Racing Victoria see the light and shift stakes downwards to lower grades.

[curious]

Yes. The stakes there are the stakes, not just the NZTR contributions, so include sponsorship and sweepstake contributions etc. However, that still provides a reasonable reflection of betting interest cf. stakes however those are funded.

[Murray Fish]

5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Ok Gotcha.  If Kumara is at the top of the heap and not covering stakes then there is a lot of subsidisation going on elsewhere!!!

so, Everyone has their hands out! please sir!  Politics rules! 

Edited August 27, 2024 by Murray Fish

[Huey]

19 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Looking at the Karaka Million night (at the bottom of the list) wouldn't you have to adjust the $4.5m for sweepstake holder and ATR contributions?

You can't put a price on all those expensive yearlings being sold!

[Chief Stipe]

19 minutes ago, Huey said:

You can't put a price on all those expensive yearlings being sold!

Uh?!  Your post takes the BOAY Abstruse Post Annual Prize - the BAPAP.

[TAB For Ever]

On 8/26/2024 at 5:13 PM, curious said:

I think you've entirely missed the point here @TAB For Ever.  What RV have done here is exactly what you say, reduced stakes for some top races with funds redistributed to boost grassroots initiatives. So, for example, taking prize money from the All Star and Australian Cup and diverting it to both boost money for other top level races where warranted as well as lower level races, picnic meetings in particular, by 40%.  This appears to be driven by the downturn in wagering and is designed to maximise returns to participants and owners, apparently to bring prize money more into line with the wagering revenue generated by events. That is not what is happening here if you haven't noticed. General stakes increases that you have noted are NOT in line with the relative wagering revenue generated by those events, even though they may have been increased. It's that misalignment that RV seem to be trying to remedy but has become increasingly out of whack here.

No point missed.......the heading of post quite misleading IMO.

Six races , a couple of the abject failures have had stakes lowered , but six races upped in stake along with some warm fuzzies about maiden races  , a category which Australia has ignored for years. If NZTR pulled this one they would be ridiculed on here for BS and spin etc 

Just as the top end races and their publicity from NZTR are ridiculed yet the lowest stakes have been steadily and consistently improved.

The mention of Picnic races is an interesting one.....maybe the clubs who feel disadvantaged  in NZ and are losing dates could run these .They are promoted heavily in Aussie ,big social / family days and often run on Public holidays and or strategic days ...eg Melbourne Cup day They have the tote/bookies for bettng ant other meetings ! A few years doing great Picnic days could see clubs back on the TAB calendar. Pirongia used to run a good 'social' day on Boxing day .

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, TAB For Ever said:

No point missed.......the heading of post quite misleading IMO.

Six races , a couple of the abject failures have had stakes lowered , but six races upped in stake along with some warm fuzzies about maiden races  , a category which Australia has ignored for years. If NZTR pulled this one they would be ridiculed on here for BS and spin etc 

Just as the top end races and their publicity from NZTR are ridiculed yet the lowest stakes have been steadily and consistently improved.

The mention of Picnic races is an interesting one.....maybe the clubs who feel disadvantaged  in NZ and are losing dates could run these .They are promoted heavily in Aussie ,big social / family days and often run on Public holidays and or strategic days ...eg Melbourne Cup day They have the tote/bookies for bettng ant other meetings ! A few years doing great Picnic days could see clubs back on the TAB calendar. Pirongia used to run a good 'social' day on Boxing day .

Still missing the point.  Obviously you only read the headline and the first paragraph.

[TAB For Ever]

On 8/27/2024 at 1:00 PM, curious said:

Here's the bottom 20 on that basis for comparison. @TAB For Ever may like to comment.

Looks like I being called out to comment on two charts giving meetings with the best and poorest %'s and ratios when comparing  stakes paid to total wagering.

Firstly I can't understand how any one can waste time on this line of thinking  ,let alone come to any conclusions which will help our ailing industry.As it happens our rest-home's TV has packed up so I have some time to waste !

The lists are very obvious , I could have named them off the cuff ,easy to predict. Over the years the NZ racing ....all codes have developed a calendar which has suited the NZ lifestyle and weather well. But many Clubs did rest on their laurels early in 2000 and things began to wane and even in our best period early November to end of January took a hit especially Harness with a lot of bad publicity re Integrity etc.

But Kudos to the TAB and the Codes for upping the promotion of Industry ...the Melbourne Cup had huge promotion and Summer racing and Christmas at the Races brought big crowds and record punting ,new customers etc And there were plenty of races around the time that most of NZ is on holiday. In some areas BYO drinks was forbidden and there was some resistance about clubs charging an entrance fee which continues today .

