Is there a trend emerging? Smaller fields and less races per meeting?

[Chief Stipe]

I haven't done an analysis of the data but there seems to be a consistent trend emerging.  Are the race meetings starting to have less races and smaller fields?

[nomates]

46 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I haven't done an analysis of the data but there seems to be a consistent trend emerging.  Are the race meetings starting to have less races and smaller fields?

The less fields thing has been around since they began the monday races a few years back , when that fell over they just stayed with the smaller programmes , prior to that we regularly had 9/10 races per day . Now they programme 7/8 and if numbers are there they split .

Also i believe horse numbers aren't the same , the bigger problem for me is the quality , look at Otaki today , absolutely attrocious fields , a handful of nice horses the rest of the day is hard to promote betting . 

As has been discussed the number of young horses sold out of NZ that only have to show a modicum of ability before they are snapped up is becoming alarming . This obviously leads to diluting the product that is left . But more recently we have seen the lack of top quality horses left to compete in our Group races . 

They also don't want too many races , especially Saturdays , with the higher stakes i don't believe they are funding themselves thru betting revenue so less races mitigates the loss in stakes funding .

[Chief Stipe]

23 minutes ago, nomates said:

They also don't want too many races , especially Saturdays , with the higher stakes i don't believe they are funding themselves thru betting revenue so less races mitigates the loss in stakes funding .

That's head in the sand though and under the new model where more costs have been devolved to the codes the day of reckoning might be only a season away.

[mikeynz]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

I haven't done an analysis of the data but there seems to be a consistent trend emerging.  Are the race meetings starting to have less races and smaller fields?

I had a look at the fields for Southland,below average really,one thing that come to mind though was why run 2 open handicap races,1600 and 1200 for 15000 each,there are 5 in one and 6 in the other,why not run one for 30000,it would probably get more entries for a start and probably would bump up the numbers for the supporting races,Riverton did well a fortnight ago,seems a bit odd a lot are absent for this meeting,just a thought anyway.

[Freda]

Pitty won't run at Ascot,  so that takes a few out of the mix.

But, without actually looking at races both leading up and following on, I can't comment other than to agree that programming generally is interesting. 

[Chief Stipe]

29 minutes ago, mikeynz said:

I had a look at the fields for Southland,below average really,one thing that come to mind though was why run 2 open handicap races,1600 and 1200 for 15000 each,there are 5 in one and 6 in the other,why not run one for 30000,it would probably get more entries for a start and probably would bump up the numbers for the supporting races,Riverton did well a fortnight ago,seems a bit odd a lot are absent for this meeting,just a thought anyway.

More chance of two $15k races paying their way than a $30k one.  Probably better to have a $20k race.

[Ludwig]

18 minutes ago, Freda said:

Pitty won't run at Ascot,  so that takes a few out of the mix.

But, without actually looking at races both leading up and following on, I can't comment other than to agree that programming generally is interesting. 

Do you have any tracks where you refuse to race on principle.? Is this common among trainers?

[Freda]

20 minutes ago, Ludwig said:

Do you have any tracks where you refuse to race on principle.? Is this common among trainers?

Me ?  no...but everyone is entitled to make their own assessments and decisions.   There are some tracks that I may avoid - given certain track conditions - with particular horses however.

[mikeynz]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I haven't done an analysis of the data but there seems to be a consistent trend emerging.  Are the race meetings starting to have less races and smaller fields?

7 races and about 65 horses give or take a few at Ruakaka yesty,is this really viable,how many horses are trained there,with Counties Sunday and Matamata Friday, Te Rapa Saturday, ain't there enough meetings up north.

Otaki today have 7 races today,Hastings only 8 Saturday,it seems a long time since the spike in numbers after the lockdown.

[Chief Stipe]

41 minutes ago, Freda said:

Me ?  no...but everyone is entitled to make their own assessments and decisions.   There are some tracks that I may avoid - given certain track conditions - with particular horses however.

Riccarton?

[Huey]

The industry is in a very sad state, despite what many would have you believe. The changes made particularly around venues have only made things worse as like most decisions in the industry they are ill thought out and made by persons who have no empathy or knowledge of how the sport operates.

The only existence I can see for racing in nz in the future is if it continues to cannibalise itself , which I think is its only way of survival. Lets be honest a lot  of the players dont care they are coming to the end of it at any rate.

I think a largely over looked a major problem for the sport in the future is it just isnt generating enough public interest anymore , people dont know when the races are on anymore, dont know when their local horses are going around and cant depend or plan around it anymore. Its losing all relevance even amongst the hardcore followers of it, thats got to be scary for the future.

 

[mikeynz]

1 hour ago, Huey said:

The industry is in a very sad state, despite what many would have you believe. The changes made particularly around venues have only made things worse as like most decisions in the industry they are ill thought out and made by persons who have no empathy or knowledge of how the sport operates.

The only existence I can see for racing in nz in the future is if it continues to cannibalise itself , which I think is its only way of survival. Lets be honest a lot  of the players dont care they are coming to the end of it at any rate.

I think a largely over looked a major problem for the sport in the future is it just isnt generating enough public interest anymore , people dont know when the races are on anymore, dont know when their local horses are going around and cant depend or plan around it anymore. Its losing all relevance even amongst the hardcore followers of it, thats got to be scary for the future.

