Transparency?

[Chief Stipe]

On 14/02/2021 at 1:00 PM, Horace said:

Melody Belle carried 2kg less than the first 4 home, was beaten 8.1 lengths, and looked like a horse who has had enough.She's certainly been a champ..in NZ..but doesn't come close to Sunline who was a real champion, and won 2 Cox Plates. Jamie Richards said something before the race yesterday, about having a crack at a Group 1 in australia? On that run, forget it.

Any comments Horace?

[Horace]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Any comments Horace?

Yep she's handy. Set up for her tho, mostly handicappers who carried more weight, her stablemate tried but has been found out on a better track...but please don't mention her in the same sentence as Sunline. Now, there was an absolute champion. If your friends at TA can keep Melody Belle going until the spring, lets see her in the Cox Plate. She'd need to win that to get a tick as 'champion' from me. Unfortunately there are a number of Group races in NZ that are on the cusp of being downgraded....some of which MB has won.

[MaltedMilkshake]

1 hour ago, Horace said:

Yep she's handy. Set up for her tho, mostly handicappers who carried more weight, her stablemate tried but has been found out on a better track...but please don't mention her in the same sentence as Sunline. Now, there was an absolute champion. If your friends at TA can keep Melody Belle going until the spring, lets see her in the Cox Plate. She'd need to win that to get a tick as 'champion' from me. Unfortunately there are a number of Group races in NZ that are on the cusp of being downgraded....some of which MB has won.

Agree Horace...let’s keep everything in perspective. MB is the best NZ can offer, as we all know, the colts never get a chance because the heretics just keep flogging  them off.  But, as Horace has said, never, never mention her in the same breath as Sunline.  Her efforts are now in the record books, but it’s a very low key record in comparison and I’m sure some of her owners who are true racing people, would agree.   Most Group 1 races in NZ should not have that status, for various reasons. 
Good luck to her.  She is a lovely mare ....and the opposition she faces every start, highlights the ever diminishing state of NZ racing.

[Horace]

I think she's a sensational racemare...but looking at it subjectively and not emotionally gets me to the facts of my last post.

[Chief Stipe]

38 minutes ago, Horace said:

I think she's a sensational racemare...but looking at it subjectively and not emotionally gets me to the facts of my last post.

You mean objectively.  However putting to one side the dominance of one stable what are your solutions to the problem?  

[Horace]

I'm quite happy with 'subjective' thanks.

And whats the problem you refer to?

[Huey]

What a carnival it was... Yawn!!

A cashed up stable won the NZ Derby with an expensive Aus Bred ... Yawn!

Another cashed up stable quinella the 2yo G1 trial...sorry race with 2 expensive Aussie bred horses ... Yawn!

TA won 4 or 5 or 57 races in a day on one of the days or every day of the carnival , can't remember .. Yawn!

2 more Aus bred horses fought out another G1 from one of those cashed up stables mentioned before... Yawn!

 Bill Pomare a battler from Rotorua way won the G1 Auckland Cup! How has this been allowed to happen and why hasn't NZracing gotten ridden of his ilk yet?All those policies and initiatives introduced by NZracing are clearly not working as efficiently as needed to turn the big ship NZracing around! do they know he is a battler or have they mixed him up with another more prominent stable? I'm also hearing the horse was by a Kiwi based Sire? - Wonderful story and some reality that most of the industry can really aspire to.

Go the Tang....er..in.. Yawn!

 

 

[Chief Stipe]

13 hours ago, Horace said:

I'm quite happy with 'subjective' thanks.

 

17 hours ago, Horace said:

I think she's a sensational racemare...but looking at it subjectively and not emotionally gets me to the facts of my last post.

I think you are confused about the meaning of the word subject - it means "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions".  But if you are referring the facts then I would tend to agree with you.  Indeed I have posted similar thoughts on BOAY over the last 1 - 2 years about the horse in question Melody Belle.  To summarise the standard/quality of New Zealand racing overall has declined to a very low level over the last two decades and the decline seems to be accelerating.  That is even more evident when looking at our WFA and Open Handicap Grp races.

All that said in my opinion it would be somewhat churlish to not acknowledge and applaud Melody Belle's achievement of 14 Group wins.  The majority of her wins have been dominate and she can only beat the opposition that is put in front of her.

13 hours ago, Horace said:

And whats the problem you refer to?

The "problem" is - what has caused the decline of NZ racing?  Then the followup question is what in your opinion should be done to turn things around?

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Huey said:

A cashed up stable won the NZ Derby with an expensive Aus Bred ... Yawn!

So what does the cost of purchasing the horse have to do with it?  Surely you don't propose some market regulation?