SO IN BRIEF ,ALL THOSE MEETINGS IN OUR GOLDEN TIMEFRAME, especially Boxing day to 10 January , do real well. Often at gallops there are some small fields of largely maiden and one win plodders...no worries the few times a year punters have recovered from the giddy heights of Melbourne Cup day and happy to get a family summer pass to races.

I bat for both teams so I can put my Harness overlay over the gallops and see that Harness  often does even better than the Gallops[ in South Island].

On the list of worst performed obviously the meetings with the bloated Group 1 stakes do worst but as our adored Aussie neighbours tell us they provide a halo effect and so crucial to the future. 

Northern trainers may like taking their horses to the West Coast [South Island] for one week but would they repeat it five times in a year ? Plus other than Kumara's iconic meeting the other tracks not so flash ,Harness does better. In fact Harness betting stacks up on Sundays extremely well throughout season at Country meetings.That could change.An Oct Ashburton gallops meeting was on 'winners' list possibly cos warm favs won most races apart from 2 x $40 shots winning and the trusty TAB offering boosted $50k First 4 ,which they often do at Harness which has the Aussies throwing money our way.
So little one -off blips can affect comparisons of single meetings. Hence a waste of time IMO.

Some FACTS......the biggest betting race on NZTAB calendar is not even a NZ race [ Zero stake !!!!!! ]Melbourne Cup 

.                      .....the biggest NZ meeting for betting is on a non -holiday Tuesday.....NZ Trotting Cup

                         ...the next biggest turnover days are the Group 1 days .

A cynic could say lets lower all NZ stakes to Industry level locally ,and promote and market the big Australian races. And close more tracks unless they have the cash reserves to sustain 10 to 15 meetings a year. To earn dates clubs would need to establish a cash flow from outside of racing , engage with the community and start out like the Picnic clubs in Aussie with pony races , small owner/trainers and Amateur jockeys. May even save jumping.

Oh ,and sell what tracks we can...Avondale would be nice and build a couple of high-spec tracks with training facilities .Challenge  Ellerslie as  top-dog and leave them to concentrate  on running conferences and school balls ! They very good at that !

............................

[Chief Stipe]

7 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

As it happens our rest-home's TV has packed up so I have some time to waste !

You realise you can now stream TV on your laptop or smart phone.  It is advantageous in that you don't have watch what Betty in row three at the rest home wants to watch.

[Chief Stipe]

8 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

Looks like I being called out to comment on two charts giving meetings with the best and poorest %'s and ratios when comparing  stakes paid to total wagering.

Firstly I can't understand how any one can waste time on this line of thinking  ,let alone come to any conclusions which will help our ailing industry.As it happens our rest-home's TV has packed up so I have some time to waste !

The lists are very obvious , I could have named them off the cuff ,easy to predict. Over the years the NZ racing ....all codes have developed a calendar which has suited the NZ lifestyle and weather well. But many Clubs did rest on their laurels early in 2000 and things began to wane and even in our best period early November to end of January took a hit especially Harness with a lot of bad publicity re Integrity etc.

But Kudos to the TAB and the Codes for upping the promotion of Industry ...the Melbourne Cup had huge promotion and Summer racing and Christmas at the Races brought big crowds and record punting ,new customers etc And there were plenty of races around the time that most of NZ is on holiday. In some areas BYO drinks was forbidden and there was some resistance about clubs charging an entrance fee which continues today .

SO IN BRIEF ,ALL THOSE MEETINGS IN OUR GOLDEN TIMEFRAME, especially Boxing day to 10 January , do real well. Often at gallops there are some small fields of largely maiden and one win plodders...no worries the few times a year punters have recovered from the giddy heights of Melbourne Cup day and happy to get a family summer pass to races.

I bat for both teams so I can put my Harness overlay over the gallops and see that Harness  often does even better than the Gallops[ in South Island].

On the list of worst performed obviously the meetings with the bloated Group 1 stakes do worst but as our adored Aussie neighbours tell us they provide a halo effect and so crucial to the future. 

Northern trainers may like taking their horses to the West Coast [South Island] for one week but would they repeat it five times in a year ? Plus other than Kumara's iconic meeting the other tracks not so flash ,Harness does better. In fact Harness betting stacks up on Sundays extremely well throughout season at Country meetings.That could change.An Oct Ashburton gallops meeting was on 'winners' list possibly cos warm favs won most races apart from 2 x $40 shots winning and the trusty TAB offering boosted $50k First 4 ,which they often do at Harness which has the Aussies throwing money our way.
So little one -off blips can affect comparisons of single meetings. Hence a waste of time IMO.

Some FACTS......the biggest betting race on NZTAB calendar is not even a NZ race [ Zero stake !!!!!! ]Melbourne Cup 

.                      .....the biggest NZ meeting for betting is on a non -holiday Tuesday.....NZ Trotting Cup

                         ...the next biggest turnover days are the Group 1 days .

