Transparency?

[Joe Bloggs]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

BULLSHIT Joe!  Absolute BULLSHIT!  

Tell me how this report from Flemington yesterday is ANY different from what we saw from Te Rapa?

https://www.racing.com/form/2021-02-13/flemington#/stewards-report

Wasn't Bivouac the favourite in the Lightning?

Bivouac Rider Glen Boss reported the horse would derive benefit from today's race. Rider Glen Boss was notified to ensure he rides all his mounts out hands and heels to the end of the race. Stewards were satisfied that Glen Boss's actions did not affect the result of this race. A post‑race veterinary examination failed to reveal any abnormalities.

Ok, let me answer that from the Bloggs Angle...the state of the Flemington straight, most horses head to the middle of the track, joke...it's getting like Riccarton, second, he's not a 1000m horse, and he was first up, against a very strong field of proven 1000m horses...

[Joe Bloggs]

Just now, Joe Bloggs said:

Ok, let me answer that from the Bloggs Angle.the state of the Flemington straight, most horses head to the middle of the track, joke.it's getting like Riccarton, second, he's not a 1000m horse, and he was first up, against a very strong field of proven 1000m horses.

He also didn't get beaten 8 lengths, like MB dd, his margin 2.6lgh

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Hang on, what am I watching? Bosson having had the run of the race lets Camino Rocoso go around him and whoa he's snookered, his momentum is not stopped but slowed, then he has to come around that horse heels, meanwhile Vinne Colgan see's what's happening and being the good rider he is puts his horses shoulder into MB when OP tries to push out..she wasn't going well enough to shoulder her way out, then Bosson overdoes it to make it look like he's been hard done by...academy award job that...

So are you bagging the horse or the rider or BOTH Joe?

FFS you make yourself out to be the expert of all things racing from riding to ownership to training.  Go back and look at her previous races.  Yes you could argue that Opie got caught napping on a slow pace when they started sprinting at the 600m but hell the knocks she got on the corner and then no room after what do you expect?  I'm surprised Colgan didn't get pinged for that - Geez watch his elbows!

As for "being the good rider that he is" I'm sure the Trainer and Owners of Tiptronic are really happy with Colgan today!

TIPTRONIC (V Colgan) – Shifted outwards to avoid the heels of MELODY BELLE near the 1600 metres when over racing. When being steadied, TIPTRONIC went back onto THE CHOSEN ONE and SINARAHMA which were both hampered. Required veterinary treatment post-race after being gallop on during the running.

[Joe Bloggs]

3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Just to put some perspective on this.  Joe you bag NZ racing all the time.  But I think there were more horses "Pre-race Tested" at Te Rapa than at Flemington yesterday.

Pre-race blood for post-race analysis:

Race 1 Selica (NZ), Brazen Song

Race 2 Ingratiating, Birdsville, Mt Buller, Gimmie Par

Race 3 Buffalo River (USA), Irish Flame (USA), Regardsmaree

Race 4 Good Idea, Sikorsky, Coolth

Race 5 Zou Dancer, Starelle, A Pinch Of Luck

Race 6 Dadoozdart (GB), Holbien, Polanco, Skyman (GB)

Race 7 Cherry Tortini, Brando (NZ), Aysar, Zac De Boss (NZ)

Race 8 Bivouac, Halvorsen

Race 9 Rich Itch, Ruban Bleu, Zakat, I'm Telling Ya

 

Pre-race urine for post‑race analysis:

Race 1 Silent Sovereign

Race 2 Treporti, Frost Flowers

Race 3 Widgee Turf, Takumi (IRE)

Race 4 War Critic (NZ)

Race 5 Personal

Race 7 Tagaloa

 

Post‑race samples from following horses:

All Winners

Race 5 Personal (2nd placegetter)

Race 7 Aysar (2nd placegetter)

Race 8 September Run (2nd placegetter), Swats That (3rd placegetter)

I bag NZ racing because it deserves it, it was once fabulous, wonderful, up there with anywhere, now run by fools, and if you are now defending it, I'm wasting my time..the grass roots buggers will always be great, it's not their fault, it's disgusting that NZ racing was allowed to get to where it is, the CD is woeful and SI not far behind, but the Cartel are loving it up north, FFS that why I'm pissed off, I've been in this game as a jockey, owner, breeder, trainer, tipped in more than 600k over the past 8 years, and I reckon [FWIW] I'm allowed to be a little more angry, audible than most...all I want Chief is accountability, transparency, and good governance, but I'm wasting my fucking time, aren't I?...just tell me.

