Is ATC Solvent

[the galah]

5 hours ago, Withadream2 said:

It’s not a matter of showing them the door, it’s a matter of saving harness racing in the North, for those you mention and everyone else in the industry. The only viable way to do that now is to sell AP and use the proceeds to improve Cambridge & fund stakes.  If we persevere with trying to save AP there is a danger we will all go down with the sinking ship.  That won’t give anyone the outcome they want. 

Its not over complicated is it.

you have a business,the atc ,which can't survive on their own due to past poor financial decisions,now requiring being propped up with significant financial support from hrnz. Hrnz does that by redistrubuting money they have received from the entain deal ,cash reserves held,and from money from clubs whose meetings consistently generate profits.

the money from entain was a one off, so once spent,is gone,the cash resevrves which hrnz are currently merrily spending, will be placed under even greater demand and therefore the revenue generating meetings will be required more and more to carry the loss making parts of the industry.

so its inevitable there will come a time when the industry can no longer carry the ATC  and the ATC will be required to sell all their assets,including alexandra park and will have to make future plans based around a different venue.That seems to be a given. So everyone is asking why don't they do that now when it seems such a sensible thing to do?

Why would the  atc, hrnz and their supporters ,still insist the best strategy is to put money into a failing business model ,knowing by doing that,they will continue to eat into their asset and income base,meaning when the inevitable move has to take place,it will place them in a very weakened state to move forward.

the whole thing is bewildering.Hrnz,the atc and their supporters are in reality sabotaging the quality of their own northern particpants future,seemingly because they want to look after their own short term  self interests. and the short term self interests of some of the major players.

its all rather baffling really.

HRNz and mr steele seem to justify their decisions based on population,even though anyone with any thinking abilty can see the popualtion size hasn't helped auckland. 

Edited 22 hours ago by the galah

[the galah]

25 minutes ago, the galah said:

Its not over complicated is it.

you have a business,the atc ,which can't survive on their own due to past poor financial decisions,now requiring being propped up with significant financial support from hrnz. Hrnz does that by redistrubuting money they have received from the entain deal ,cash reserves held,and from money from clubs whose meetings consistently generate profits.

the money from entain was a one off, so once spent,is gone,the cash resevrves which hrnz are currently merrily spending, will be placed under even greater demand and therefore the revenue generating meetings will be required more and more to carry the loss making parts of the industry.

so its inevitable there will come a time when the industry can no longer carry the ATC  and the ATC will be required to sell all their assets,including alexandra park and will have to make future plans based around a different venue.That seems to be a given. So everyone is asking why don't they do that now when it seems such a sensible thing to do?

Why would the  atc, hrnz and their supporters ,still insist the best strategy is to put money into a failing business model ,knowing by doing that,they will continue to eat into their asset and income base,meaning when the inevitable move has to take place,it will place them in a very weakened state to move forward.

the whole thing is bewildering.Hrnz,the atc and their supporters are in reality sabotaging the quality of their own northern particpants future,seemingly because they want to look after their own short term  self interests. and the short term self interests of some of the major players.

its all rather baffling really.

HRNz and mr steele seem to justify their decisions based on population,even though anyone with any thinking abilty can see the popualtion size hasn't helped auckland. 

the other puzzling thing,is we  continue to hear the emotive claims from one side,that  people want northern harness racing to shut down.I suppose its not that puzzling given people who claim that are not going to base their argument on the financial realities. People need to take that emotive aspect out of their argument.

The argument is about what is the most prosperous path forward. It should not be interpreted as meaning closing northern harness racing.

 

Edited 22 hours ago by the galah

[Brodie]

4 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Yes it's a bitter pill to swallow but the sale looks the only way to clear the debt. and develop Franklin or something that they already own. Eventually the prizemoney will drop like it has all over Australia already. 

The Future of the Sport is dependent on Keen Participants  as much as the dreaded betting . Many Australian States are worse off than NZ harness racing, and are propped up by millionaire benefactors . Betting is very 'light' these days everywhere.  This is the best way forward. Seymour is currently 'Sponsoring' SA racing for millions annually just to keep it going. QLD trotting would of folded without him . am glad he got a amazing horse (LeapToFame)  as a reward for his lifetime of dedication to the sport. Dean Shannon raced many here in QLD and had a stud farm as well , but is choosing to buy and race them in NZ these days,  to help keep you guys afloat. What a legend !!! The late Chris Garrard from QLD did wonders helping harness racing too, in both countries. A friend of mine races in Meant To Be and about 3 others. A QLD mate owns a share in Magician (and one other)  at Dalgety's too. He's happy to race a horse or 2 all the way over there in NZ, to help keep NZ harness racing going. even though can't see it race. a good man. 

of course the ENTAIN deal , (as Ladbrokes in Aus do) are holding up the betting side of things to help out , and stop collapse. 

