Bolted or over racing horse

[Katch22]

Hi, 

I am doing a bit of research on horses that have over raced, in other words bolted in a pacing or trotting race. And a bit of a yarn on what the driver could do to stop or pull it up. Can anyone give me 2 examples please with a video if possible.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Karrots]

Hi Katch22

Just saw this as heading out, asking in a nice way, what is this research for? And is it for a positive or negative angle? Objective or subjective?

Thanks

[Katch22]

Hi Karrots,

 

It is to compare it with a race run last week at Manawatu. I would like to see another example or 2 of a drive and how it panned out, if he/she could to hold the horse or at least keep it in check. As a rider I've experienced not being able  hold a bolting horse, but just hold on for dear life until he runs out of steam. I imagine it would be the same in a cart. I know there have been other incidentences in the passed  but do not know where to start looking. I am looking at it in a positive angel, and both objective and subjective. Thanks.

 

[Chief Stipe]

3 hours ago, Katch22 said:

I imagine it would be the same in a cart.

You have much more leverage in a sulky. So you can exert more pressure on the horses head.

[curious]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

You have much more leverage in a sulky. So you can exert more pressure on the horses head.

How can that be when half your bodweight is in the cart not providing leverage? Anyway, imo the solution is to teach them to work and race kindly, not wait till or expect the driver or jockey to win a physical battle at race time.

[Chief Stipe]

15 minutes ago, curious said:

How can that be when half your bodweight is in the cart not providing leverage? Anyway, imo the solution is to teach them to work and race kindly, not wait till or expect the driver or jockey to win a physical battle at race time.

Physics which Curious is not your core competency.

Think about it.  A Jockey has two leverage points his hands and his feet.  Both are moving.  A harness driver has two as well but also a fixed point that he leverages against his arse in a fixed structure - the sulky.

[Roman]

7 hours ago, Katch22 said:

Hi Karrots,

 

It is to compare it with a race run last week at Manawatu. I would like to see another example or 2 of a drive and how it panned out, if he/she could to hold the horse or at least keep it in check. As a rider I've experienced not being able  hold a bolting horse, but just hold on for dear life until he runs out of steam. I imagine it would be the same in a cart. I know there have been other incidentences in the passed  but do not know where to start looking. I am looking at it in a positive angel, and both objective and subjective. Thanks.

 

You must be referring to A Pyers drive at Manawatu. I think him catching the field after galloping and running up the passing lane, going inside the markers to sit inside the leaders (for 700m) then snag back clipping a tyre and almost causing his horse to fall, then still up the home straight give it a slap on its arse and use the whip is just purely incompetence, he was lucky to only get 5 months.

I cant see how a defence about a horse bolting and trying to pull up can be used. Unless there was more effort to show he was trying to pull it up

[Happy Sunrise]

I didn't watch any of the Manawatu trots so missed it but it looked like a real handful and was a bit dangerous too.

Other specific examples are hard to remember but in the back of my mind I can see horses pulling and the driver lying horizontal in the cart before the horse dropping out. Most drivers go wide on the track when the horse is bolting so to see a horse go into the field is unusual.

The most infamous case could be Alistair Lowe and Sandra Keith back in 2017 where he got stuck three wide and then the horse over raced. 

https://harness.hrnz.co.nz/gws/ws/r/infohorsews/wsd06x?Arg=hrnzg-Ptype&Arg=RaceVideo&Arg=hrnzg-RacehdrID&Arg=245607&Arg=hrnzg-rSite&Arg=TRUE

Lowe got a big holiday similar to what Allen Pyers received.

 

[Karrots]

8 hours ago, Katch22 said:

Hi Karrots,

 

It is to compare it with a race run last week at Manawatu.

 

This particular race and drive has come up on here already. If you take a look at the thread Central Districts / Manawatu topic, page 2, Galah brings it up as it was unusual and a standout. and I spoke of it also. This was what I wrote

"Yes I saw that and held my breath. Was a good job, everyone horses included ended up being safe".

Galah also brought up the same horse and driver on Day 1, as he felt that driver breached of a rule. As mentioned the driver got time out for Day 2s drive the 1 you refer to. What are you thoughts on the sentence he received? 

 

[Roman]

22 minutes ago, Karrots said:

This particular race and drive has come up on here already. If you take a look at the thread Central Districts / Manawatu topic, page 2, Galah brings it up as it was unusual and a standout. and I spoke of it also. This was what I wrote

"Yes I saw that and held my breath. Was a good job, everyone horses included ended up being safe".