[Chief Stipe]

7 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

He also didn't get beaten 8 lengths, like MB dd, his margin 2.6lgh

Geezus Joe - have you got a hangover today?  One was 2000m race the other was 1000m!  Plus what was the point of riding Melody Belle out when she had no room!  

[Joe Bloggs]

Just now, Chief Stipe said:

So are you bagging the horse or the rider or BOTH Joe?

FFS you make yourself out to be the expert of all things racing from riding to ownership to training.  Go back and look at her previous races.  Yes you could argue that Opie got caught napping on a slow pace when they started sprinting at the 600m but hell the knocks she got on the corner and then no room after what do you expect?  I'm surprised Colgan didn't get pinged for that - Geez watch his elbows!

As for "being the good rider that he is" I'm sure the Trainer and Owners of Tiptronic are really happy with Colgan today!

TIPTRONIC (V Colgan) – Shifted outwards to avoid the heels of MELODY BELLE near the 1600 metres when over racing. When being steadied, TIPTRONIC went back onto THE CHOSEN ONE and SINARAHMA which were both hampered. Required veterinary treatment post-race after being gallop on during the running.

Wow, Im making myself out to be an expert? No, I'm trying to voice my opinion that is different to yours, I try and substantiate my opines, I use past experiences and events, thats hopefully a transparent action..should I stop, desist? It's your game Chief and your rules...I can't assist or amend with my views, I should just stop I think, go for a surf, walk the dog along the Broadwater, hit the white pill around a few holes...what's finished me is the point you are trying to make, you can't see the value in pre-race testing, with that view racing in NZ is clean as snow [sorry about the pun] and admin is AOK....I'm off, no more, good luck to you all, no hard feelings, it's my fault Chief...I should have known.

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

I bag NZ racing because it deserves it, it was once fabulous, wonderful, up there with anywhere, now run by fools, and if you are now defending it, I'm wasting my time..the grass roots buggers will always be great, it's not their fault, it's disgusting that NZ racing was allowed to get to where it is, the CD is woeful and SI not far behind, but the Cartel are loving it up north, FFS that why I'm pissed off, I've been in this game as a jockey, owner, breeder, trainer, tipped in more than 600k over the past 8 years, and I reckon [FWIW] I'm allowed to be a little more angry, audible than most...all I want Chief is accountability, transparency, and good governance, but I'm wasting my fucking time, aren't I?...just tell me.

Your angst is justified but your reasoning for it and your targets are not.  Why bag selected Jockey's and Trainer's? They're not "running it" - they're trying damn hard to survive! 

The problems you describe all go back to one root cause of which they are but symptoms.  Wasted money!  The NZRB/RITA/TABNZ/Whatever it will be named next year and their decades, yes decades of largesse, focussing on dumb projects and paying over the top fees for them.  The AWT's being the latest folly.

 

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

what's finished me is the point you are trying to make, you can't see the value in pre-race testing, with that view racing in NZ is clean as snow [sorry about the pun] and admin is AOK....I'm off, no more, good luck to you all, no hard feelings, it's my fault Chief...I should have known.

You MISS the point Joe.  Pre-race testing may have value but where is the proof that it does?  Does the added cost to the industry achieve what it sets out to achieve?

I've never said that NZ "racing is as clean as snow" but is pre-race testing going to clean the snow?  Not when the basic fundamental problem is the economics of racing in NZ.  What do we see happening at the moment?

The investment of $48m into 3 AWT's that will transform the industry from a low cost model at the coal face to a high cost one without any significant gain in revenue or return to stakeholders.  Just at a time when maybe, just maybe, TAB NZ was heading in the right direction in terms of their cost structure.  Although in that regard their two biggest costs are locked in from quite some time to come.

[Horace]

36 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Just to put some perspective on this.  Joe you bag NZ racing all the time.  But I think there were more horses "Pre-race Tested" at Te Rapa than at Flemington yesterday.

Pre-race blood for post-race analysis:

Race 1 Selica (NZ), Brazen Song

Race 2 Ingratiating, Birdsville, Mt Buller, Gimmie Par

Race 3 Buffalo River (USA), Irish Flame (USA), Regardsmaree

Race 4 Good Idea, Sikorsky, Coolth

Race 5 Zou Dancer, Starelle, A Pinch Of Luck

Race 6 Dadoozdart (GB), Holbien, Polanco, Skyman (GB)

Race 7 Cherry Tortini, Brando (NZ), Aysar, Zac De Boss (NZ)

Race 8 Bivouac, Halvorsen

Race 9 Rich Itch, Ruban Bleu, Zakat, I'm Telling Ya

 

Pre-race urine for post‑race analysis:

Race 1 Silent Sovereign

Race 2 Treporti, Frost Flowers

Race 3 Widgee Turf, Takumi (IRE)

Race 4 War Critic (NZ)

Race 5 Personal

Race 7 Tagaloa

 

Post‑race samples from following horses:

All Winners

Race 5 Personal (2nd placegetter)

Race 7 Aysar (2nd placegetter)

Race 8 September Run (2nd placegetter), Swats That (3rd placegetter)

Maybe some of ' us ' need to take off our rose ( tangerine ) coloured glasses and be objective?

