Tonkatime! Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 22 minutes ago, Flagship uberalles said: Are they putting the bet on through a tab account when they are betting on course? I assume they aren't taking cash up to the window or putting it on the visa card? If they are doing it by way of tab account they are entitled to a rebate as they would turnover more than an elite punter would in a year...... in one day...... They use the tab terminals on course rather than an account. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brando Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 34 minutes ago, Flagship uberalles said: Are they putting the bet on through a tab account when they are betting on course? I assume they aren't taking cash up to the window or putting it on the visa card? If they are doing it by way of tab account they are entitled to a rebate as they would turnover more than an elite punter would in a year...... in one day...... Maybe they should bet with a TAB account, then based on their turnover on Karaka Millions day, they would qualify for the Bronze Tier of rebates and rewards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brando Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 41 minutes ago, mardigras said: The club can and should do what it likes. But NZRB should not pay rebates to a customer that doesn't lose money with them. With the plethora of wagering providers availabe to a NZ based punter, why shouldn't NZTAB incentivise with rebates, to retain their more valued customers whether they are winning or losing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 19 minutes ago, Tonkatime! said: They use the tab terminals on course rather than an account. I would have thought that using an account would have been more transparent for all the members. Plus you could easily put the account up on a big screen to show the BGP's what was happening. I thought these bright young things would be into that. The TAB could easily adjust on-course figures accordingly if benefits the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flagship uberalles Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 26 minutes ago, Tonkatime! said: They use the tab terminals on course rather than an account. Ok, all via betting voucher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 13 minutes ago, Brando said: With the plethora of wagering providers availabe to a NZ based punter, why shouldn't NZTAB incentivise with rebates, to retain their more valued customers whether they are winning or losing? Outside of potential hospitality benefits, how is a winning punter valuable to NZRB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, mardigras said: Outside of potential hospitality benefits, how is a winning punter valuable to NZRB? The fact is they aren't valuable unless others are losing. Tote betting negates that risk by adjusting the odds immediately. Fixed Odds betting has increased risk because the bets can be laid at set prices and would lead to reduced margins or even losses. Is that correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: The fact is they aren't valuable unless others are losing. Tote betting negates that risk by adjusting the odds immediately. Fixed Odds betting has increased risk because the bets can be laid at set prices and would lead to reduced margins or even losses. Is that correct? On the tote, they are not valuable as a winning tote punter will increase the rate of losses of the other punters, and the actual revenue from tote betting is equal to the sum of losses from losing punters, less the sum of profit from winning punters. Losing punters don't just keep forking out more and more. Reading the NZRB annual report will indicate that. Take away the winning tote punter leaves NZRB getting all of the losses from losing punters. Leave them in (and even give them a rebate) leaves NZRB with less than that. Fixed odds rebates to winning punters is madness as well. There is no NZRB revenue derived from fixed odds bets made by a winning punter. And then some want to pay them more for fleecing them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 5 minutes ago, mardigras said: On the tote, they are not valuable as a winning tote punter will increase the rate of losses of the other punters, and the actual revenue from tote betting is equal to the sum of losses from losing punters, less the sum of profit from winning punters. Losing punters don't just keep forking out more and more. Reading the NZRB annual report will indicate that. Take away the winning tote punter leaves NZRB getting all of the losses from losing punters. Leave them in (and even give them a rebate) leaves NZRB with less than that. Fixed odds rebates to winning punters is madness as well. There is no NZRB revenue derived from fixed odds bets made by a winning punter. And then some want to pay them more for fleecing them. That makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brando Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, mardigras said: On the tote, they are not valuable as a winning tote punter will increase the rate of losses of the other punters, and the actual revenue from tote betting is equal to the sum of losses from losing punters, less the sum of profit from winning punters. Losing punters don't just keep forking out more and more. Reading the NZRB annual report will indicate that. Take away the winning tote punter leaves NZRB getting all of the losses from losing punters. Leave them in (and even give them a rebate) leaves NZRB with less than that. Fixed odds rebates to winning punters is madness as well. There is no NZRB revenue derived from fixed odds bets made by a winning punter. And then some want to pay them more for fleecing them. I'm no expert on these things, hence why I'm asking. With comingled tote pools, especially with Hong Kong: Doesn't the winning money from those massive pools by a NZ punter, equate to new revenue when reinvested into NZ pools which Hong Kong punters aren't permiited to bet into? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonkatime! Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 48 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: I would have thought that using an account would have been more transparent for all the members. Plus you could easily put the account up on a big screen to show the BGP's what was happening. I thought these bright young things would be into that. The TAB could easily adjust on-course figures accordingly if benefits the club. There maybe difficulty getting the money into an account with the money laundering legislation. I know of a couple of people who have gone to put money into there partners account and been refused. Also I am assuming accounts have to be in an individuals name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 5 minutes ago, Tonkatime! said: There maybe difficulty getting the money into an account with the money laundering legislation. I know of a couple of people who have gone to put money into there partners account and been refused. Also I am assuming accounts have to be in an individuals name? Isn't the money collected BEFORE the event? I'm sure the TAB would accommodate the transfer of a large sum before the event. Surely that is no different to depositing a large sum on course when taking a bet? Do they turn up with a suitcase of $170k in notes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mk2_Zephyr Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) Maybe the leaders of this club, should be examined a more closely, relating to funds, or administration costs ? Where does the money sit in between race meetings ? Edited February 11, 2019 by Mk2_Zephyr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 16 minutes ago, Mk2_Zephyr said: Maybe the leaders of this club, should be examined a more closely, relating to funds, or administration costs ? Where does the money sit in between race meetings ? I think that is irrelevant. Buyer beware and all that. I'm sure they have got good records in case they are challenged. The issue is - yes they are a bit of fresh year when it comes to enthusiasm but why the hell didn't the TAB come up with the concept? Afterall they have a mega mega millions in marketing budgets! I wouldn't like to see rebates offered for their betting however surely the NZRB marketing team can work with them to promote the racing code? If that is where their strategy is of course. From what I've heard it was difficult to get NZRB to even engage with them hence they set up an overseas account for betting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 From what i have seen, its pretty well run. Look at these Facebook posts. Punters seem very happy, so good on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: I would have thought that using an account would have been more transparent for all the members. Plus you could easily put the account up on a big screen to show the BGP's what was happening. I thought these bright young things would be into that. The TAB could easily adjust on-course figures accordingly if benefits the club. They are supporting racing clubs, by investing on course, club recieve an extra cut that they would not if bets placed on tab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Newmarket said: They are supporting racing clubs, by investing on course, club recieve an extra cut that they would not if bets placed on tab Therefore the clubs should encourage them via free facilities, entry etc. Seems a bit self defeating then to let them have rebates on their betting as ultimately the clubs pays for the loss of revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 1 hour ago, mardigras said: On the tote, they are not valuable as a winning tote punter will increase the rate of losses of the other punters, and the actual revenue from tote betting is equal to the sum of losses from losing punters, less the sum of profit from winning punters. Losing punters don't just keep forking out more and more. Reading the NZRB annual report will indicate that. Take away the winning tote punter leaves NZRB getting all of the losses from losing punters. Leave them in (and even give them a rebate) leaves NZRB with less than that. Fixed odds rebates to winning punters is madness as well. There is no NZRB revenue derived from fixed odds bets made by a winning punter. And then some want to pay them more for fleecing them. Crazy statement. These guys generate huge turnover on course, so if they keep winning the club profits more. If they keep winning, clubs will want them to turn up. If they win, obviously some are losing, probably thru tab, but this wont affect the club will it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 13 minutes ago, Newmarket said: Crazy statement. These guys generate huge