. HRNZ is full of employees doing a great job servicing BOTH Islands. they Cannot taking a biased stand like he or anyone else on forums wants. and subject the North Island to neglect because a field of 6 started in a race and not 10. At least all the connections racing in the North are likely to earn money , unlike a heap of South Island horses that earn nothing. 

HRNZ are there to LOOK after ALL your NZ participants in the Sport. the prizemoney and races are calculated by computer annually and run accordingly to Service Both Islands. Perhaps shutting some of the many South Island tracks is the answer to save a few bucks? they shut Hutt Park, New Plymouth , etc in the North. well  they have shut Forbury I guess , so that's a start. could save you a few bucks if that's what you're so worried about . 

Victoria runs at a huge loss. HRV still runs over 20 tracks as a lot of Keen participants still spread out over . they need to merge some , but how do you do it ?   it's hard.  people are making a living. Brodie talks like the North Island have got nothing worth racing,  when really it's the better competitors who are still making a quid from the sport. the better smaller fields allow this to happen. All the North Island stables would be winning currently, unlike a lot of South ones.   

Gamma, the North island racing is only just holding in there due to the Entain money!

Once that stops they will be racing for nothing like the heavily subsidised stakes currently!

Then the house of cards in the North will crumble and that is not that far off unfortunately!

Too many in the industry have their heads in the sand and when the time is up unfortunately racing is not going to be viable for most.

Anyway Kaikoura tomorrow so should be good days there! 

 

[Gammalite]

39 minutes ago, the galah said:

Its not over complicated is it.

you have a business,the atc ,which can't survive on their own due to past poor financial decisions,now requiring being propped up with significant financial support from hrnz. Hrnz does that by redistrubuting money they have received from the entain deal ,cash reserves held,and from money from clubs whose meetings consistently generate profits.

and What is wrong with HRNZ doing that ? of course they'll try and Help out the famous Club.

A lot of sporting clubs (and Construction and all sorts of businesses) run at a running loss , but can keep operating because of the assets.  ATC has more assets than the debt. They just need a way forward .

I thought for a moment that Slot races might be a help. The rich racing for Big stakes and funding themselves to run for the BIG BUCKS,  so the general non-group racing could have the usual funding (ALL Around NZ) . But I've lost that arguement, and after seeing what happened with the greed in the NSW Eureka this year, I'm not keen on Slots anymore at all lol. 🤣 that idea is canned lol. 

The new AFLW runs at a $50,000,000 Loss per year currently (now in it's 8th year ) women's AFL football. They're not packing up and going home because of a loss on the books . They'll take some action to cope and make adjustments. 

The Auckland Trotting Club has great assets and Great people. The debt was caused by issues during the apartment construction Phase. Yes . they shouldn't of done it . But they did (Hoggard arranged it but died at the wrong time alas and sadly ) so now a Recovery Plan is needed.

Not abandonment and neglect. These are your fellow kiwi Champion trotting folk you are talking about. Not lepers. 

[the galah]

4 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Not abandonment and neglect. These are your fellow kiwi Champion trotting folk you are talking about. Not lepers. 

lepers.Abandonment and neglect..

i think you may have exaggerated things just a tad .

The rest of your post made some good points.

 

[TAB For Ever]

23 hours ago, Brodie said:

TAB, you do write some fantasy stuff!

how many of these big owners?

The best stables?

Best horsemen/women?

You are in dreamland if you believe that!

Harness racing in the North is so weak and a total drain on the funds, and it is going to be telling!

There is very little interest nowadays, the only reason most go oncourse is for-the dining.

I would highly doubt that  many of their meetings get close to making money nowadays?

Do you seriously believe that they can get out if the situation they are in?

No dreamland from where I sit Brodie......you tend to go on and on and on and on ,along with your tag-mate Galah who doubles up with more on and on and on looking for flawed statements which will give you the urge to go on and on and on .

Harness racing in NZ had been in serious decline for a some time before the flawed and near fatal attempt by ATC to future proof the club and Industry in North.

