Vision for thoroughbred racing

[Freda]

8 hours ago, Reefton said:

Well (1) you quoted statistics about North Island horse domination of those races numbers wise as if it is a recent phenomena.  Go back through the 45 years those races have been run at Riccarton and you will see it is no worse than it ever was (2) that carnival is one of the shining lights of NZ racing(God knows there aren't many) and 1000 Guineas day is one of if not the best attended galloping raceday in NZ (3) as I mentioned at that time of year you are liable to run into a bog track in the North(vastly less likely in the South) and (4) witness the number of North Island horses that turn up in the south as early as September each year to take advantage of the better weather (admittedly mainly Te Akau but in recent years Latta, Pike, Lowry Cullen et al)

If you want to race the guineas races at that time of year AND to make it look reasonably attractive the South is the only place for it(unless you want to take them to Ruakaka of course - it really looks good at that time of year)  

And to add to the above - the Cup meeting is only part of the Cup and Show week carnival, comprising not just gallops but the Trotting Cup and Christchurch Show, attracting horses from not just the N.I but Australia as well....and all the associated hospitality and fashion hype too.

Its the best Carnival of its type in the country, and the Guineas races are a perfect fit.

[Huey]

22 hours ago, Dazza not Bazza said:

Certainly it would be a difficult if not impossible task ,but most if not all club committees are composed of capable people with a vast knowledge of business inside and outside racing so if ANYONE could do it ,they could.

IMO what they should do is something like this....Timaru and ashburton ,maybe rangiora team up and request a block of consecutive wednesdays in sept oct leading up to nz cup week,they would program lead up / qualifying races for the cup and other stakes races AND they could create a stand alone series of their own with grand finals at one of those tracks OR riccarton (it could strengthen the middle day considerably)

I chose timaru because it fits perfectly but as we all know it is closing, but any club should be able to make a compelling case with a little help from other clubs.However some clubs must go !! and the ones that deserve to stay will have to fight to the bitter end but just moaning wont help,they need a plan and I think those business leaders who man the club committees can formulate one or two (or iron out the wrinkles in my idea)

 

Good on you for having some thoughts,  but do 12 months on a committee at a smaller club having discussed your views with the wonderful  folk at NZTR then come back and let us know what you think.  I'm sorry absolutely no hope of anything positive you have said that would benefit the smaller clubs and NZracing would have any hope of getting off the ground unless there was a massive change in regime. 

RITA isn't there to fix racing it's there to see if there is another way of shuffling the chairs around to keep it from sinking. 

Edited July 23, 2019 by Huey

[All The Aces]

11 hours ago, Reefton said:

Well (1) you quoted statistics about North Island horse domination of those races numbers wise as if it is a recent phenomena.  Go back through the 45 years those races have been run at Riccarton and you will see it is no worse than it ever was (2) that carnival is one of the shining lights of NZ racing(God knows there aren't many) and 1000 Guineas day is one of if not the best attended galloping raceday in NZ (3) as I mentioned at that time of year you are liable to run into a bog track in the North(vastly less likely in the South) and (4) witness the number of North Island horses that turn up in the south as early as September each year to take advantage of the better weather (admittedly mainly Te Akau but in recent years Latta, Pike, Lowry Cullen et al)

If you want to race the guineas races at that time of year AND to make it look reasonably attractive the South is the only place for it(unless you want to take them to Ruakaka of course - it really looks good at that time of year)  

Bog tracks in the North at this time of the year!!!

At least do some homework before making such statements. The following stats blow what you have stated out of the water. .

Ellerslie's meetings in early November for the last ten years have been.   Good 3 tracks for nine and a Dead 6 for the other.

Last years 2000 Guineas at Riccarton was run on a slow 9.  

 

 

Edited July 23, 2019 by All The Aces

[Freda]

 That old saying 'if it ain't broke don't  fix it'  applies here, surely.

This thread is about bouncing ideas around with the view to try and refloat the sinking ship.

The Cup carnival  in ChCh is one of the few things in NZ racing that works.