turnover on course, so if they keep winning the club profits more. If they keep winning, clubs will want them to turn up. If they win, obviously some are losing, probably thru tab, but this wont affect the club will it. That's the point that Mardigras is making. It will affect the club. The club benefits more if they lose as other punters are likely to bet more. On the tote most lose and a few win. Fixed odds - well if you beat the bookie then everyone loses except the winner. Also the assumption is that BGP keep turning over the total sum each race which they don't. Sure way to lose as Mardi points out. For example if they had $100k which they spent on the first race and lost. Their contribution to turnover would be $100k - their contribution to revenue around $17k. If they kept winning and betting $100k (assuming they pocket the profit) then their contribution to turnover for the day would be $1m however their contribution to revenue wouldn't be $170k because the difference has been made up by other's losses. This is assuming that they are betting entirely on the tote. Now if all the pool prize money is going to one big heap e.g. the BGP heap then all the other punters are running out of dosh so will probably punt less or stop altogether unless they have a kind wife who allows them to use the housekeeping money for the week. So yes BGP contribute to turnover but only to revenue if they lose. Have I got that right Mardi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Newmarket said: Crazy statement. These guys generate huge turnover on course, so if they keep winning the club profits more. If they keep winning, clubs will want them to turn up. If they win, obviously some are losing, probably thru tab, but this wont affect the club will it. So the club's they attend like Ellerslie get more whilst the industry as a whole gets less. Brilliant. Very much in line with NZTR policy as well. Well done. I'm not talking about losers, I'm talking about paying rebates to winners. Can you point me to the part where clubs get a % of fixed odds betting. Edited February 11, 2019 by mardigras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasel Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Ok, the Mustelid is going to state what appears (to said Mustelid) to be The Obvious. Why don't we start a BOAYS GET PAID (BOAYERS GET PAID??) CLUB just to totally befuddle NZTR/TAB ?? And to have some fun, of course. Don't need Facebook, we've got this site! FOR BOAY members only. wHAT Shall we say ...minimum deposit $500 or multiples thereof ..??.close it off at/near end of Feb and punt through March and April only; thoroughbreds only, no sports betting, and finish at the end of the NSW carnival approx 8-10 weeks max. I realise Jason has a pUNTERS Club going but that's for most of the year. What would that do for site traffic volumes, Chief?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, Weasel said: Ok, the Mustelid is going to state what appears (to said Mustelid) to be The Obvious. Why don't we start a BOAYS GET PAID (BOAYERS GET PAID??) CLUB just to totally befuddle NZTR/TAB ?? And to have some fun, of course. Don't need Facebook, we've got this site! FOR BOAY members only. wHAT Shall we say ...minimum deposit $500 or multiples thereof ..??.close it off at/near end of Feb and punt through March and April only; thoroughbreds only, no sports betting, and finish at the end of the NSW carnival approx 8-10 weeks max. I realise Jason has a pUNTERS Club going but that's for most of the year. What would that do for site traffic volumes, Chief?? Not a stupid idea. But it would have to be set up with controls in place. Maybe Reefton acting as auditor etc. I can see the headline now - BOAY vs BGP - head to head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 26 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Therefore the clubs should encourage them via free facilities, entry etc. Seems a bit self defeating then to let them have rebates on their betting as ultimately the clubs pays for the loss of revenue. Well i think clubs do look after them. Their point is, they should also get rebates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Brando said: I'm no expert on these things, hence why I'm asking. With comingled tote pools, especially with Hong Kong: Doesn't the winning money from those massive pools by a NZ punter, equate to new revenue when reinvested into NZ pools which Hong Kong punters aren't permiited to bet into? For sure. If a NZ punter managed to win from non NZ pools, the reconciliation would provude NZ TAB with the funds to pay the punter, leaving them with their allowable takeout (less race fields fees). Previously NZRB have reported that the reconciliation process was causing NZ TAB to owe Tabcorp, which means NZ punters were being outperformed by their Australian counterparts on commingled events. Which makes the reconciliation process a negative, not a positive as NZ punters overall lose at a rate faster than the takeout rate would suggest they should. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Newmarket said: Well i think clubs do look after them. Their point is, they should also get rebates. If I buy from your shop but you make zero gross revenue from me, will you give me a rebate? Edited February 11, 2019 by mardigras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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