It was  historically one of the standout clubs so was rewarded with Group racing ,good dates , Interdoms etc etc and lights for night racing .

Obviously things turned to custard with their 'development plans ' but that didn't and doesn't change the fact that it still has many of the best horses ,best breeders , best horse people and cos of its position in middle of city , with humid mild climate to operate all year ,it is still in good position to reap the benefits of any lift in Harness interest in NZ should that ever occur. Scrubb em cos of a few pennies expense and cut em loose and the ship could sink faster than it already is. 

Even you tag repeat-offending negaholics often turn to completely irrelevant and unproven 'facts' to put the boot in...comments like the racing is boring ,the odd learner driver made a bad move or the commentator calls too many nick-names. Now Brodie mentions people only go there for a feed. That funny !

Q...Have you guys even been to ATC ?  Seriously. Have you ? I suggest you do. You will find it easy to get to , free parking ,free book ,close to horses , great people and the best trainers , horses and horse people. The TAB is clearly the numero uno in NZ . Last night the place was buzzing , a trumpeter playing the best of Herb Albert and the females wanted to dance. Why would anyone want to close the busiest TAB in NZ along with a pokies room which nets $2 million a year .And when the Sunday grass meetings in south...now they really are boring as bat shit...have a betting boost musch of that booking comes from the Harness Northern region ,the one you want shut off !

All these profitable clubs in the South ,aren't really that profitable and as reminded last week many are only one sandhill away from the South Pole .Many cant race between May and september and most no good at night .

What Northern Harness needs is you two 'ideas' folk to at least visit the North and take over the Administration in north. Put your ideas to use !

HRNZ and the  Southern Clubs obviously want the North to be great again so the whole industry can survive. 
You two can do it !

I'll be driving past there tomorrow as a few thousand folk drive miles to swarm Kaikoura trots..I'll be among 10 x times the Kaikoura crowd at a Rugby league match [40,000 expected] , then on Tuesday its across road to NZ's wealthiest racecourse , which is #1 in NZ betting numbers on horses and overall attendance. And the city is growing !

 

[Brodie]

6 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

No dreamland from where I sit Brodie......you tend to go on and on and on and on ,along with your tag-mate Galah who doubles up with more on and on and on looking for flawed statements which will give you the urge to go on and on and on .

Harness racing in NZ had been in serious decline for a some time before the flawed and near fatal attempt by ATC to future proof the club and Industry in North.

It was  historically one of the standout clubs so was rewarded with Group racing ,good dates , Interdoms etc etc and lights for night racing .

Obviously things turned to custard with their 'development plans ' but that didn't and doesn't change the fact that it still has many of the best horses ,best breeders , best horse people and cos of its position in middle of city , with humid mild climate to operate all year ,it is still in good position to reap the benefits of any lift in Harness interest in NZ should that ever occur. Scrubb em cos of a few pennies expense and cut em loose and the ship could sink faster than it already is. 

Even you tag repeat-offending negaholics often turn to completely irrelevant and unproven 'facts' to put the boot in...comments like the racing is boring ,the odd learner driver made a bad move or the commentator calls too many nick-names. Now Brodie mentions people only go there for a feed. That funny !

Q...Have you guys even been to ATC ?  Seriously. Have you ? I suggest you do. You will find it easy to get to , free parking ,free book ,close to horses , great people and the best trainers , horses and horse people. The TAB is clearly the numero uno in NZ . Last night the place was buzzing , a trumpeter playing the best of Herb Albert and the females wanted to dance. Why would anyone want to close the busiest TAB in NZ along with a pokies room which nets $2 million a year .And when the Sunday grass meetings in south...now they really are boring as bat shit...have a betting boost musch of that booking comes from the Harness Northern region ,the one you want shut off !

All these profitable clubs in the South ,aren't really that profitable and as reminded last week many are only one sandhill away from the South Pole .Many cant race between May and september and most no good at night .

What Northern Harness needs is you two 'ideas' folk to at least visit the North and take over the Administration in north. Put your ideas to use !

HRNZ and the  Southern Clubs obviously want the North to be great again so the whole industry can survive. 
You two can do it !

I'll be driving past there tomorrow as a few thousand folk drive miles to swarm Kaikoura trots..I'll be among 10 x times the Kaikoura crowd at a Rugby league match [40,000 expected] , then on Tuesday its across road to NZ's wealthiest racecourse , which is #1 in NZ betting numbers on horses and overall attendance. And the city is growing !