2 hours ago, Huey said:

Another cashed up stable quinella the 2yo G1 trial...sorry race with 2 expensive Aussie bred horses ... Yawn!

 

Same comment as above.  The second horse cost $90,000 - hardly "expensive" in today's market.

2 hours ago, Huey said:

 Bill Pomare a battler from Rotorua way won the G1 Auckland Cup! How has this been allowed to happen and why hasn't NZracing gotten ridden of his ilk yet?All those policies and initiatives introduced by NZracing are clearly not working as efficiently as needed to turn the big ship NZracing around! do they know he is a battler or have they mixed him up with another more prominent stable? I'm also hearing the horse was by a Kiwi based Sire? - Wonderful story and some reality that most of the industry can really aspire to.

Yes wonderful story.  Yes there doesn't seem to have been as much positive publicity around the win.  However equally there hasn't been the same bashing either for the same reasons as the other Grp winners.  Arguably there is more material to "bash" with!

What was once one of the premier staying events of the NZ Racing Calendar (arguably THE premier staying event) has fallen to the level of a poor quality R90 (the average rating was R84).  Not even Handicap now but SW & P with a weight spread of 5kg's.  The second and third horses overseas bred.

So I pose the same questions - 

The "problem" is - what has caused the decline of NZ racing?  Then the followup question is what in your opinion should be done to turn things around?

[Pitman]

It’s all about money stakes and what young horses can be sold for

[Horace]

11 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

I think you are confused about the meaning of the word subject - it means "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions".  But if you are referring the facts then I would tend to agree with you.  Indeed I have posted similar thoughts on BOAY over the last 1 - 2 years about the horse in question Melody Belle.  To summarise the standard/quality of New Zealand racing overall has declined to a very low level over the last two decades and the decline seems to be accelerating.  That is even more evident when looking at our WFA and Open Handicap Grp races.

All that said in my opinion it would be somewhat churlish to not acknowledge and applaud Melody Belle's achievement of 14 Group wins.  The majority of her wins have been dominate and she can only beat the opposition that is put in front of her.

The "problem" is - what has caused the decline of NZ racing?  Then the followup question is what in your opinion should be done to turn things around?

What makes you think I give a flying fuck, chief? Over years and years I've seen millions and millions of dollars squandered on useless CEO's, Board Members, Chairmen of Boards, 'reports',wasted and pitiful efforts at renovating tracks...need I say more? And the latest disgrace..these so called synthetic tracks. Cambridge is the worst example of waste ( how much...$15million at least!). And still they persist. C George as CEO of NZ Racing..? Really? And still $10k maidens? So its clear that what you think, or what I think is irrelevant. Think Titanic. Think a great big iceberg. The two are closer than ever. Thats the industry imploding.

[Huey]

4 hours ago, Horace said:

What makes you think I give a flying fuck, chief? Over years and years I've seen millions and millions of dollars squandered on useless CEO's, Board Members, Chairmen of Boards, 'reports',wasted and pitiful efforts at renovating tracks...need I say more? And the latest disgrace..these so called synthetic tracks. Cambridge is the worst example of waste ( how much...$15million at least!). And still they persist. C George as CEO of NZ Racing..? Really? And still $10k maidens? So its clear that what you think, or what I think is irrelevant. Think Titanic. Think a great big iceberg. The two are closer than ever. Thats the industry imploding.

Exactly right, there is no point in even thinking about what's wrong, those in charge don't care,dont know and don't listen! You can do all the fb lives and bs stories you want but when the leadership keeps making f@@ked up decisions based on absolutely nothing ...there is no hope for a decent future.

Racing in NZ biggest problem has always been self interest and an inability to see the bigger picture, that wont change. The base of the industry is being crushed at the moment and has been since M report and BS coming on board . Unfortunately I fear it is only going to get worse!

[Freda]

Pretty much.

The M report is a convenient scapegoat, however, if the decline ( evident and accelerated since the Racing Act 2003 ) hadn't been happening we wouldn't have needed the Messara involvement. 

That eventuated as a desperate,  last-ditch effort to get Winston ( seen as a saviour by many) to do SOMETHING...and encouraged by Brian de Lore as a result of his close association with both those men.

I think de Lore now realizes that Winston wasn't the solution he thought, although, like it or not, he fleeced the taxpayer to keep the TAB functioning.

But, Messara made the point that his report was of little use if the TAB wasn't outsourced.  The other recommendations were only window-dressing and not to be ' cherry picked '  in isolation. 

That hasn't happened, typically. 

The b/s about lost racedays costing money was just that, pushed upon a gullible Winston by his wealthy Waikato supporters, similar to the track closure mantra perpetrated by Alan Jackson and others long before the M report saw the light of day.