Galah also brought up the same horse and driver on Day 1, as he felt that driver breached of a rule. As mentioned the driver got time out for Day 2s drive the 1 you refer to. What are you thoughts on the sentence he received? 

 

Light. 5 months is lucky. You could count on your fingers and toes how many drives a season he has. If they held it to the rules, he would have probably got 7 years

[the galah]

14 hours ago, Katch22 said:

Hi, 

I am doing a bit of research on horses that have over raced, in other words bolted in a pacing or trotting race. And a bit of a yarn on what the driver could do to stop or pull it up. Can anyone give me 2 examples please with a video if possible.

Thank you in advance.

 

For what its worth in my opinion the best thing to do is give them a bit of clear air and let them run. No point fighting them. Thats what most drivers do.  The ones that restrain them hard often choke and fall. Normally they are the ones in the field without an option to let them run.So many examples of that.(e.g.megarock last week)  Occasionally you will see a driver in the open do the same. I remember watching a horse MIss waikiwi restrained so hard one day at winton the woman driver actually was strong enough to get it to fall.(16/12/18).

So there are examples of horses that may want to bolt,you just don't see them intentionally put into positions in the field that could be dangerous. Horses that hit the sulky with their back legs develop a fear factor and that can effect them all their career. Its rare,but some horses stride is simply too big for the sulky length allowed. 

If thats what your saying happened to mr pyers, well i can believe that, as it looked like he really wasn't in control. I can't have been nice for him. I personally think when driving a horse like that you just have to be aware that you can't end up boxed in on the fence where you have no options.Of course thats not always easy.

[Freda]

16 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

You have much more leverage in a sulky. So you can exert more pressure on the horses head.

May seem that way - I assume you have not ridden trackwork?  or  not to any extent perhaps?

I have never driven a harness horse, but have ridden, both trackwork/trials/schooling - albeit a good while ago now.  Also, evented.  My then partner, jockey Ron McCann, had driven many harness horses in fast and slow work, and workouts as well, so a fairly balanced assessment I would think, when he was adamant that a harness horse is much, much harder to hold than a ridden horse.

We had quite a lengthy discussion about this, and he explained that, as the driver was so far away from the horse [ as Curious alluded] the only thing that could be done in an out-of-control situation is lean against the horse and do your best!

500 kgs against 80 odd, no brainer who wins.   Of course, a quality driver, with consummate skill and judgment, would not put himself in that situation, and good hands and calmness may alleviate the situation anyway.

A rider, on top of his animal, has far more opportunity to coax and cuddle his horse, and encourage it to soften and listen.

[Freda]

3 minutes ago, Freda said:

May seem that way - I assume you have not ridden trackwork?  or  not to any extent perhaps?

I have never driven a harness horse, but have ridden, both trackwork/trials/schooling - albeit a good while ago now.  Also, evented.  My then partner, jockey Ron McCann, had driven many harness horses in fast and slow work, and workouts as well, so a fairly balanced assessment I would think, when he was adamant that a harness horse is much, much harder to hold than a ridden horse.

We had quite a lengthy discussion about this, and he explained that, as the driver was so far away from the horse [ as Curious alluded] the only thing that could be done in an out-of-control situation is lean against the horse and do your best!

500 kgs against 80 odd, no brainer who wins.   Of course, a quality driver, with consummate skill and judgment, would not put himself in that situation, and good hands and calmness may alleviate the situation anyway.

A rider, on top of his animal, has far more opportunity to coax and cuddle his horse, and encourage it to soften and listen.

I will just add, that Ron [ Mouse ]  was never run-away with, on a galloper. Once, as an apprentice, up north with boss Ned Thistoll, he was given the job of working a notorious hard puller, a horse called Damar.

He was paid per round, his trainer I believe would often take him home unworked, as no one could or wanted to manage the ignorant old sod!

[Chief Stipe]

50 minutes ago, Freda said:

My then partner, jockey Ron McCann, had driven many harness horses in fast and slow work, and workouts as well, so a fairly balanced assessment I would think, when he was adamant that a harness horse is much, much harder to hold than a ridden horse.

We had quite a lengthy discussion about this, and he explained that, as the driver was so far away from the horse [ as Curious alluded] the only thing that could be done in an out-of-control situation is lean against the horse and do your best!

An ex-jockey would hardly be tall enough to reach the peddles!

When I did my amateur harness drivers course I was taught the correct posture and most importantly where to hold the reins.  This was after years of working in a harness stable.

The natural inclination is to not hold the reins far enough up and have bent arms.  Subsequently you have less leverage and control.

We were shown recordings of races as demonstration and it was interesting to see how many senior drivers weren't doing it.