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, Horace said:

Maybe some of ' us ' need to take off our rose ( tangerine ) coloured glasses and be objective?

How am I not "being objective"?  I didn't single out Melody Belle for analysis.  Were there no other examples yesterday?  Any thoughts on Levante?

I actually watched the race live and my thoughts on it haven't changed after watching the race again a number of times and reading the Stipes report.

 

[Freda]

FWIW..it may be that MB has had enough - either for now, or for good.  Time will tell, and being the good operation that the Te Akau team are, there will be no stone left unturned to make sure the mare is OK.

But in a general sense, horses that are travelling well will cop interference far  better than those that are flat.

My take was that she was flat before she was ever tightened up.  

As for the slow early pace..isn't judgement of pace supposed to be what jockeys do?

It's a bloody long time since I have seen a rider's judgement questioned wrt the pace.

In fact, I must hark back to a stipe questioning one of our very best on just that matter.  The pace of the race is irrelevant, said the stipe.  FFS.

[Freda]

30 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

The problems you describe all go back to one root cause of which they are but symptoms.  Wasted money!  The NZRB/RITA/TABNZ/Whatever it will be named next year and their decades, yes decades of largesse, focussing on dumb projects and paying over the top fees for them.  The AWT's being the latest folly.

 

I think, another angle is worth considering.for years, although not in as parlous a situation as now, NZ racing has  been considered a poor relation to Aus.   The overall lack of real money inherent meant that our industry had little interest for organised crime.

So, testing, pre race, and strict scrutiny of race tactics and patterns, have been far less practised here.   Sloppy, but there it is.

[Chief Stipe]

8 minutes ago, Freda said:

FWIW..it may be that MB has had enough - either for now, or for good.  Time will tell, and being the good operation that the Te Akau team are, there will be no stone left unturned to make sure the mare is OK.

Yep mares (equine and other species) can do that - just switch off.  I don't think that is the case here though.

9 minutes ago, Freda said:

But in a general sense, horses that are travelling well will cop interference far  better than those that are flat.

My take was that she was flat before she was ever tightened up.  

She was caught flat footed when the pace suddenly went on.  She was knocked at the corner and lost momentum.  Then had no room.  She has always liked being in the clear - maybe that is why she wears blinkers.  The other thing with these types of mares they learn their craft so well that they protect themselves and also know when the race is lost.

14 minutes ago, Freda said:

As for the slow early pace..isn't judgement of pace supposed to be what jockeys do?

 

Yep if you are in a good position and don't want to lead what do you do about it?  A slower pace in my opinion often results in more bad luck stories than a race where the pace is solid and even.  If you mistime your move by a few split seconds you often get into traffic issues or having to run an impossible sectional at the finish.

 

[Chief Stipe]

7 minutes ago, Freda said:

So, testing, pre race, and strict scrutiny of race tactics and patterns, have been far less practised here.   Sloppy, but there it is.

Add to that declining quality and numbers in fields and Jockey's and well......

[Tesio]

All this talk of Drug testing makes me wonder what has happened to the B sample of the positive test from Vamos Bebe?

[Horace]

22 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

How am I not "being objective"?  I didn't single out Melody Belle for analysis.  Were there no other examples yesterday?  Any thoughts on Levante?

I actually watched the race live and my thoughts on it haven't changed after watching the race again a number of times and reading the Stipes report.

 

Melody Belle carried 2kg less than the first 4 home, was beaten 8.1 lengths, and looked like a horse who has had enough.She's certainly been a champ..in NZ..but doesn't come close to Sunline who was a real champion, and won 2 Cox Plates. Jamie Richards said something before the race yesterday, about having a crack at a Group 1 in australia? On that run, forget it.

[nomates]

For what it's worth , and i talk thru my pocket this time , i was up for a couple of decent multi's finishing on MB . I personally gave my money away before the 600 , never looked to be travelling for mine , i don't think she was caught flat footed i just think she was a bit dour , got my hopes up slightly turning in when she got going a bit but they were soon dashed when it was apparent there was no sprint coming .

