INCA finally finished. Result: ZERO.

[Spatchcock]

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

That's not entirely correct and at best is speculation.

However those recordings could have been used in a criminal court but the Judge ruled that the evidence wasn't sufficient to prove guilt.

So the question is why should an Agency such as the RIU(RIB) have a lesser threshold?  The RIB can't have it both ways where they remove someone's license because of a conviction in a higher court.

"We didn't get you in the High Court but we'll get you in our lesser court using the evidence that won't get a conviction in the higher court!"

Remember Teina Pora?

I am not going to harp on on this, but I have read at least some of the transcripts and it very clearly shows blatant breaches of the rules of racing by a couple of people.
As the case is now closed, I won't elaborate on who they are or what those rules were.
But rest assured I read this with my own eyes and it's not up for debate.
I sympathise with all concerned who had to foot huge legal bills for six years. It became a joke and clearly this was not fit for purpose when it comes to criminal proceedings.
but the rules of racing are a different beast, with a lower threshold and unique rules to be applied.
Note: what I am talking about does not relate to the race or story at the top of this page.
 

[Chief Stipe]

14 hours ago, Spatchcock said:

but the rules of racing are a different beast, with a lower threshold and unique rules to be applied.

Should they be?  Why should Racing apply a higher standard (a lower conviction threshold) than higher courts?  

For example a licensee could be convicted of a minor drug offence in Court, be discharged with a probationary period or fined and/or given community service.  Racing then has another go at the person and often penalises them by suspending their license and thus removing their livelihood.  Why? 

If the Police couldn't nail a match fixing charge in the criminal court because of a lack of evidence why should the RIU/RIB (who have often acted like Keystone Cops) be able to apply some vague rules and finish the livelihood of a licensee?  Or ban an owner?

We now have the ridiculous situation of where Stipes with absolutely zero experience in driving or riding a horse in a race determining whether or not a driver made the right split second decision.  The driver making the wrong decision has already cost themselves but then the Stipes double down and punish them again!  With no evidence of financial gain.

[Nowornever]

I think I can now say I told you so.

 

Quite easy to see the outcome very early on. 

[Chief Stipe]

14 minutes ago, Nowornever said:

I think I can now say I told you so.

 

Quite easy to see the outcome very early on. 

Mind you that was paying $1.10.

[Nowornever]

12 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Mind you that was paying $1.10.

The annoying part is there is no accountability by the idiots pursuing this from the start. 

They should be sacked and publicly denounced as the most incompetent bunch of no hopers in the business after the waste of industry resources.

[Chief Stipe]

8 minutes ago, Nowornever said:

The annoying part is there is no accountability by the idiots pursuing this from the start. 

They should be sacked and publicly denounced as the most incompetent bunch of no hopers in the business after the waste of industry resources.

Yeah well the main driver of the whole affair had already been let go from his previous job.

As far as I know still has a job.

[the galah]

15 minutes ago, Nowornever said:

The annoying part is there is no accountability by the idiots pursuing this from the start. 

They should be sacked and publicly denounced as the most incompetent bunch of no hopers in the business after the waste of industry resources.

Like i have said 100 times on this forum,what you have just said is the way a significant part of the people in the harness racing bubble think.

for perspective,i say many don't think like that. 

I for one think, that people in harness racing for decades,at different points,have pushed the boundaries of what they can get away with as far as whats acceptable.

the difference about inca,was that someone finally drew a line in the sand.

what or who pre empted that,is incidental.

It was always going to happen at some point. I knew it,i talked about it on the odd occasion. Not much as people just roll their eyes as if your anti harness racing. Well far from it actually.Others must have known it had to happen one day,surely.

It just so happened,unfortunately for those involved,the stars aligned for them to carry not only their current,but past burdens of others pushing the boundaries.And unfortunately for those involved,this time,far more resources were used to establish wrong doing.

So,for me,if you want to apportion blame,which everyone seems to want to do,then don't forget to start with the people whose actions(those charged) created enough evidence for the police to believe spending large amouts of $ on pursuing the investigation,was warranted.

Thats my final comment about operation inca.

[Rangatira]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

don't forget to start with the people whose actions(those charged) created enough evidence for the police to believe spending large amouts of $ on pursuing the investigation,was warranted.

Created enough something, maybe innuendo at best, but most certainly no evidence deemed worthy of being tested in court.

Money comes from a seemingly bottomless pit but none the less unwarranted given the result.

17 months was it ?

It is bizarre. 

Edited November 28, 2024 by Rangatira

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

Thats my final comment about operation inca.

Thankfully.