Leave it alone and try and be constructive..there have been some good points put forward, as well as the sobering reality of just how broke we are.

Your notion of moving the Guineas races is just more deckchair shuffling  for no obvious benefit, it wont increase turnover/ revenue and that is the bottom line in all this.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Freda

[Kihikihi Kid]

Reefton, just a thought.

A breakaway conglomerate , Tracks and Clubs in jeopardy from the report, banded together eg TNZ or Super Racing Inc and run own meetings with own turnover and jurisdiction, know it won't happen overnight but if it's the only option available , I'd be happy to see that in place.

It may been seen as the 2nd tier of Racing , but then again , they said the Pyjama Cricket wouldn't work .....

[All The Aces]

Freda, Reefton in making off the cuff statements that are clearly incorrect in defence of the status quo needed to be pointed out.

The South Island is clearly not supporting the 1000 & 2000 Guineas races with horses numbers.

The reason I brought it up is that there have been discussions over the last couple of years by trainers in the North is that these two races are clearly being filled by North Island horses and with the huge cost and logistics of getting to and back from Christchurch that these two races should be brought North. Those discussions became louder following the transport difficulties in getting horses down to Christchurch last November.

Capacity fields actually do increase turnover and those two Guineas races are in all likelihood able to create more turnover run up North.

It makes economic sense all round.   

 

           

[Freda]

I stand by what Reefton and I stated..however I take your point about costs.  That could/can be easily dealt with - if there's the will - logistics not a problem with appropriate planning.

However,  that is all pie-in-the-sky if the ship sinks.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Freda

[Bloke]

On 23/07/2019 at 6:46 PM, barryb said:

I think you need to re-read my post again Reefton, I suggested shutting Te Rapa, Trentham & Pukekohe all Metro tracks I would have thought.

& upgrading these ones below, which are hardly city tracks, Avondale is currently a dive, but has a great surface.

 " Upgrade Avondale, build a new track at Cambridge, Upgrade Wairoa & race more often, upgrade Tauherenikau & Waverley, modernise Otaki & Foxton, Modernise Timaru & Riverton". 

 

 

Barry you wil be pleased to know that Tauherenikau has been upgrading its buildings  in recent years as it has turned around financially from significant deficits to large surpluses.

Tauherenikau's New Year's meeting on 2 January attracted a crowd of 12k. In my biased opinion it is the most beautiful course in the country.

 

[Reefton]

On 24/07/2019 at 9:20 AM, All The Aces said:

Bog tracks in the North at this time of the year!!!

At least do some homework before making such statements. The following stats blow what you have stated out of the water. .

Ellerslie's meetings in early November for the last ten years have been.   Good 3 tracks for nine and a Dead 6 for the other.

Last years 2000 Guineas at Riccarton was run on a slow 9.  

 

 

Been off BOAY for a couple of days but coming back to this!

Firstly let me make an observation in regards your (quite correct) claim about how good the Ellerslie track is in November when the ARC seem to run one raceday being Melbourne Cup day(they have run the odd one later in the month over the years but generally one).  Shiite they must have a lot of confidence in the reliability of their weather and track to run one meeting in the month of November!  Clearly it is sheer coincidence that they have had a run of good tracks.  I might add I had a look at the times on at least one of those good 3 days and I think the whoppers might have been told about how good the track was(2.08 for a G3 2000m race on a good 3 track?) .  Riccarton aren't above a bit of that sort of trick themselves however so we will let that slide.

But lets imagine I am a trainer with a colt I think might just be good enough to make a stallion but I am not 100% sure of his liking for wet ground  (bearing in mind seven of the last ten 2000 Guineas winners have gone to stud versus two Derby winners so it is fair to say that the 2000 is a better 'Stallion' race than the Derby).  Debatable whether either race is a feather in a horse's cap stallion wise given the state of NZ racing but I guess not every promising young NZ horse is a Dundeel who can match it in Aussie.