Now I believe that if you train these young horses with poor driving technique you open yourself up for problems later when racing.

Watch Purdon and Rasmussen and compare to some lesser drivers.

1 hour ago, Freda said:

A rider, on top of his animal, has far more opportunity to coax and cuddle his horse, and encourage it to soften and listen.

I'm not sure a bolting horse is looking for a kiss and cuddle!  If it is easier why does it seem jockey's are trained to abandon ship as quickly as possible?

[curious]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Now I believe that if you train these young horses with poor driving technique you open yourself up for problems later when racing.

Watch Purdon and Rasmussen and compare to some lesser drivers.

I'm not sure a bolting horse is looking for a kiss and cuddle! 

Doesn't make much sense to me. Taking a short hold just seems likely to tense them up, set up for a scrap and give them something to pull against.

Maybe not a kiss and a cuddle but probably some pain relief, not the application of more.

[Freda]

Pardon, Rasmussen exactly my point.

Class drivers with well bred and well trained horses.

Can't compare to a little-used driver who hasn't the skills or experience to manage what appeared to be a handful.

[Freda]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

An ex-jockey would hardly be tall enough to reach the peddles!

When I did my amateur harness drivers course I was taught the correct posture and most importantly where to hold the reins.  This was after years of working in a harness stable.

The natural inclination is to not hold the reins far enough up and have bent arms.  Subsequently you have less leverage and control.

We were shown recordings of races as demonstration and it was interesting to see how many senior drivers weren't doing it.

Now I believe that if you train these young horses with poor driving technique you open yourself up for problems later when racing.

Watch Purdon and Rasmussen and compare to some lesser drivers.

I'm not sure a bolting horse is looking for a kiss and cuddle!  If it is easier why does it seem jockey's are trained to abandon ship as quickly as possible?

I've never heard that one.!  We were always told that you were more likely to be hurt if you baled....I know I would have been, I have the gymnastic skills of a lump of wood. 

[Chief Stipe]

49 minutes ago, curious said:

Doesn't make much sense to me. Taking a short hold just seems likely to tense them up, set up for a scrap and give them something to pull against.

Have you driven a pacer in fast work?  They generally get on the bit - well the good ones do!

What I was describing is not "taking a short hold" it is taking a firm hold and holding the reins in a way that gives you the most control and connection to the horse.  This actually sends a good message to the horse and I believe improves its confidence.  You can still have soft hands but you need stronger arms because you are holding them up rather than getting the horse to do it for you.

It is pure and simple physics.  If you are holding the reins close to your body and have bent elbows then you have stuff all control.  If a horse decides to bolt the only leverage is to lean out the back of the cart and you have no control.  You can't even see where you are going!

Do a simple exercise at home - tie two pieces of string/rope to a dining chair and sit in another.  Try moving the chair with your elbows bent and your hands in your lap versus your arms nearly straight and your hands either over your knees or just beyond them.

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, Freda said:

Class drivers with well bred and well trained horses.

 

Well trained is the key.  Most of these problems start early on at breaking in and the first preparation.  I'm a firm believer that it is a poorly broken in or educated horse that needs all the head gear that seems to be the fashion.  

[Chief Stipe]

5 minutes ago, Freda said:

I've never heard that one.!  We were always told that you were more likely to be hurt if you baled....I know I would have been, I have the gymnastic skills of a lump of wood. 

You watch - I don't really know if it is what they are taught or it is their inexperience but the number of times I've seen Jockey's bale when a horse starts acting up seems to be increasing.  In the "olden days" it seemed to me that Jockey's seemed to be better horsemen and would hang in there until they got on top of the horse's behaviour.

[curious]

54 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Have you driven a pacer in fast work?  They generally get on the bit - well the good ones do!

What I was describing is not "taking a short hold" it is taking a firm hold and holding the reins in a way that gives you the most control and connection to the horse.  This actually sends a good message to the horse and I believe improves its confidence.  You can still have soft hands but you need stronger arms because you are holding them up rather than getting the horse to do it for you.

It is pure and simple physics.  If you are holding the reins close to your body and have bent elbows then you have stuff all control.  If a horse decides to bolt the only leverage is to lean out the back of the cart and you have no control.  You can't even see where you are going!

Do a simple exercise at home - tie two pieces of string/rope to a dining chair and sit in another.  Try moving the chair with your elbows bent and your hands in your lap versus your arms nearly straight and your hands either over your knees or just beyond them.