[Rangatira]

8 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

If the Police couldn't nail a match fixing charge in the criminal court because of a lack of evidence why should the RIU/RIB (who have often acted like Keystone Cops) be able to apply some vague rules and finish the livelihood of a licensee?  Or ban an owner?

 

[Spatchcock]

9 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Should they be?  Why should Racing apply a higher standard (a lower conviction threshold) than higher courts?  

For example a licensee could be convicted of a minor drug offence in Court, be discharged with a probationary period or fined and/or given community service.  Racing then has another go at the person and often penalises them by suspending their license and thus removing their livelihood.  Why? 

If the Police couldn't nail a match fixing charge in the criminal court because of a lack of evidence why should the RIU/RIB (who have often acted like Keystone Cops) be able to apply some vague rules and finish the livelihood of a licensee?  Or ban an owner?

We now have the ridiculous situation of where Stipes with absolutely zero experience in driving or riding a horse in a race determining whether or not a driver made the right split second decision.  The driver making the wrong decision has already cost themselves but then the Stipes double down and punish them again!  With no evidence of financial gain.

Well as it stands if a trainer intentional drugs a horse for gain, its a serious offence under the rules of racing leading to fines, disqualifications and forfeiture of stakes.
But you don't also get charged in a court of law.

That doesn't make the charge any less serious in my opinion, especially within the context of the racing industry and what kind of financial advantage can be gained from such things.
 

[Chief Stipe]

11 hours ago, Spatchcock said:

Well as it stands if a trainer intentional drugs a horse for gain, its a serious offence under the rules of racing leading to fines, disqualifications and forfeiture of stakes.
But you don't also get charged in a court of law.

That doesn't make the charge any less serious in my opinion, especially within the context of the racing industry and what kind of financial advantage can be gained from such things.
 

That's a different topic entirely.  However in your example the charges would be laid first by the Code and RIB and heard in the equivalent of a Racing Tribunal.  A defendant could have the option of going to a higher court if they felt the outcome was unjust.

The example I referred to was where a defendant was first charged and sentenced in a higher court and then the Code/RIB tries them again and gives a far harsher penalty on top.  That in my opinion is manifestly unjust.

In the INCA case there was insufficient quality evidence to secure a conviction for the majority of charges laid in a higher court.  What you are arguing is they should have been laid in the Racing jurisdiction which has a lower evidence threshold.  The defendants may have been found guilty and then likely lost their livelihood.  

INCA was driven by ego, a predetermined outcome of guilty and a double down attitude when it started to unravel for the prosecutors.  Aided of course in the first instance by information from some dubious embittered types.

I saw a picture of RIU office staff taken before the police raids commenced.  Individuals smiling and proud as they wore Police provided flak jackets, hi-viz and walkie talkies.  That picture confirmed all my assumptions.

[Gammalite]

18 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

INCA was driven by ego, a predetermined outcome of guilty and a double down attitude when it started to unravel for the prosecutors.  Aided of course in the first instance by information from some dubious embittered types.

I saw a picture of RIU office staff taken before the police raids commenced.  Individuals smiling and proud as they wore Police provided flak jackets, hi-viz and walkie talkies.  That picture confirmed all my assumptions.

a bit of a silly way to look at things Chief.  Assumptions from a photo ? really.

The RIU is doing a job that is VERY VERY hard. I didn't become a stipe because I hated the idea of stable raids. And people just Bull-Shit non-stop when it comes to crime and charges of anything at all. (example You're a stipe here in a way , and have to wade through quite a few pages of bull shit 🤣 and then cop flak about yourself for questioning some of it., almost daily? 😅)  BTW you do a great job and don't listen to those nay-sayer galloping blokes 😋

INCA's job was to Investigate. i.e ask the HARD questions . Involving peoples livlihood. Picking on their Staff because of their attitudes is Just Rubbish .  they have to be Hard. They are/ were doing a hard job . An impossible job at times with the LIES people tell to cover their areas in Each and Every situation.

Police response has to be Assume 'armed and dangerous ' when suiting up for any house domestic issue. Who cares if they are laughing , proud, wearing hi-viz , guns, or clown hats. they're trying to gather Evidence of Crime. 

[Chief Stipe]

12 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

a bit of a silly way to look at things Chief.  Assumptions from a photo ? really.

Seriously @Gammalite the RIU raid the stables of Dunn and Purdon wearing hi-viz flak jackets and walkie talkies with a full police contingent?  With office staff grinning from ear to ear with pre-raid photos being taken.  How can you take that seriously?