Now am I going to risk buggering his reputation by running him in races like the Bonecrusher or the Sarten race where tracks could be bogs or would I be better to go south to the Coupland/John Grigg and/or Canterbury Stakes(where history suggests the surfaces - and therefore the Horse's winning chances - are more reliable)?  I will give you the Hawkes Bay Guineas but they seem to have given up on the Great Northern Guineas and Wellington Guineas at that time of year(wonder why?).  Jimmy Choux and Sacred Falls could clearly handle the mud so I guess it made b-all difference to them.

The formula Te Akau seems to have used successfully (I think they have won four of the last eleven)  is send them South early and you really have to say it seems to be a very wise idea(three of those four and all three of their winning colts turning into stallions(to date not setting the world alight but Embellish and Xtravagant have the test to come)

And then your claim about trainers being concerned about costs - having had(shares in)horses with prominent Trainers in the north it strikes me that a lot of them don't give an eff what the cost is(that is the owners issue) when it comes to travelling or anything else and as often as not tell the press that the trip will make the horse.  I reckon if the horse farted one of those trainers would send you a bill for smelling it!  From my understanding there is a horse flight south every Tuesday so what is the logistics issue(getting them home is another matter but the damage is done by that time)?

Then this continual bleating about the imbalance of South Island horses - well I think there have been about five South Island winners in 45 years so whats new?  Southern three year olds are not competitive at that time of year(nor are many of the older horses to be fair) and Southern trainers recognise that.  The way Pitty and others compete strongly at Wellington Cup time shows the delay in getting Southern horses up to a competitive level in the season(and Pitty gave a demo with Savvy Coup about not pushing a top liner that early in the year by picking up top dosh in lesser NZ Cup week races).   

AND as Pam said Cup Week is unquestionably the best Carnival in NZ racing(and probably the best attended on the two big days at least) so if it ain't broke why fix it? 

[Agent54]

8 hours ago, Reefton said:

 

The formula Te Akau seems to have used successfully (I think they have won four of the last eleven)  is send them South early and you really have to say it seems to be a very wise idea(three of those four and all three of their winning colts turning into stallions

None of the last 5 winners of the 2000 Guineas have raced in the SI prior to their Riccarton victory. That includes the stallions Embellish and Xtravagant. 

[Reefton]

1 hour ago, Agent54 said:

None of the last 5 winners of the 2000 Guineas have raced in the SI prior to their Riccarton victory. That includes the stallions Embellish and Xtravagant. 

Yeah well that proves the point.  Imagine what they would have won by if they had prepared on decent tracks instead of the North Island shit holes.

[Freda]

2 hours ago, Agent54 said:

None of the last 5 winners of the 2000 Guineas have raced in the SI prior to their Riccarton victory. That includes the stallions Embellish and Xtravagant. 

The Te Akau mob were down here for ages though - preparing  on good ground.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Freda

[Freda]

On 24/07/2019 at 11:14 AM, Kihikihi Kid said:

Reefton, just a thought.

A breakaway conglomerate , Tracks and Clubs in jeopardy from the report, banded together eg TNZ or Super Racing Inc and run own meetings with own turnover and jurisdiction, know it won't happen overnight but if it's the only option available , I'd be happy to see that in place.

It may been seen as the 2nd tier of Racing , but then again , they said the Pyjama Cricket wouldn't work .....

Nice idea....think there are two separate jurisdictions in Japan but no sure of the details.  And, of course, they have MONEY...

[Agent54]

1 hour ago, Reefton said:

Yeah well that proves the point.  Imagine what they would have won by if they had prepared on decent tracks instead of the North Island shit holes.

You are an idiot. Xtravagant won by 8.5 lengths as it was.

[All The Aces]

20 minutes ago, Freda said:

The Te Akau mob were down here for ages though - preparing  on good ground.

As Agent 54 pointed out Freda the Te Aukau winners Embellish and Xtravagant didn't prepare down there.

Embellish's preceding start was a win at Trentham in late October on a dead 4 track 2017 and  Xtravagant had followed the same path by winning at Trentham in October on a Dead 6 track 2015 . 

