Thomass Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 IM not going to read Freda's mind because she'd give me a clip... Suffice to say she's a very intelligent Woman who would obviously agree with moi The Kraka Million is a case in point...the quality produces a G1 type horse...but is only Listed due to the restricted sale She may want that for the Cup... ...but it'd be simply absurd to take up your 'thought' fart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) The purist in me thinks that handicaps should NOT have black type. There are other jurisdictions where I think some handicaps have black-type status, but I've never agreed with that....similarly, sales-series races, promotional races i.e. the original 'Bayer Classic" .....fine, put up the money, make a great race of it, but don't pretend that it has any relevance to the improvement of the breed when there is a restricted entry. Edited January 12, 2020 by Freda 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 The Karaka million shouldn't be Listed. Are you suggesting that the entries in the Karaka Million are there because it has Listed black type status? How comical. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Why are you programmed to ask stupid questions statsman? Of course they go for the Mill... History shows MANY good horses race for the Mill... ...to not grant BP would be ridiculous.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Exactly, they go for the money. I couldn't care how many good horses race in it. The Listed Status is worthless if they are any good. You are very wet behind the ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Wtf..."worthless if any good" You come up with simply outrageous claptrap... Good horses racing agin good horses...it's what Black Type is all about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Thomass said: Wtf..."worthless if any good" You come up with simply outrageous claptrap... Good horses racing agin good horses...it's what Black Type is all about Are you suggesting that these very good horses that run and win this race, are only going to achieve a Listed win as their best black type. Some do have trouble understanding simple things. If the horses are any good, they will achieve far beyond a Listed black type result. Making the Listed black type result largely superfluous. As it should be in a sales restricted race anyway - where it should have no status, just money. This is simple stuff. Back Type is not good horses against good horses. Otherwise handicap racing would fit being suitable for Black Type. It doesn't fit. It's like discussing something with a person that has no idea about what Black Type means. Go away and annoy someone else. You're even wetter behind the ears than I thought. Edited January 13, 2020 by mardigras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) Why don't they do the same as the US. Give it Listed status with a (Restricted) notation then if they must give it black type status? Though as a restricted entry even, I don't think it should have that personally. Edited January 13, 2020 by curious 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 4 hours ago, curious said: Why don't they do the same as the US. Give it Listed status with a (Restricted) notation then if they must give it black type status? Though as a restricted entry even, I don't think it should have that personally. keep black type very simple...reminds me of this saying...'the English have a bad habit of making anything,any good...far too common'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 minute ago, holy ravioli said: keep black type very simple...reminds me of this saying...'the English have a bad habit of making anything,any good...far too common'. Interesting given no handicap races in the UK earn black type (rightfully so) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 as far as colonials' go ,we have a far worse record...it would seem....! Look at knighthoods...Sir Isaac Newton,Sir William English,Sir Ernest Rutherford,Sir Graham Henry.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Beau Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 What about Sir John Key ? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 19 hours ago, mardigras said: Are you suggesting that these very good horses that run and win this race, are only going to achieve a Listed win as their best black type. Some do have trouble understanding simple things. If the horses are any good, they will achieve far beyond a Listed black type result. Making the Listed black type result largely superfluous. As it should be in a sales restricted race anyway - where it should have no status, just money. This is simple stuff. Of course it's entirely possible when dealing with fragile Thoroughbreds who're always likely to break down.. Melody Belle could've been injured while winning the Kraka Mill and remain without a Black Type win... Similarily ALIGATOR BLOOD is a neddy of the highest class..but you'd have him stripped of Black Type for this race... That'd be simply ridiculous....which you do so well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 19 minutes ago, Thomass said: Melody Belle could've been injured while winning the Kraka Mill and remain without a Black Type win... And should that have happened, then she shouldn't have had a black type win. That's racing. The same could apply to any horse prior to them winning a race that should be black type. A sales series race shouldn't be. The Melbourne Cup could be the first black type win for a horse. Doesn't have any relationship with whether it should be black type. Anyone that understands the grading/classification of black type and what it is for, would realise that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 26 minutes ago, Thomass said: Melody Belle could've been injured while winning the Kraka Mill and remain without a Black Type win... She could have been injured in her first jumpout......your point