I heard one story from a raid later in the day where the trainers wife was the only one home.  She said he was down at the Golden Mile and good luck getting him out of there!

[Chief Stipe]

18 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

INCA's job was to Investigate. i.e ask the HARD questions . Involving peoples livlihood. Picking on their Staff because of their attitudes is Just Rubbish .  they have to be Hard.

It is more important that they are accurate and consistent than being "hard".  It is also .orw important that they have a high level of competency when it comes to charging people.  At the end of the day it is often innocent people's livelihoods and reputation at stake.

Standing around pretending to be policemen and joking about it isn't being "hard" or more importantly professional.

[Chief Stipe]

21 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Police response has to be Assume 'armed and dangerous ' when suiting up for any house domestic issue. Who cares if they are laughing , proud, wearing hi-viz , guns, or clown hats. they're trying to gather Evidence of Crime. 

Really?  Can you honestly imagine Natalie Rasmussen toting a gun or even a hay pitchfork?  In any case the RIU, as far as I know, doesn't have an automatic right to dress as Police.  

[Gammalite]

Just now, Chief Stipe said:

It is more important that they are accurate and consistent than being "hard".  It is also .orw important that they have a high level of competency when it comes to charging people.  At the end of the day it is often innocent people's livelihoods and reputation at stake.

Standing around pretending to be policemen and joking about it isn't being "hard" or more importantly professional.

well they're only human. Policing and Investigating are very tough vocations . I feel sorry for them and others don't . that's fine.

At least the negative INCA result is good for the Industry Participants. They can keep operating. (unlike Ben Yole lol  😁) 

I had a stable raid at the stable I was in , in NZ once, 4 stewards jumped out of a car and Immeadiately started asking questions. I Lied to them straight out . nothing honest about it. About something I said at the trials the previous day about a horses identity. You Lie when the going gets tough. to cover for yourself and your team.  they got in car and drove away . problem solved. 

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Really?  Can you honestly imagine Natalie Rasmussen toting a gun or even a hay pitchfork?  In any case the RIU, as far as I know, doesn't have an automatic right to dress as Police.  

Yeay , I wasn't meaning the Apparell. I was talking about the response of the People Under investigation. Can you imagine how TENSE some of those situations are ? (not meaning a pitchfork)  example D.Douglas hid in the dog kennel when the raid was on. (he was DQ at the time and not spose to be near horses)  Example when they were catching Emma Stewart stable doing the race day treatments (something they got McGrath for there I think) can only Imagine how Tense those situations were/are . 

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

well they're only human. Policing and Investigating are very tough vocations . I feel sorry for them and others don't . that's fine.

I don't feel sorry for them.  They signed up for the job.  However the saddest part of INCA was the way the whole thing was handled and the intransigence only served to severely weaken the relationship between the RIU and participants and the latter's respect for them.

[Gammalite]

5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I don't feel sorry for them.  They signed up for the job.  However the saddest part of INCA was the way the whole thing was handled and the intransigence only served to severely weaken the relationship between the RIU and participants and the latter's respect for them.

The whole thing was stupid as you say.  dragging it out like that.  

Better if the Stipes just watched the video over and over, decide if there was foul driving 'Immeadiately'. Get the betting sheets to cross check . (It's like flying a bloody airplane lol) and make an Immeadiate decision.)  Police can get access then to the phone records of the parties if charges are laid. (for evidence) Job done !! 

No one has respect for RIU in the shape of they are trying to catch you out while you push the VERY close boundaries that THE GALAH mentioned earlier (very accurately)  so you don't like them. The RUI that is . normal as normal can be  .

Like near 'everyone' picks on stewards, race starters, Investigators, (and even Referee's at the footy lol 😅) all the bloody time, BECAUSE they Make Decisions that effect Outcomes !   .  ya gotta have em'all though,  or it would be Chaos. Inca just a bit slow and were NOT up to the challenge 😉🍻

 

  

[Chief Stipe]

31 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Inca just a bit slow and were NOT up to the challenge 😉🍻

Or was INCA, the process it followed and the outcomes an indication of a RIU culture/competence that wasn't up to the task?  That is it was the RIU that drove INCA.

[Brodie]

I have it on good authority that the legal bill for one of the defendants was approx $300k!!

This is a massive expense for most people in the harness industry and when there was no case to answer, it is abhorrent.

In the meantime the incompetents continue to get paid?

[Chief Stipe]

18 minutes ago, Brodie said:

I have it on good authority that the legal bill for one of the defendants was approx $300k!!

Yeah and how many lawyers do you know that race a horse?  Other than Dame Sian Ellias?