List of the number of drug positives in Harness Racing in the last 10 years.

[the galah]

Tell me,do you think someone who may take,or supply people with drugs,would think twice about doing so to horses. Yes or no? 

[the galah]

Noodlum,tell me did you believe nicky chilcott when she said she imported epo just to use in training,not at the races?

[Noodlum]

11 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

quite some time ago i formed the opinion that these people getting caught were only trying to keep up and barely succeeding at that

But keep up with what?  I've read all the cases of those I've listed.  The dodgiest one surprised me.  It was a cobalt case.  

99% of the cases were mistakes not deliberate attempts to cheat.

Now for the conspiracy theorists that support the theory that there is an underbelly of cheats using performance enhancing drugs and doping their horses to high heaven the only explanation can be is that the RIU's testing regime is woefully inadequate.  

The Tramadol/Chilcott case and Professor Tobin's evidence is the classic case.  I remember at the time that everyone was bagging Chilcott to the level of personally abusing her.  That to me is what stinks about the industry.  Some arseholes are quick to throw stones mostly driven by envy.

[the galah]

Noodlum,tell me did you believe Lance Justice when he said he had not given dmso to his horse in the timeframe alleged,despite scientific evidence saying his version of events was not plausable. And besides dmso makes a horse smell for a few days,but obviously justice had no sense of smell.

[the galah]

Noodlum i do think the way you and a vocal minority of others, argue this topic is a strategy that has worked in the past. That is make all this noise that those involved are being unfairly persecuted, that those doing the enforcing are all arseholes, and that authorities had better not keep going down this track otherwise there will be a revoult within the ranks. Nice work.

[Noodlum]

4 minutes ago, the galah said:

Tell me,do you think someone who may take,or supply people with drugs,would think twice about doing so to horses. Yes or no? 

Yes they would think twice because they know that every time their horse is swabbed or blood taken that they don't have to do the same!  But where do you draw the line?  Did you know that half the population have used marijuana?  Or that more than half of our youth by the time they get to University have taken one or more recreational drugs?

Where is the evidence that there is extensive use of performance enhancing drugs?

[the galah]

Just now, Noodlum said:

Yes they would think twice because they know that every time their horse is swabbed or blood taken that they don't have to do the same!  But where do you draw the line?  Did you know that half the population have used marijuana?  Or that more than half of our youth by the time they get to University have taken one or more recreational drugs?

Where is the evidence that there is extensive use of performance enhancing drugs?

So that would be a no.  By the way. Have you heard they do workplace testing for drugs now. They even have tests to see if you drive cars under the influence of drugs. What next will they come up with?

[Karrots]

Has there ever been a case where a new excited owner, was finishing the final touches of nail polish & went rushing out to see the horsies.

Touching the wooden fence & nail polish had not completely dried, & then later the horsies ate the wooden fence with the nail polish on it?

Just curious.

[Noodlum]

6 minutes ago, the galah said:

Noodlum,tell me did you believe Lance Justice when he said he had not given dmso to his horse in the timeframe alleged,despite scientific evidence saying his version of events was not plausable. And besides dmso makes a horse smell for a few days,but obviously justice had no sense of smell.

As always Galah you are cherry picking.  Have you read the lengthy RIU decisions on the Smoken Up positive?  There are lots of issues.  For example how does a control sample return a positive to DMSO?  That should never ever happen.

[Noodlum]

7 minutes ago, the galah said:

So that would be a no.  By the way. Have you heard they do workplace testing for drugs now. They even have tests to see if you drive cars under the influence of drugs. What next will they come up with?

What's your point in relation to this debate?

[Noodlum]

5 minutes ago, Karrots said:

Has there ever been a case where a new excited owner, was finishing the final touches of nail polish & went rushing out to see the horsies.

Touching the wooden fence & nail polish had not completely dried, & then later the horsies ate the wooden fence with the nail polish on it?

Just curious.

There have been instances of arsenic being detected from horses chewing fence posts.  

