Pete Lane Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 5 minutes ago, curious said: Has it been suggested that trainers are avoiding the AWTs because of safety issues? I'm not sure what Chief Stipe is suggesting actually. It's lost in a cloud of obfuscation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 5 minutes ago, Pete Lane said: I'm not sure what Chief Stipe is suggesting actually. It's lost in a cloud of obfuscation. Yes you are the master of the art of obfuscation - this post being a classic example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 25 minutes ago, Pete Lane said: In the interests of transparency can you please outline all these trainers you've spoken to who won't race at Pukekohe? I'm picking I'll be waiting a long time for an answer that isn't a load of waffle. Of course I'm not going to list the people I have spoken to specifically about these issues. They all have considerable skin in the game and as was evident after the Karaka Millions night the majority are not willing to speak publically. Whether it is a valid fear or not they don't want to make earning a living harder than it already is. They are also in between a rock and a hard place where they have to keep owners and investors happy. That's not waffle that is fact. Who have you spoken to who have a contrary opinion? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lane Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 9 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Of course I'm not going to list the people I have spoken to specifically about these issues. They all have considerable skin in the game and as was evident after the Karaka Millions night the majority are not willing to speak publically. Whether it is a valid fear or not they don't want to make earning a living harder than it already is. They are also in between a rock and a hard place where they have to keep owners and investors happy. That's not waffle that is fact. Who have you spoken to who have a contrary opinion? You can stick with arguing with yourself in this echo chamber. I've got a thriving site to run. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 23 minutes ago, Pete Lane said: You can stick with arguing with yourself in this echo chamber. I've got a thriving site to run. Classic. You fire shots but don't back up with substance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lane Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said: Classic. You fire shots but don't back up with substance. Take a look in the mirror bud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 52 minutes ago, curious said: Has it been suggested that trainers are avoiding the AWTs because of safety issues? The ones I've spoken don't mention safety issues per se. Some have concerns with consistency in terms of daily grooming. But generally most trainers I've spoken to don't like training or galloping young horses on them. As you know it is hard enough educating a young horse and keeping them sound on traditional surfaces. I'm not sure it is partly because trainers haven't adapted or it's the inherent hardness of the AWT's. Either way Trainers up north would rather travel to Taupo or Rotorua than trial on them Given the fact that most CD trainers didn't want the Awapuni one built I can't see how it will pay its way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 23 minutes ago, Pete Lane said: Take a look in the mirror bud. How many tracks have you walked on race day this year? Or even looked at from over the fence? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 Thinking about it a bit more - Pukekohe has been the sacrificial lamb for Ellerslie. Much like Ashburton is for Riccarton. As @Special Agent pointed out - don't we need all the tracks we can to spread the impact around? Auckland further suffers from the moth balling of Avondale. As Ellerslie has shown selling the assets to build a new track doesn't always give the desired result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAB For Ever Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Aren't trainers showing what they think of them by voting with their feet? For example Cambridge trials cancelled yet 23 heats yesterday at Rotorua on a heavy 10? Sure is a clear preference ,as it in early days and change is tough . But as pointed out previously there are 50 to 80 horses weekly attending jumpouts at Cambridge ,a good and cheaper alternative to trials. Not gonna help the sales potential of a horse tho....5 x trainers have told me there is often more urgency to race well at trials than there is on raceday ,when a lucrative sale is the intention ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAB For Ever Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: How many tracks have you walked on race day this year? Or even looked at from over the fence? Out of interest Chief , how many tracks on race day have you walked this year . Did you check the 'give' with your high heels , an umbrella or a spike ? Do you walk a full round , one round or many laps at different parts of track ? After all this intensive walking do you still have the enthusiasm to pass on your thoughts to the stipes ,jockeys or punters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 1 hour ago, TAB For Ever said: 5 x trainers have told me there is often more urgency to race well at trials than there is on raceday ,when a lucrative sale is the intention ! I'm surprised @Pete Lane has asked you to name the trainers! I wouldn't keen on buying a horse on the basis of a synthetic track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 53 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said: Out of interest Chief , how many tracks on race day have you walked this year . I always walk them if I have an ownership interest in a horse. This year I've walked 4 tracks. Ellerslie 3 times. 56 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said: Did you check the 'give' with your high heels , an umbrella or a spike ? None of those are really necessary. A good heel and a strong thumb can give you a good idea. I focus more on other factors than the "give". Within the Good 3 to the end of the soft range it doesn't matter what the rating is as all horses should handle it. 1 hour ago, TAB For Ever said: Do you walk a full round , one round or many laps at different parts of track ? Depends on the distance that I'm interested in. I'll walk a whole round if I can and at least the distance of interest. I'll walk different parts/lanes on the track from the point where horses will make their runs from e.g. wider on the final bend and home straight. I'll check for consistency across those lanes. Factors I'll focus on are surface evenness I.e. is the surface rough, showing wear and tear, broken and or shifty. Most horses hate it shifty and tend to hold back to protect themselves. 