Last year's winner Madison County came in off the back of a win at Te Rapa in October on a Good 3 track. As did the year when Ugo Foscolo won off the back of a win at Te Rapa in October 2016 off the back of another Good 3 track.  And Turn Me Loose 2014 won off the back of a win at Te Rapa in October 2014 off a Good 3 track at Te Rapa.  2012 Sacred Falls off the back of a win in October at Te Rapa on a dead 6 track. 2010 Jimmy Choux wins the 2000 Guineas on a heavy track following a win at Hastings in October on a Good 3 track. 2009 Katie Lee won coming in off the back of a win at Te Rapa in October on a Good 2 track.

I trust that Reefton will note that by far the majority of them came off the back of racing......wait for it.....wait...wait...on GOOD tracks in the North island in OCTOBER!!!

 So those are the last ten winners of the 2000 Guineas. 8 coming off the back of their prior start on the North Island with the worst track being a Dead 6 in October.

The other two winners were Atlante who had one start prior in the SI and the only winner who campaigned in the South Island being Rock ' N' Pop.

 

   

 

[Agent54]

10 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

As Agent 54 pointed out Freda the Te Aukau winners Embellish and Xtravagant didn't prepare down there.

Embellish's preceding start was a win at Trentham in late October on a dead 4 track 2017 and  Xtravagant had followed the same path by winning at Trentham in October on a Dead 6 track 2015 . 

Last year's winner Madison County came in off the back of a win at Te Rapa in October on a Good 3 track. As did the year when Ugo Foscolo won off the back of a win at Te Rapa in October 2016 off the back of another Good 3 track.  And Turn Me Loose 2014 won off the back of a win at Te Rapa in October 2014 off a Good 3 track at Te Rapa.  2012 Sacred Falls off the back of a win in October at Te Rapa on a dead 6 track. 2010 Jimmy Choux wins the 2000 Guineas on a heavy track following a win at Hastings in October on a Good 3 track. 2009 Katie Lee won coming in off the back of a win at Te Rapa in October on a Good 2 track.

I trust that Reefton will note that by far the majority of them came off the back of racing......wait for it.....wait...wait...on GOOD tracks in the North island in OCTOBER!!!

 So those are the last ten winners of the 2000 Guineas. 8 coming off the back of their prior start on the North Island with the worst track being a Dead 6 in October.

The other two winners were Atlante who had one start prior in the SI and the only winner who campaigned in the South Island being Rock ' N' Pop.

 

   

 

ATA, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

[Freda]

I'm not getting into a slanging match about Nth vs Sth....you have your opinions backed up by facts, fair enough..my comment however was that Cup week works, and the Guineas races complement the whole week beautifully. 

All the discussion abt the Guineas is deflecting the context of the thread and does absolutely nothing for the overall turnaround required in NZ racing.

If things carry on as they currently are the 2000 and 1000 guineas may as well be run at Scone...or Launceston...

Edited July 25, 2019 by Freda

[Kopia]

11 minutes ago, Freda said:

I'm not getting into a slanging match about Nth vs Sth....you have your opinions backed up by facts, fair enough..my comment however was that Cup week works, and the Guineas races complement the whole week beautifully. 

All the discussion abt the Guineas is deflecting the context of the thread and does absolutely nothing for the overall turnaround required in NZ racing.

If things carry on as they currently are the 2000 and 1000 guineas may as well be run at Scone...or Launceston...

Freda, Scone and Launceston aint on the agenda.....try Ellerslie and or Te Rapa. Wish I wasn't serious.

[Reefton]

1 hour ago, Agent54 said:

You are an idiot. Xtravagant won by 8.5 lengths as it was.

Are you that thick that you can't tell when the piss is being taken?

Edited July 25, 2019 by Reefton

[Reefton]

30 minutes ago, Kopia said:

Freda, Scone and Launceston aint on the agenda.....try Ellerslie and or Te Rapa. Wish I wasn't serious.

Ellerslie or Te Rapa?  Bloody great - run them in front of 200 people and with a real risk of a bog track

[Bloke]

I agree, if it is not broken don't fix it, leave Cup Week alone. Look what happened to the Auckland Cup when that "Flash Harry", Weaver, managed to screw it up.