Prior to the race my only concern was a niggle i had about her win at Trentham , that was hard work for her that day , i know she was first up and all but she didn't so much sprint as grind that day . So i just wonder if that run had taken the edge of her a bit , certainly looked as dour as i have ever seen her yesterday .

She also could have finished closer i think if not for Tiptronic leaning all over her most of the way up the straight , no way she would have won but that didn't help , and certainly older horses and mares in particular can look after themselves more as they get older .

I'm sure the TA team will check everything they can , and hopefully we see her again . 

Then again maybe she has clocked out and said it's time for a boyfriend , happens all the time .

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, Horace said:

Melody Belle carried 2kg less than the first 4 home, was beaten 8.1 lengths, and looked like a horse who has had enough.She's certainly been a champ..in NZ..but doesn't come close to Sunline who was a real champion, and won 2 Cox Plates. Jamie Richards said something before the race yesterday, about having a crack at a Group 1 in australia? On that run, forget it.

Remind me not to subscribe to your tipping service.  Seems to be as good as Thomarse's.  Actually I'd be willing to take a wager that she bounces back.  

She's going to Australia there is no doubt.  As was discussed yesterday she is heading to the Magic Millions Broodmare sale regardless of how many more runs she has.  No harm in trying your hand in some of those Brisbane races at the winter carnival.  She won the Sire's Produce beating Pierata.

In her last hit and run to Australia she did run 3rd in the MacKinnon Stakes to a useful horse in Arcadia Queen.  She is a previous Grp 1 winner in Australia.

Whether they give her a spell now (which I doubt) or press on with the campaign I'm sure Jamie Richards will make the right decision.  Don't forget that yesterday was only her second up run from after a spell - with her first up winning the Grp 1 Thorndon Mile after a 12 week break. Unless she has done what mares do and has switched off she will race again in Australia.  She is nominated for the Coolmore (1600m) and the Queen Elizabeth (2000) on 10 April.

So if you want to factually evaluate her run yesterday:

• second up over 2000m after winning a Grp 1 after a 12 week break;
• the Thorndon Mile was a soft win - hardly a Grp 1 class race, a small field and a slow time;
• caught flat footed in the Herbie Dyke on a slow pace - first 1200m in 1:16;
• knocked over on the turn a couple of times and then blocked for racing room;
• not pushed;
• still wouldn't be race hard yet.

Write her off?  Yeah na!

[Huey]

59 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Remind me not to subscribe to your tipping service.  Seems to be as good as Thomarse's.  Actually I'd be willing to take a wager that she bounces back.  

She's going to Australia there is no doubt.  As was discussed yesterday she is heading to the Magic Millions Broodmare sale regardless of how many more runs she has.  No harm in trying your hand in some of those Brisbane races at the winter carnival.  She won the Sire's Produce beating Pierata.

In her last hit and run to Australia she did run 3rd in the MacKinnon Stakes to a useful horse in Arcadia Queen.  She is a previous Grp 1 winner in Australia.

Whether they give her a spell now (which I doubt) or press on with the campaign I'm sure Jamie Richards will make the right decision.  Don't forget that yesterday was only her second up run from after a spell - with her first up winning the Grp 1 Thorndon Mile after a 12 week break. Unless she has done what mares do and has switched off she will race again in Australia.  She is nominated for the Coolmore (1600m) and the Queen Elizabeth (2000) on 10 April.

So if you want to factually evaluate her run yesterday:

• second up over 2000m after winning a Grp 1 after a 12 week break;
• the Thorndon Mile was a soft win - hardly a Grp 1 class race, a small field and a slow time;
• caught flat footed in the Herbie Dyke on a slow pace - first 1200m in 1:16;
• knocked over on the turn a couple of times and then blocked for racing room;
• not pushed;
• still wouldn't be race hard yet.

Write her off?  Yeah na!

I'm with Horace , I'd be surprised if she won a G1 in Aus. on that run. 

The fields are only going to get better in Aus.

 

[Chief Stipe]

41 minutes ago, Huey said:

I'm with Horace , I'd be surprised if she won a G1 in Aus. on that run. 

The fields are only going to get better in Aus.

 

Yes it wasn't a good run but there were excuses.  

Wouldn't write her off yet.  Although I don’t rate her as a top line Grp 1 horse in OZ there are plenty of options over there if placed right.  She showed that with the Empire Rose and a 2nd and a 3rd in the Mackinnon.

Those three races alone netted her a $1M.

I'm surprised the Te Akau baggers have yet to comment on the Brando and Khama Lass runs.  They both looked underdone. 

I'm not sure yet that other than Baker/Forsman if NZ Trainers get their horses wound up enough to compete first up over there.  Easy over there when you look at the class of some of the Metrop trials.