1 hour ago, TAB For Ever said: After all this intensive walking do you still have the enthusiasm to pass on your thoughts to the stipes ,jockeys or punters. I pass the information onto the trainer or racing manager of the horse I'm interested in. Once I recall telling the track staff at Ellerslie (2006) of a serious problem in the straight. A four foot deep hole about 15cm in circumference. Shoved a tree branch down it at about 8 am in the morning. What I have learnt is very very few Trainers or Jockeys walk the track prior to racing. Those that do have an advantage over those that don't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Agent Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 So at the end of all this discussion, taking into account field sizes, the spend and ongoing costs how many believe the AWT's have achieved the goals as set out by Winston Peters and others making them well worth the investment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 58 minutes ago, Special Agent said: So at the end of all this discussion, taking into account field sizes, the spend and ongoing costs how many believe the AWT's have achieved the goals as set out by Winston Peters and others making them well worth the investment? I don't believe they have. $30million plus would have been better spent on upgrading our existing tracks rather than building AWT's. Look at Victoria in Australia. They have less AWT's to race on than we do! We should play to our strengths. We still have strong clubs willing to keep tracks going for one or three race meetings a year and provide a decent surface to race on. As well as accommodate anyone who wants to have a go at training a horse. The flawed strategy is to close them down when in reality they are our biggest asset. Sure they might be worth more with houses built on them but thats a cost accountant approach eh @TAB For Ever ! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 Agreed with one exception and that is Cambridge. That would still have left $20 mil for existing tracks. Looking at how NZTR did a u turn on Woodville yet refuse to give them any assurance beyond this decade says they have learnt sfa and most tracks will not be ungraded and properly maintained 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted June 15 Author Share Posted June 15 Trentham has become Whanganui in the winter, utterly hopeless. NZ racing is an utter shambles and cannot last beyond the next few years. You would have some hope if it wasn't being run by a circus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeynz Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 12 minutes ago, Huey said: Trentham has become Whanganui in the winter, utterly hopeless. NZ racing is an utter shambles and cannot last beyond the next few years. You would have some hope if it wasn't being run by a circus. Wasn't watching today but sometimes you wonder if NZ should basically shut down for winter, sometimes a break can rejuvenate interest too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted June 15 Author Share Posted June 15 3 minutes ago, mikeynz said: Wasn't watching today but sometimes you wonder if NZ should basically shut down for winter, sometimes a break can rejuvenate interest too. I sometimes wonder if it should shutdown for good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 13 hours ago, mikeynz said: Wasn't watching today but sometimes you wonder if NZ should basically shut down for winter, sometimes a break can rejuvenate interest too. ..and then we have The Cossack..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 On 13/06/2024 at 2:47 PM, Special Agent said: So at the end of all this discussion, taking into account field sizes, the spend and ongoing costs how many believe the AWT's have achieved the goals as set out by Winston Peters and others making them well worth the investment? For training surface consistency, yes..and by allowing horses to be trained and raced over months when wet tracks are a problem to some, there is certainly a benefit for those horses being maintained in training. So, definitely worth the investment from the perspective of owners/trainers. But I'm not sure whether Winston's ideas went as far as training conditions, rather he was focused on race day abandonments. And, as we know that race days cost more than they generate in betting revenue, 'saving' a lost day merely costs more, rather than helping the overall malaise. And what will happen when these tracks need re-surfacing? Does Entain ride to our aid again? How long will there be a bucket of dosh without any accountability? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lane Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 1 hour ago, Freda said: For training surface consistency, yes..and by allowing horses to be trained and raced over months when wet tracks are a problem to some, there is certainly a benefit for those horses being maintained in training. So, definitely worth the investment from the perspective of owners/trainers. But I'm not sure whether Winston's ideas went as far as training conditions, rather he was focused on race day abandonments. And, as we know that race days cost more than they generate in betting revenue, 'saving' a lost day merely costs more, rather than helping the overall malaise. And what will happen when these tracks need re-surfacing? Does Entain ride to our aid again? How long will there be a bucket of dosh without any accountability? Don't want to be negative but there will come a point when Entain take a look at what they're doing in NZ and decide it's not commercially viable. At the moment they're spraying money around but it won't last. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 2 hours ago, Pete Lane said: Don't want to be negative but there will come a point when Entain take a look at what they're doing in NZ and decide it's not commercially viable. At the moment they're spraying money around but it won't last. I don't think being realistic is negative at all. If more folk faced reality instead of dancing around like every day from here on is Christmas, there might be some will to achieve real change. But at the moment the rose-tinted specs are firmly in place. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Fish Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 3 hours ago, Freda said: I don't think being realistic is negative at all. Tick, many I think struggle to understand the difference between Critical and Negative! Many can then take it personal! Especially so 'on-line!'! I be very thankful that life has given me a thick skin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 The intriguing aspect of NZ involvement with Entain is that the parent company of Entain is reviewing its commitments as to what is or isn't their core, (read profitable) business. They may well decide that waiting to make a profit In four years time and beyond in a small market has little appeal. As to the comments re negative, critical and realistic, I would point out that being critical is too judge with severity whilst being negative typically lacks in constructiveness. Given the assurances and promises from NZTR over the years of this decade regarding tracks and their poor condition I would state strongly that most on this site re this particular subject have been realistic in their views. A realist is one who tends to view things as THEY REALLY ARE! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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