[the galah]

1 minute ago, Noodlum said:

As always Galah you are cherry picking.  Have you read the lengthy RIU decisions on the Smoken Up positive?  There are lots of issues.  For example how does a control sample return a positive to DMSO?  That should never ever happen.

Actually i did. And actually i have read virtually all of the cases you have referred to. You see its a subject i'm interested in,so i like to broaden my knowledge so i at least think i know what i'm talking about. I even used to read many of the aussie ones.

the one i had sympathy for was allan beck as he was honest with the riu and admitted giving his horse a product which was the cause of the positive.He had done so not thinking it would return a positive,more negligent than intent. Because of his admission he was charged with the far more serious offence. And since then anyone who's  horse returns a positive knows not to admit anything. How many times have you read the decisions of the jca where it has said the charge before them is the lesser charge and they do not have to rule on intent.

 

[the galah]

8 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

What's your point in relation to this debate?

Do a hunter and have a guess.

 

 

[Noodlum]

15 minutes ago, the galah said:

Noodlum i do think the way you and a vocal minority of others, argue this topic is a strategy that has worked in the past. That is make all this noise that those involved are being unfairly persecuted, that those doing the enforcing are all arseholes, and that authorities had better not keep going down this track otherwise there will be a revoult within the ranks. Nice work.

BUT WHAT THE FUCK are they enforcing?  As yet they have come up with SFA in terms of performance enhancing drug use and even less when it comes to match fixing.  The closest they have got is with Alford but as yet we don't know what was in the syringes.  Hell I'm damn interested to know what it is!

From what I've seen so far is a whole lot of collateral damage, home goals and stuff all else.  "We know you are cheating because someone called our snitch line and told us.  We are going to harass and harass you until you break.  We'll get you."  But when it comes to the testing regime what have they proven?  SFA!  Look at this list.  Where are the big goals?  The big wins?

Hell you aren't dealing with Trainers who are highly educated sophisticated chemists who spend zillions on the latest high tech drugs and masking agents.

By the way I'm on a public transport bus and I'm not wearing a mask.  Give Cindy a ring.

[Noodlum]

2 minutes ago, the galah said:

the one i had sympathy for was allan beck as he was honest with the riu and admitted giving his horse a product which was the cause of the positive.He had done so not thinking it would return a positive,more negligent than intent. Because of his admission he was charged with the far more serious offence. And since then anyone who's  horse returns a positive knows not to admit anything. How many times have you read the decisions of the jca where it has said the charge before them is the lesser charge and they do not have to rule on intent.

Well you obviously read them with one eye closed.  No sympathy for Walkinshaw, Hoffman, Clementson?  Or the Smith's?  Or any of the feed additive stuff ups?  For substances that have zero performance enhancing effects at the measured doses?

[Noodlum]

9 minutes ago, the galah said:

Actually i did.

 

Then didn't you find the testing sloppy where controls can provide positives?

One of the significant things about the Smoken Up/LJ Justice case was the identifying of serious issues with NZ's testing protocols and procedures.  I think one of the outcomes after that was to tighten those things up and have a protocol in place to use overseas racing jurisdiction labs such as the Hong Kong one.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Noodlum

[the galah]

8 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

There have been instances of arsenic being detected from horses chewing fence posts.  

Maybe you should actually read some of the Australia decisions relating to that.One in particular was investigated thoroughly. You see authorities produced evidence of a particular "tonic' being distributed to some trainers,knew that tonic had arsenic as an ingredient,had intelligence the trainer with the arsenic positive was an associate of the alleged distributor,but at the end of the day did not prove the more serious charge because those making the decision accepted there was arsenic in fence posts and what they had been painted with,and while it was unlikely that they would eat a product that was supposed to repulse them,they could not rule that the more serious charge was proved.

[hunterthepunter]

galah why did three trainers give up training and go and work for Riu  when tcso2  readings started? were good trainers and then they could not train winners 

[the galah]

7 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

Well you obviously read them with one eye closed.  No sympathy for Walkinshaw, Hoffman, Clementson?  Or the Smith's?  Or any of the feed additive stuff ups?  For substances that have zero performance enhancing effects at the measured doses?