A cynic could say lets lower all NZ stakes to Industry level locally ,and promote and market the big Australian races. And close more tracks unless they have the cash reserves to sustain 10 to 15 meetings a year. To earn dates clubs would need to establish a cash flow from outside of racing , engage with the community and start out like the Picnic clubs in Aussie with pony races , small owner/trainers and Amateur jockeys. May even save jumping.

Oh ,and sell what tracks we can...Avondale would be nice and build a couple of high-spec tracks with training facilities .Challenge  Ellerslie as  top-dog and leave them to concentrate  on running conferences and school balls ! They very good at that !

............................

I can't be bothered commenting on this spin.  I read similar speels of nonsense for the last 25 years. 

But what I will say is:  the table in @curious post shows that not one meeting makes more revenue than the stakes that are paid.  That is they all run at a loss from their core business.  Hence the subsidies from ENTAIN shareholders and the Government keeping things going.

The question is - is that sustainable? 

[Murray Fish]

11 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

Christmas at the Races brought big crowds and record punting ,new customers etc

sigh, this in a nut shell shows off your need to be Pollyanna...   

These Events were already hard wired into the social fabric!

[Chief Stipe]

18 minutes ago, Murray Fish said:

sigh, this in a nut shell shows off your need to be Pollyanna...   

These Events were already hard wired into the social fabric!

Everytime someone posts the name Pollyanna I think they are referring to the AWT's.

[Freda]

5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I can't be bothered commenting on this spin.  I read similar speels of nonsense for the last 25 years. 

But what I will say is:  the table in @curious post shows that not one meeting makes more revenue than the stakes that are paid.  That is they all run at a loss from their core business.  Hence the subsidies from ENTAIN shareholders and the Government keeping things going.

The question is - is that sustainable? 

Of course it isn't.

Curious - and others - have been pointing that out for the best part of two decades.   

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, Freda said:

Of course it isn't.

Curious - and others - have been pointing that out for the best part of two decades.   

Have you seen anything done in the last 5 years to turn it around?

[Freda]

Nope.

[Freda]

Just more money from non-core activities to subsidise us.

Make no mistake, I'm as happy to get a chance at a decent stake as the next person.  

But those charged with leading us out of the abyss seem as oblivious as ever to the path to the Promised Land.

[Chief Stipe]

39 minutes ago, Freda said:

Just more money from non-core activities to subsidise us.

Make no mistake, I'm as happy to get a chance at a decent stake as the next person.  

But those charged with leading us out of the abyss seem as oblivious as ever to the path to the Promised Land.

I agree regarding the stakes.  However I got fooled once before.  Remember Winnies million dollar races!!  An unsustainable sugar hit.

[Murray Fish]

8 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Everytime someone posts the name Pollyanna I think they are referring to the AWT's.

I use  (and I presume @TAB For Ever would agree

What is a Pollyanna personality type?

 

 

Pollyanna attitude means positive thinking i.e. acknowledging both negative and positive events and choosing to focus on the positive aspects rather than the negative ones. Today, “Pollyanna” is a common label and proponent of optimism, gratitude and eventually happiness.

 

[Chief Stipe]

29 minutes ago, Murray Fish said:

I use  (and I presume @TAB For Ever would agree

What is a Pollyanna personality type?

 

 

Pollyanna attitude means positive thinking i.e. acknowledging both negative and positive events and choosing to focus on the positive aspects rather than the negative ones. Today, “Pollyanna” is a common label and proponent of optimism, gratitude and eventually happiness.

 

A dreamer?

[Murray Fish]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

A dreamer?

ummm,  a provocateur!  pokes and prods! on getting a response! Cries 'oh poor me'.

It's always amusing to surmise whom a @TAB For Ever or a @Doomed might be, in person?  

Back in the early 90's, in Wellington Region, there was a  thriving little Bullitinboard scene, 'we' organised a get together.  50 turned up! I think about 42 actually didn't know 1 other person, though knew via the Board! A very eclectic lot, heavily male! rather Nerdy! Many went on to Bigger Things! 

[TAB For Ever]

14 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I can't be bothered commenting on this spin.  I read similar speels of nonsense for the last 25 years. 

But what I will say is:  the table in @curious post shows that not one meeting makes more revenue than the stakes that are paid.  That is they all run at a loss from their core business.  Hence the subsidies from ENTAIN shareholders and the Government keeping things going.

The question is - is that sustainable? 

Come on Chief , firstly it was a surprise you started this post ,especially with your heading and secondly you got caught up with two confusing charts of single meetings which told us very little ,and I'd hope that you would know in business that you don't bank percentages.

All this concerned you for 25 years , maybe it time to consider some CHANGE !