 

TAB, certainly dont want Auckland to fold for the sake of harness racing in NZ and its people that are involved up there!

The reality is that it is only hanging in there due to the Entain money that it is receiving.

I am just trying to hammer home that this operation they are currently operating under will not be possible once Entain pulls the plug on their funding!

Personally believe that so much money has been squandered and not utilised the way it shouldve been to ensure that the industry could continue to for longer.

Many Clubs are clearly struggling, Addington I would say is able to operate ok due to i come from the rent etc. from the commercial investment out the back, which will enable them to continue into the future.

I think that too many have their heads in the sand and will realise soon enough that what Brodie and others have been stating has been correct all along unfortunately.

Still maintain that Auckland racing is not a great product currently to attract punting due to field numbers and the racing itself, when compared to South Island racing.

 

 

[the galah]

8 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

brodie.....you tend to go on and on and on and on ,along with your tag-mate Galah who doubles up with more on and on and on looking for flawed statements which will give you the urge to go on and on and on .

 

hey,thats what we all do. have you not noticed thats what everyone does on social media. So i'm not denying that. 

Tag team,i i don't mind tag teaming with brodie actually.

Being associated with someone who's "always on the money" and.... "just telling it as it is" sounds good to me.

i guess your either ernie leonard or steve rickard,giving your commentary of the action through your atc one eyed glasses. It used to be only canterbury people who had those,but now not so much.  Anyways,.Sunday afternoons ,On the mat,great tv in the 1970's when i was a kid. Well today is sunday.

9 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

 

Harness racing in NZ had been in serious decline for a some time before the flawed and near fatal attempt by ATC to future proof the club and Industry in North.

It was  historically one of the standout clubs so was rewarded with Group racing ,good dates , Interdoms etc etc and lights for night racing .

Obviously things turned to custard with their 'development plans ' but that didn't and doesn't change the fact that it still has many of the best horses ,best breeders , best horse people and cos of its position in middle of city , with humid mild climate to operate all year ,it is still in good position to reap the benefits of any lift in Harness interest in NZ should that ever occur. Scrubb em cos of a few pennies expense and cut em loose and the ship could sink faster than it already is. 

 

you seem conflicted . you state "harness racing in nz has been in serious decline for some time"...then explain part of your thought process is the ATC "is still in a good position to reap the benefits of any lift in harness interest in nz,should that ever occur".

did you type that last bit with a straight face.. the tag team knows you weren't serious with that last bit.

but hey,having said, that last bit is the line hrnz and mr steele are trying to sell. Have you ever thought you should tell him whether you believe thats a good or bad thing for his overall credibilty to be putting that out there.. Just saying.

And you've gone to the gammalite comment of  "scrub em and cut them loose and sink their ship faster"

 Come on tabman,you know that is just emotive language and has never been what the tagteam has said.. ....The tag team has always talked about the need to implement a viable,sustainable future for northern harness racing. polar opposites from what you say we say.

9 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

 

Even you tag repeat-offending negaholics often turn to completely irrelevant and unproven 'facts' to put the boot in...comments like the racing is boring ,the odd learner driver made a bad move or the commentator calls too many nick-names. Now Brodie mentions people only go there for a feed. That funny !

 

you got a bit side tracked in parts there tabman. Yes we have said the racing can be boring when you have very small fields,you know why we said that,...becuase we find some of the racing boring.

but much of the boring racing comments ,you should know also apply to cambridge,the learner driver comments defintely apply to cambridge and that relates to the lack of judicial oversight,and the nick name thing....tabman you've bumped the controls and switched the channel by mistake,this is the premier tv channel, not the other channel and we don't talk about the A white's favorite  nick names on  this channel.

oh,when you say you find it funny that brodie said people only go to auckland for a feed,i'm not sure where he said that,but funny thing is the last time i went to alexandra park,which was 20 years ago,i wandered the whole complex ,watching half the races from all the different stands   ....and do you know what,the 2 most significant conclusions i came to were.... by far the greatest % of people on course were their to eat a meal and showed no interest at all when the races were run.. and the other conclusion was just how smart the people were that had set up the ATC to be run in a way that generated so much income for themselves. ...but that was 5 years befiore the fatal apartments decision.