Walkinshaw for sure. His read like it was not his fault.

[hunterthepunter]

2 minutes ago, the galah said:

Walkinshaw for sure. His read like it was not his fault.

sheep are injected with cobalt b12 are they doped?

[Noodlum]

1 minute ago, the galah said:

Walkinshaw for sure. His read like it was not his fault.

But you only had sympathy for one case before?

The fact is there are 28 cases in the last 10 years.  Less than 3 a year.

27 Trainers.

The only performance enhancing drug found was Caffeine.  Except for the Dunn case where no source could be found (assumed to be knobbling) the source was identified as a misused feed additive.

Cobalt - mostly feed additive issues with only one case where there was evidence of intravenous administration.

Ketoprofen (Ouvrail) - a gel used to treat muscle pain and inflammation.

One case of "Bute" - withholding period issue.

TCO2 - several cases ranging from 0.2-3mg/l over the threshold.

DMSO - two cases - one Smoken Up and the other a withholding period issue.  Note - DMSO is not a prohibited substance.

 

 

[Noodlum]

8 minutes ago, hunterthepunter said:

sheep are injected with cobalt b12 are they doped?

I see Galah seems to have not taken your question seriously but you raise a valid point.  The vitamin B12 has Cobalt as part of its makeup.

[the galah]

5 minutes ago, hunterthepunter said:

galah why did three trainers give up training and go and work for Riu  when tcso2  readings started? were good trainers and then they could not train winners 

Tco2 testing was introduced because of the obvious advantage it was giving those that used it properly. It was also used as a masking agent was it not. I read a lot of studies ,one in australia from memory said tests showed its use was rife in harness racing at the time,and levels being returned were ridiculously high and it appeared some were working on the theory that the more they gave there horse,the faster it may run,but that wasn't true. But that was then. While it was not tested for those who used it here weren't legally doing anything wrong.

Maybe the best current reference to how effective testing is would be to refer to the new york indictments against several well known trainers and vets,who it seemed manufactured performance enhancers that would not return positives. That will be an interesting case to follow,as it was said to be distributed to many countries,including australia. Who knows where else.

[Gammalite]

47 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

But keep up with what?  I've read all the cases of those I've listed.  The dodgiest one surprised me.  It was a cobalt case.  

99% of the cases were mistakes not deliberate attempts to cheat.

Cobalt is a very 'tricky' one , and very current , some Disqualified , some not (esp Thoroughbred)

I can't say any of this List by Noodlum are mistakes . The horses are given something 'deliberately' as a way of making them feel good, look good, go good.........  (and be near winning all going well)

whether feed, inject or tube drench the trainer should know EVERYTHING that is going into that horse. It is his/her responsibility to KNOW the LIMITS>

personally I think a few of the positives are 'Internal Sabotage' from disgruntled staff , at larger operations. Waller has had problems with this, with large amounts of staff. He also had 4 horses disqualified for Positives from contaminated feed. (the feed company was blamed for the error??????) and he got off.

Why doesn't everyone just say that then ? 

[hunterthepunter]

2 minutes ago, the galah said:

Tco2 testing was introduced because of the obvious advantage it was giving those that used it properly. It was also used as a masking agent was it not. I read a lot of studies ,one in australia from memory said tests showed its use was rife in harness racing at the time,and levels being returned were ridiculously high and it appeared some were working on the theory that the more they gave there horse,the faster it may run,but that wasn't true. But that was then. While it was not tested for those who used it here weren't legally doing anything wrong.

Maybe the best current reference to how effective testing is would be to refer to the new york indictments against several well known trainers and vets,who it seemed manufactured performance enhancers that would not return positives. That will be an interesting case to follow,as it was said to be distributed to many countries,including australia. Who knows where else.

why did they stop training when testing come in? and go work for Riu?