I'd like to correct an error I made.......the biggest day for betting on a NZ race day was not the NZ Trotting Cup day on a Tuesday with $7.5 mill [ 13 races ] but the 2024 Karaka Day with only 6 races...yes $9.5 mill..The final race of day was the record for single race $2.6 mill beating NZ Trot Cup 2022.

On Karaka Day there were 48,000  kiwis used their phones to bet [up from 36,000]

So even 2% of Karaka may be better than 10% of Kumara or Kurow.

Of course Karaka puts $300k thru bar and all Hospitalty full to so the club profits there ,but that another story .

Back to Melbourne Cup Day NZTAB took a record $28 mill for day with $13.4 bet on the big race.

The TAB's profit on this day is not from non-core activities !

The Kumara  and Kurow numbers don't include the NZTR funding and extra costs for trackside etc to attend.

In 2023 Kumara got $140k for stakes but NZTR funding was $230 k.So a NBR  of 10% leaves it short so yes ,few if any meetings would 'make money ' on day for TAB.

Thats why the NZ TAB is fully involved in promoting Aussie racing.....Everest was huge last year ......Aussie racing is CORE business. Also SPORT now is one-third of Betting Revenue.

And last time I looked  Kiwis bet more on Aussie racing with the NZ TAB than they did on NZ Racing !

I hope you read this spiel......and you get time to digest it. 25 years is a long time to be listening to spin.

Take in these facts and you loyal antique followers may do similar.

CHANGE the way you look at things and the things you look at will change !

Edited August 29, 2024 by TAB For Ever
Spelling

[Doomed]

8 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I agree regarding the stakes.  However I got fooled once before.  Remember Winnies million dollar races!!  An unsustainable sugar hit.

Chief! Surely you didn't get fooled by that? It was lunacy from go to whoa.

[Chief Stipe]

28 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said:

Come on Chief , firstly it was a surprise you started this post ,especially with your heading and secondly you got caught up with two confusing charts of single meetings which told us very little ,and I'd hope that you would know in business that you don't bank percentages.

All this concerned you for 25 years , maybe it time to consider some CHANGE !

I'd like to correct an error I made.......the biggest day for betting on a NZ race day was not the NZ Trotting Cup day on a Tuesday with $7.5 mill [ 13 races ] but the 2024 Karaka Day with only 6 races...yes $9.5 mill..The final race of day was the record for single race $2.6 mill beating NZ Trot Cup 2022.

On Karaka Day there were 48,000  kiwis used their phones to bet [up from 36,000]

So even 2% of Karaka may be better than 10% of Kumara or Kurow.

Of course Karaka puts $300k thru bar and all Hospitalty full to so the club profits there ,but that another story .

Back to Melbourne Cup Day NZTAB took a record $28 mill for day with $13.4 bet on the big race.

The TAB's profit on this day is not from non-core activities !

The Kumara  and Kurow numbers don't include the NZTR funding and extra costs for trackside etc to attend.

In 2023 Kumara got $140k for stakes but NZTR funding was $230 k.So a NBR  of 10% leaves it short so yes ,few if any meetings would 'make money ' on day for TAB.

Thats why the NZ TAB is fully involved in promoting Aussie racing.....Everest was huge last year ......Aussie racing is CORE business. Also SPORT now is one-third of Betting Revenue.

And last time I looked  Kiwis bet more on Aussie racing with the NZ TAB than they did on NZ Racing !

I hope you read this spiel......and you get time to digest it. 25 years is a long time to be listening to spin.

Take in these facts and you loyal antique followers may do similar.

CHANGE the way you look at things and the things you look at will change !

BS. Are ENTAIN making a profit in NZ?

[TAB For Ever]

27 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

BS. Are ENTAIN making a profit in NZ?

Of course not.....they working thru their strategic plan ,and few businesses make money in their first year !

They just getting started......gotta admit they hit a few milestones in their first year and they done a lot of things that even the most derelict critics said need doing !

Their plan to push Thoroughbred ownership experience will start soon .

Their Adverts are being noticed , sports betting continues to flourish , sure to be plenty of action packed moments over summer.Dean shannon should feature in many of our Group 1 Harness races !

Doing better than I thought they would [ Entain].

Don't forget NZ Racing was on the ropes...join in ,you may enjoy the ride !

This thread seems to have broken your stride !

I forgot that Entain has planned a Mega-maiden series to start soon with several races in South Island...40 x races with $20k to winning owner , $5k to trainer. Well received and will be sought after !

Edited August 29, 2024 by TAB For Ever
Spelling

[Chief Stipe]

10 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said:

Their plan to push Thoroughbred ownership experience will start soon

Really?  Who feeds you this stuff?  How many horses are required each year for owners to buy to race to enable ENTAIN to make a profit?  Asking for a friend.

[Chief Stipe]

11 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said:

Doing better than I thought they would [ Entain]

What did you think they'd do?  What metrics are you using?  A feel good factor or finger in the ear?