[Huey]

5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yes it wasn't a good run but there were excuses.  

Wouldn't write her off yet.  Although I don’t rate her as a top line Grp 1 horse in OZ there are plenty of options over there if placed right.  She showed that with the Empire Rose and a 2nd and a 3rd in the Mackinnon.

Those three races alone netted her a $1M.

I'm surprised the Te Akau baggers have yet to comment on the Brando and Khama Lass runs.  They both looked underdone. 

I'm not sure yet that other than Baker/Forsman if NZ Trainers get their horses wound up enough to compete first up over there.  Easy over there when you look at the class of some of the Metrop trials.

I'm not sure she is the same horse youre referring to CS, but lets hope youre right and she regains her form.

I thought the track might have caught KL out , Brando had a tough run and had excuses, looked smashing in the parade ring, love to see him standing in NZ.

[Horace]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yes it wasn't a good run but there were excuses.  

Wouldn't write her off yet.  Although I don’t rate her as a top line Grp 1 horse in OZ there are plenty of options over there if placed right.  She showed that with the Empire Rose and a 2nd and a 3rd in the Mackinnon.

Those three races alone netted her a $1M.

I'm surprised the Te Akau baggers have yet to comment on the Brando and Khama Lass runs.  They both looked underdone. 

I'm not sure yet that other than Baker/Forsman if NZ Trainers get their horses wound up enough to compete first up over there.  Easy over there when you look at the class of some of the Metrop trials.

Don't know if youre including me in that comment re te akau chief.nothing could be further from the truth. Their filly Amahlrina (sp?) looked very special winning the 3 yr old fillies race yesterday..she could be anything and has a beautiful action. I can see her in the Derby at Ellerslie. Richards has a great team behind him, he needs it with 175 horses actively in work ( according to nztr). 

 

[Chief Stipe]

On 14/02/2021 at 1:00 PM, Horace said:

Melody Belle carried 2kg less than the first 4 home, was beaten 8.1 lengths, and looked like a horse who has had enough.She's certainly been a champ..in NZ..but doesn't come close to Sunline who was a real champion, and won 2 Cox Plates. Jamie Richards said something before the race yesterday, about having a crack at a Group 1 in australia? On that run, forget it.

Melody Belle still on track for the Bonecrusher.

Connections pleased with Belle trial

NZ Racing Desk

2 March 2021

Star mare Melody Belle showed she was on track for the Gr.1 Bonecrusher New Zealand Stakes (2000m) with a solid hit-out at the Rotorua trials on Tuesday.

The Jamie Richards-trained six-year-old beat just one runner home when not having all favours in the Gr.1 Herbie Dyke Stakes (2000m) at Te Rapa last month but seemed her sparkling self on Tuesday.

The 13-time Group One winner relished the strong tempo set by Rhaegar in the 1230m heat and got the better of that rival late to win the trial, with stablemate Savy Yong Blonk powering home for third.

John Galvin, who manages the Melody Belle Fortuna Syndicate that owns the multiple New Zealand Horse of the Year, confirmed that Troy Harris, who partnered Melody Belle in the trial, would take the mount at Ellerslie on Saturday week.

“It was a very good trial. I think the strong pace set it up nicely for Melody Belle and gave her a good hit-out,” Galvin said.

“Troy actually had a devil of a job to pull her up past the post. The feedback from both Jamie and Troy was all positive and she is right on track for the Bonecrusher.

“Troy will be riding her in the Bonecrusher. He has won three Group Ones on her and is unbeaten on her. I have lost track, but he has had something like 13 rides in the Fortuna colours for 10 or 11 wins, so it has been a successful association.”

Melody Belle could potentially clash with star stablemate Avantage in the weight-for-age Ellerslie feature on March 13 and her performance will dictate future plans.

“The loose plan is that if she runs well in the Bonecrusher, she could then go to Australia where she is nominated on the second day of The Championships for both the Queen Elizabeth (Gr.1, 2000m) and the Coolmore Legacy Stakes (Gr.1, 1600m), so there are a few options once we get a guide from her run at Ellerslie,” Galvin said.

[Thomass]

Did she wear Blinkers?  

Because their modus is to remove Blinkers trial day and slap them back on race day...keeping her thinking

...even though the hopeless NZTR website is ALWAYS completely inaccurate when it come to trial gear...

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, Thomass said:

Did she wear Blinkers?  

Because their modus is to remove Blinkers trial day and slap them back on race day...keeping her thinking

...even though the hopeless NZTR website is ALWAYS completely inaccurate when it come to trial gear...

I thought you "watched every trial"?!  But knowing how devious you are you probably have watched the video and know the answer to your question.