[barryb]

1 hour ago, Reefton said:

Ellerslie or Te Rapa?  Bloody great - run them in front of 200 people and with a real risk of a bog track

To be fair Reefton, no bog tracks at Te Rapa in the last 20yrs. Last Saturday it was a heavy 10 and they were winning from everywhere & the grass looked great, I heard no whinging of kickback etc either.

There is a programme to fix the sand issue or at least minimise it later this yr.

Edited July 26, 2019 by barryb

[Freda]

2 hours ago, Kopia said:

Freda, Scone and Launceston aint on the agenda.....try Ellerslie and or Te Rapa. Wish I wasn't serious.

2 hours ago, Kopia said:

Freda, Scone and Launceston aint on the agenda.....try Ellerslie and or Te Rapa. Wish I wasn't serious.

That was a piss take in itself....if racing implodes as it well could, there won't be any classics....or anything else for that matter.

Castlepoint indeed.

[All The Aces]

1 hour ago, Reefton said:

Ellerslie or Te Rapa?  Bloody great - run them in front of 200 people and with a real risk of a bog track

Despite the real factual evidence as shown above with them to be more likely run on good tracks. You seem to have a imagined ingrained mentality re all these bog tracks in the North at this time of the year.

FYI.  There were 20 North Island meetings run in November last year the worst track was a Slow 7 at Rotorua. The remaining 19 meetings were run on tracks from a Good 2 to a Dead 6.

In October there were also 20 North Island meetings, the worst track were two Slow 8 tracks at Waipa and Matamata. Again the remaining 18 meetings were run on tracks from Good 2s to a Dead 6.

Not one track in the North Island ran a meeting with a heavy bog track as you ASSUME is the case. Your argument based on your opinion on this issue just doesn't stand up.

Just to rub a little more salt into your wounds there were 7 meetings run in the South Island last November. Four were run on Slow 7 or worse. Wingatui Slow 7, Ascot Park Slow 9  Riccarton (2000 Guineas day)  Slow 9  & Gore  Heavy 11.  In October from 7 SI meetings Gore ran on a Heavy11 and Winton on a Slow 9.

So from 40 North Island meetings only three were run on tracks worse than dead. One Slow 7 and two Slow 8s.

Yet from fourteen South Islands meetings six were run on Slow 7 or worse.  One Slow 7, three slow 9s and two Heavy 11s.

Your North Island bog track spiel is nothing more than house of cards opinion. 

 

 

   

Edited July 26, 2019 by All The Aces

[Agent54]

2 hours ago, All The Aces said:

Despite the real factual evidence as shown above with them to be more likely run on good tracks. You seem to have a imagined ingrained mentality re all these bog tracks in the North at this time of the year.

FYI.  There were 20 North Island meetings run in November last year the worst track was a Slow 7 at Rotorua. The remaining 19 meetings were run on tracks from a Good 2 to a Dead 6.

In October there were also 20 North Island meetings, the worst track were two Slow 8 tracks at Waipa and Matamata. Again the remaining 18 meetings were run on tracks from Good 2s to a Dead 6.

Not one track in the North Island ran a meeting with a heavy bog track as you ASSUME is the case. Your argument based on your opinion on this issue just doesn't stand up.

Just to rub a little more salt into your wounds there were 7 meetings run in the South Island last November. Four were run on Slow 7 or worse. Wingatui Slow 7, Ascot Park Slow 9  Riccarton (2000 Guineas day)  Slow 9  & Gore  Heavy 11.  In October from 7 SI meetings Gore ran on a Heavy11 and Winton on a Slow 9.

So from 40 North Island meetings only three were run on tracks worse than dead. One Slow 7 and two Slow 8s.

Yet from fourteen South Islands meetings six were run on Slow 7 or worse.  One Slow 7, three slow 9s and two Heavy 11s.

Your North Island bog track spiel is nothing more than house of cards opinion. 

 

 

   

Ignore him like the rest of the industry does ATA.