I think we just have very different ideas about this. A horse being "on the bit" to me  means it is travelling on a light rein and responding to light pressure with barely any contact, not that I need "leverage" to control it. The dining  chair execrcise is about demonstrating how you can increase the leverage which is not what I want to do.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, curious said:

The dining  chair execrcise is about demonstrating how you can increase the leverage which is not what I want to do.

No it is about having more control.  You can still have "light hands" it's about where you place them.  

Take the video link of Alistair Lowe.  He is trying to restrain the horse to get back and trail - the horse wasn't going good enough to get to the lead.

You'll see he is leaning out of the back of the cart trying to pull the horse back.  That is only making the situation worse because he has effectively lost control.

With your hands in a better position you are able to respond quicker to anything untoward and send that message to the horse.  If your elbows are already bent and damn near in your lap and you need to grab more rein quickly then you are in the shit and things escalate.

You can still drive them as if on pieces of string but you have more options.  Horses generally bolt for a reason unless they are absolute shitheads or badly trained.  A good driver will feel it and react - placing your hands where the professionals trained me to put them helps heaps.

I actually experienced the difference during the course when we had a couple of mock races with mobile starts.

Try it sometimes.  Bit hard if you are doing a 40 minute jogging session as your arms get tired.  But when doing pacework go one hand loop forward than where you think you should and then try doing one more.

[Karrots]

On 12/3/2020 at 8:50 AM, Katch22 said:

Hi, 

I am doing a bit of research on horses that have over raced, in other words bolted in a pacing or trotting race. And a bit of a yarn on what the driver could do to stop or pull it up. Can anyone give me 2 examples please with a video if possible.

Thank you in advance.

 

Was this the info you desired/required? What are you thoughts on the Mana driver being stood down and the term set out? A specific example that come to my mind, is the same horse but different drivers. The horse is currently 1 of the best in NZ. Here is an example of the driver pulling him out of the race. Earlier on in his career he took off in a race, was the tear away leader, the driver allowed him to just run. No harm come to this horse in either incidents, with both drivers opting to handle differently. 

https://harness.hrnz.co.nz/gws/ws/r/infohorsews/wsd06x?Arg=hrnzg-Ptype&Arg=RaceVideo&Arg=hrnzg-RacehdrID&Arg=276999&Arg=hrnzg-rSite&Arg=TRUE

[the galah]

Bolting horses is an interesting topic,as i think one of the first things any trainer should tell a new,inexperienced employee is how to deal with such a horse.Its very important if you are to avoid future injury to person and horse.

In my view,their are several causes,but i agree with the chief that the breaking in process is very important for future manners. I have found that the trainers who take their time,and have a good reputation, are the best ones to use.Same if doing it yourself,its surprising how good they turn out if you take your time..

I also found that those who do it cheaper always seemed to get it done quicker,and always the horse had poorer future manners.

So that is a factor,but obviously the horses nature/breeding itself is important as some obviously are more highly strung. 

Then the gear issue i referred to earlier. Just as pinching gear can cause a horse to buck,horses that are geared up incorrectly or are simply too big,can hit the sulky with their back feet,which of course leads them to panic and their natural inclination is to try and get away which means they can bolt. Thats why in years gone past drivers used to drop a leg turning for home when in the sulky and make contact with the back feet to make the horses run faster. Something no longer allowed.

Everyone will come across horses that bolt if you work in a stable.

I have had a couple i trained. The first one i had i worked out early if i just let him go and he would bolt half a round, then i just took hold of him and he became as relaxed as.  I used to have to get him lead on to the track for a start,but he soon got out of the bolting habit. Although one day i had him driven by another good driver in training,who i told to let him just go if he wanted to bolt for 400m,but that driver,even though he was very experienced tryed to restrain him and ended up bolting 5 rounds.

The other horse i had that used to bolt simply was too big,and would hit the footrests at high speed which used to cause him to panic and either bolt or gallop. In the end he just wouldn't run at top speed as i'm sure he was worried about hitting the cart.He was as big and powerful a standardbed as i have ever seen,and i thought as fast as anything i had ever had,but he never raced.

[Chief Stipe]

22 minutes ago, Karrots said:

No harm come to this horse in either incidents, with both drivers opting to handle differently.

COPY THAT - made a clean beginning at its 45 metre handicap mark. Improved forward from inside the 2300 metres and proceeded to over-race near the 2000 metre mark, pulling fiercely outside the leader approaching the 1200 metres with driver M McKendry taking the colt wider on the track after it appeared to choke down and was then pulled up. Driver M McKendry advised that when restraining the colt, it contacted the sulky wheels with its hind legs which compounded the problem and as a result he had to pull up. A post race Veterinary examination revealed no obvious abnormalities.