9 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

No dreamland from where I sit Brodie......you tend to go on and on and on and on ,along with your tag-mate Galah who doubles up with more on and on and on looking for flawed statements which will give you the urge to go on and on and on .

Harness racing in NZ had been in serious decline for a some time before the flawed and near fatal attempt by ATC to future proof the club and Industry in North.

It was  historically one of the standout clubs so was rewarded with Group racing ,good dates , Interdoms etc etc and lights for night racing .

Q...Have you guys even been to ATC ?  Seriously. Have you ? I suggest you do. You will find it easy to get to , free parking ,free book ,close to horses , great people and the best trainers , horses and horse people. The TAB is clearly the numero uno in NZ . Last night the place was buzzing , a trumpeter playing the best of Herb Albert and the females wanted to dance. Why would anyone want to close the busiest TAB in NZ along with a pokies room which nets $2 million a year .And when the Sunday grass meetings in south...now they really are boring as bat shit...have a betting boost musch of that booking comes from the Harness Northern region ,the one you want shut off !

 

 

the tag team has never said anything negative about the quality of the facilities and the overall quality of the horses and horse people. We agree with you there.Its really,really sad that the ATC has made past decisions that will eventually take away what you have just pointed out. really sad.

as to closing the tab,what are you on about there. Are you saying auckland can pick and choose which parts of their complex to sell ,e.g. the latest being the businesses under the apartments...but when it comes to the tab,that is excluded from their choices. .....i sense you may slipping into the, exaggerating a tad ,there tabman.

as to racing on south island grass tracks being boring as bat shit. Thats a bit sad if you think that tabman,to say that when you know it is the most heavily supported part of the sport in canterbury ,both from particpant numbers and punter participation numbers at normal meetings. I say,come on down tabman to methven,geraldine,oamakau,gore..get amongst the crowds,you may just change your mind.

9 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

All these profitable clubs in the South ,aren't really that profitable and as reminded last week many are only one sandhill away from the South Pole .Many cant race between May and september and most no good at night .

What Northern Harness needs is you two 'ideas' folk to at least visit the North and take over the Administration in north. Put your ideas to use !

HRNZ and the  Southern Clubs obviously want the North to be great again so the whole industry can survive. 
You two can do it !

I'll be driving past there tomorrow as a few thousand folk drive miles to swarm Kaikoura trots..I'll be among 10 x times the Kaikoura crowd at a Rugby league match [40,000 expected] , then on Tuesday its across road to NZ's wealthiest racecourse , which is #1 in NZ betting numbers on horses and overall attendance. And the city is growing !

 

Another thing i agree with you on tabman. The weather in the south is a major issue. i personally think they should close southern racing down for at least 10 weeks over winter as southland don't have the numbers or the climate to justify all year racing...

kaikoura and addington on nz cup day are so reliant on good weather. Not having indoor facilities to cater for the crowd size on a wet day is just playing russian roulette with profit margins ,but those clubs have no choice . but one day they will pay a big price if the weather does what it can do. Just a few days ago it was snowing where i live for over an hour.

thats why i advocate for a grass track in the northern region as part of any new auckland complex. Marketed properly over summer and it would be a real plus for northern harness racing. And i'm not talking using some galloping clubs grass track either.i've seen how dual purpose tracks work and a club is best to control its own destiny.

i like your idea about brodie and i taking over the ATc 2 top positions. I think it would have to be a co president,ceo thing. Auckland really would get back on track. Now your talking tabman. We would bring you into the fold as well. I can tell,you are realistic under all the pro auckland comments and we would need a man with local knowldege and contacts. Maybe we could take 4 month turns in the top job.... i'm sure you would like to be part of the "always on the money "team.it would grow on you. 

enjoy your league game and the ellerslie races. As to you saying overall attendance at ellerslie and the growing population,i hate to burst your bubble,but attendances have been in steady decline at ellerslie for years as well. you would know that, while the auckland population has grown.. Sure they still have their big days,but don't you remember the christmas ellerslie crowds or thwe northern jumps crowds.And you would know the strength of the sport in canterbury was once all the trainers that dotted the canterbury landscape,unlike the galloping trainers. So you would know the codes requirements are diffrent. And how about next time you fly over christchurch,get a window seat and look out the window and you will notice just how many of those training tracks have disappeared due to population growth.

Now,i will bounce back off the ropes and happily tag my team mate brodie for the next installment ,i'm sure he "will always be on the money" again.