Track closures, which have happened over the years for various reasons, should and will happen as a result of market forces, not some arbitrary decisions made by people who have shown no vision or ability to lead this industry so far.

[Freda]

And, for the record, I must clarify that I am not against  alternative surfaces wrt training, or racing when necessary.  They are in use world-wide, in most jurisdictions, and in both public and private training facilities.

But, it is significant, that across the ditch,  Victoria felt that 3 AWT's [ for racing ] was one too many,  Qld has had its issues with Toowoomba and has replaced with turf [ did I read Strathayr? ]  and V'Landy's won't hear of using an AWT for racing in NSW.

Plenty around for training of course.     The excellent UK poster, Stodge,  who posts regularly on another site,   has expressed the opinion that six AWT's is probably too many - and that is in the UK with its huge [ by our standards ] population , human and equine.

So where did the fantasy come from that li'l ol' NZ needed 3?   

And, while no doubt an excellent training aid, how does the beleaguered taxpayer get to fund three of the effing things?     Cambridge, at least, should have been able to fund its own - which will be certainly useful when their late winter/spring climate gives them their customary rain. 

As for producing an increase in revenue ..dunno about that.     I'd have no problem with being wrong, but I can't see how that will happen.

Closing provincial tracks, and scuttling holiday ' circuits'  with the aim of centralising,  isn't going to increase turnover as far as I can see...especially when the remaining turf tracks are as inconsistent and biased as we have seen recently, and with no plan going forward to renovate these on a rotational basis.

Racing on the AWT at Riccarton at the expense of Timaru,  Waimate, Motukarara, Marlborough, and eventually the West Coast, won't result in the turf track suddenly becoming the great surface that we would all love it to be, without extensive work and at significant cost....and a helluva lot of local interest and support will be lost at those venues. 

Add to all the above,  other issues, mainly NZTR ones, of the unbalanced funding model,  handicapping, weights, allowances, calendar structure, industry training, integrity..C.G...really?

      

 

 

 

 

[Horace]

3 hours ago, Freda said:

And, for the record, I must clarify that I am not against  alternative surfaces wrt training, or racing when necessary.  They are in use world-wide, in most jurisdictions, and in both public and private training facilities.

But, it is significant, that across the ditch,  Victoria felt that 3 AWT's [ for racing ] was one too many,  Qld has had its issues with Toowoomba and has replaced with turf [ did I read Strathayr? ]  and V'Landy's won't hear of using an AWT for racing in NSW.

Plenty around for training of course.     The excellent UK poster, Stodge,  who posts regularly on another site,   has expressed the opinion that six AWT's is probably too many - and that is in the UK with its huge [ by our standards ] population , human and equine.

So where did the fantasy come from that li'l ol' NZ needed 3?   

And, while no doubt an excellent training aid, how does the beleaguered taxpayer get to fund three of the effing things?     Cambridge, at least, should have been able to fund its own - which will be certainly useful when their late winter/spring climate gives them their customary rain. 

As for producing an increase in revenue ..dunno about that.     I'd have no problem with being wrong, but I can't see how that will happen.

Closing provincial tracks, and scuttling holiday ' circuits'  with the aim of centralising,  isn't going to increase turnover as far as I can see...especially when the remaining turf tracks are as inconsistent and biased as we have seen recently, and with no plan going forward to renovate these on a rotational basis.

Racing on the AWT at Riccarton at the expense of Timaru,  Waimate, Motukarara, Marlborough, and eventually the West Coast, won't result in the turf track suddenly becoming the great surface that we would all love it to be, without extensive work and at significant cost....and a helluva lot of local interest and support will be lost at those venues. 

Add to all the above,  other issues, mainly NZTR ones, of the unbalanced funding model,  handicapping, weights, allowances, calendar structure, industry training, integrity..C.G...really?

      

 

 

 

 

Well said Freda. And I should add that I have actually got some 'skin' in the industry. I've bred/trained/sold/raced a number of horses. I've been involved at Committee level on a major club. I've heard and seen the bullshit. People get appointed to poisitions within racing in NZ not because they're particuarly good or experienced...in the main its because they drink at the right pub or went to the right school/university. Its called the Old Boys Club. Yep, its alive and well in 2021 ( refer to comment above re C.G.!) And the worst offender by a country mile? Auckland Racing Club. Without a doubt. A so called ' premier' race club serving up shit tracks year after year...can't race in winter...too precious to have horses trained there...and its an absolute no-brainer that when the $$ where being handed out for tracks ( i.e. Cambridge etc) the ARC should have been lobbying strenuously for funds to at least help upgrade their shit track to a World class venue, i.e. Strathayr. Too much incestuous behaviour between NZ Bloodstock and Auckland Racing Club imho!