is? 27 minutes ago, Thomass said: Similarily ALIGATOR BLOOD is a neddy of the highest class..but you'd have him stripped of Black Type for this race... Winning the MM Guineas doesn't do anything for HIS value. He is a gelding - in case you didn't know you can't breed from them yet. Well not until cloning is allowed. Yes he is a class animal - has a galloping style like Winx - and any horse breaking 1:21 at the Gold Coast has some upside. Remember he already has Black Type on his page. You criticise the breeders for their influence on SW & P racing (presumably the 2kg female allowance as well - if you are consistent) however you ignore that influence when it comes to sweepstake races like the Karaka Million and the MM's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 I think you'll find that's in the STUPIDTY basket... Imagine that weak az shit G3 2yo race at New Plymouth recieving Group status and the Kraka race NOTHING... Move on son....Vini vidi vici I think it's called Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Give up Tommy...you're on a hiding to nothing on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 18 minutes ago, Thomass said: Imagine that weak az shit G3 2yo race at New Plymouth recieving Group status and the Kraka race NOTHING... You don't like getting "spanked" do you Thomaas? The difference is the "shit" Grp3 2yr old race at New Plymouth is open to anyone to enter. You don't need to buy an expensive lottery ticket at the sales to qualify. You could also argue that the "lottery ticket" driven Karaka Million (subsidised by the industry when it can't afford it) is weakening the Grp status of other races. However in saying that there are 2 or 3 very good 2yr old's running around that don't have entry to the Karaka Million. One in particular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 In the overall pattern, weight-for-age is given higher priority than set weights, which is given higher priority than set weights and penalties, which is, in turn, given higher priority than handicap conditions. All black type races for 2YOs and 3YOs are to be run at set weights or set weights and penalties. In line with international trends, it is unlikely that further handicap races will be elevated to G1status. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Races for which entry is restricted to horses sold at a particular sale or sales are not eligible for group status. Furthermore, to be granted (R) Listed status, such a race must achieve a standard of quality equivalent to a group race Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Freda said: Give up Tommy...you're on a hiding to nothing on this one. And here's me thinking you weren't easily influenced by dickheads Freda... Imagine, if you will, the G3 WFA Shit race at Ellerslie on Melbourne Cup day... ...recieving G3 Bold Type in a Catologue..and the Melbourne Cup.....wee wee wee type... YEA...its unimaginable eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: You don't like getting "spanked" do you Thomaas? The difference is the "shit" Grp3 2yr old race at New Plymouth is open to anyone to enter. You don't need to buy an expensive lottery ticket at the sales to qualify. You could also argue that the "lottery ticket" driven Karaka Million (subsidised by the industry when it can't afford it) is weakening the Grp status of other races. However in saying that there are 2 or 3 very good 2yr old's running around that don't have entry to the Karaka Million. One in particular. No kidding? In case you're too stupid to know... The Karaka Sale is a very strong one... The odd home bred such as a Lindsey horse... who isn't eligible...has VERY little bearing on the overall strength of a Million Dollar race... It certainly deserves at least Black Type...and as evidenced...is required to have the strength of Group Racing...under constant review then Dito Vini vidi vici...move on son Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 20 minutes ago, curious said: In the overall pattern, weight-for-age is given higher priority than set weights, which is given higher priority than set weights and penalties, which is, in turn, given higher priority than handicap conditions. All black type races for 2YOs and 3YOs are to be run at set weights or set weights and penalties. In line with international trends, it is unlikely that further handicap races will be elevated to G1status. The silly Pattern Committee are so far up themselves and beholden to NZ Breeders that's absolutely NO surprise they'd come to that conclusion... They should make submissions to Australia and ask them to toe the f in line then... And downgrade the Donny/Epsom/Melbourne Cup Yea Theyd laugh in their faces and tell them to get the carrot out of their ass's and to swallow the Plum in their gobs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 24 minutes ago, curious said: Races for which entry is restricted to horses sold at a particular sale or sales are not eligible for group status. Furthermore, to be granted (R) Listed status, such a race must achieve a standard of quality equivalent to a group race Oh so even though they only receive Listed.... The quality is Group Class?? Who would've thought Melody Belle and the ALIGATOR were up to Group Class?? Move on folks Youve all been spanked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 5 minutes ago, Thomass said: The silly Pattern Committee are so far up themselves and beholden to NZ Breeders that's absolutely NO surprise they'd come to that conclusion... They should make submissions to Australia and ask them to toe the f in line then... And downgrade the Donny/Epsom/Melbourne Cup Yea Theyd laugh in their faces and tell them to get the carrot out of their ass's and to swallow the Plum in their gobs... You might want to have a look around a bit closer to hand and double check who is so far up themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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