 

It's not just racing that's losing its relevance, like it ir not rugby is now less relevant,apart from the ABS most be people dont give a shit,its just our changing society,super rugby is just to make money to pay players,below that it too has issues too,no one watching at the ground,NPC, club rugby is almost being killed off,possibly not in the rural towns as such,our society is changing,despite all our so called knowledge society as a whole seems to be taking a 2 steps forward,3 back,we arnt really a smarter society in reality.

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Huey said:

The industry is in a very sad state, despite what many would have you believe. The changes made particularly around venues have only made things worse as like most decisions in the industry they are ill thought out and made by persons who have no empathy or knowledge of how the sport operates.

The only existence I can see for racing in nz in the future is if it continues to cannibalise itself , which I think is its only way of survival. Lets be honest a lot  of the players dont care they are coming to the end of it at any rate.

I think a largely over looked a major problem for the sport in the future is it just isnt generating enough public interest anymore , people dont know when the races are on anymore, dont know when their local horses are going around and cant depend or plan around it anymore. Its losing all relevance even amongst the hardcore followers of it, thats got to be scary for the future.

 

Totally agree , it is hard to see what the solve is . And if people who have a better knowledge of our industry than the ones in charge can't come up with solutions then where do we go . As you say it's is just keep cannibilising itself , in ever decreasing circles till we are left a bit like HK or Singy , or worse death .

Solutions , well i have spent a lot of thought and discussion with others in the game but the issues are so wide spread we can't come up with where we start . We need more horses , bigger stakes , more young people getting involved in the industry rather than just keep importing staff , and a host of other issues .

The money being offered from off shore for anything that shows some ability is ridiculous so how do we stop that , better stakes helps but geez gonna take huge increases to stop people selling and race instead . Levies on sales help but if someone is offering me 200k then i just say i will pay the levy for the buyer i.e. take 180k instead , will battle to win half that here so win, win .

The biggest single warning sign for me is that they simply can't come out with a clear plan of what they are want to achieve and clear succint plan on how they are going to achieve it along with rock solid financial figures to back it up . The toilet paper they came out with 2 weeks ago is simply a party political statement , issued to placate the plebs for while till they can think up some other lazy piece of literature to carry them along for little bit more . 

No one in the industry on the ground has any idea where we are going or where we are going to end up . Every body i know accepts there will be pain but they will accept it as long as they knew there is an end game , but alas the tunnel seems never ending .

Oh for our V'Landys to turn up , i would actually subscribe to help pay his wages .

[nomates]

1 minute ago, mikeynz said:

It's not just racing that's losing its relevance, like it ir not rugby is now less relevant,apart from the ABS most be people dont give a shit,its just our changing society,super rugby is just to make money to pay players,below that it too has issues too,no one watching at the ground,NPC, club rugby is almost being killed off,possibly not in the rural towns as such,our society is changing,despite all our so called knowledge society as a whole seems to be taking a 2 steps forward,3 back,we arnt really a smarter society in reality.

Socially especially .

[Huey]

54 minutes ago, mikeynz said:

It's not just racing that's losing its relevance, like it ir not rugby is now less relevant,apart from the ABS most be people dont give a shit,its just our changing society,super rugby is just to make money to pay players,below that it too has issues too,no one watching at the ground,NPC, club rugby is almost being killed off,possibly not in the rural towns as such,our society is changing,despite all our so called knowledge society as a whole seems to be taking a 2 steps forward,3 back,we arnt really a smarter society in reality.

I agree regarding rugby,  but it's still no where near as terminal as racing appears to be.

Racing in NZ they took your local course, they took your free to air tv, they took your radio, they took your fields from the paper, they screwed up your weekly racing paper(distribution of it is a sad joke) , they made it hard to spend a Saturday out punting with friends by closing TABs or putting facilities in unsuitable or uninterested venues, they have the most inept programming and calendar for racing anywhere, they make it hard for you to see your horse on race day, they never made any plans around recruiting for staff especially riders when the industry told them to years ago and to top it all off they will not listen to a word you say unless you are from one of the big 5 stables or big 3 studs and they are telling you all the time things are getting better...yeah right!

[Huey]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

Totally agree , it is hard to see what the solve is . And if people who have a better knowledge of our industry than the ones in charge can't come up with solutions then where do we go . As you say it's is just keep cannibilising itself , in ever decreasing circles till we are left a bit like HK or Singy , or worse death .

Solutions , well i have spent a lot of thought and discussion with others in the game but the issues are so wide spread we can't come up with where we start . We need more horses , bigger stakes , more young people getting involved in the industry rather than just keep importing staff , and a host of other issues .

The money being offered from off shore for anything that shows some ability is ridiculous so how do we stop that , better stakes helps but geez gonna take huge increases to stop people selling and race instead . Levies on sales help but if someone is offering me 200k then i just say i will pay the levy for the buyer i.e. take 180k instead , will battle to win half that here so win, win .

The biggest single warning sign for me is that they simply can't come out with a clear plan of what they are want to achieve and clear succint plan on how they are going to achieve it along with rock solid financial figures to back it up . The toilet paper they came out with 2 weeks ago is simply a party political statement , issued to placate the plebs for while till they can think up some other lazy piece of literature to carry them along for little bit more . 

No one in the industry on the ground has any idea where we are going or where we are going to end up . Every body i know accepts there will be pain but they will accept it as long as they knew there is an end game , but alas the tunnel seems never ending .

Oh for our V'Landys to turn up , i would actually subscribe to help pay his wages .

Unfortunately NM if this person appears in NZ they will be shot to pieces by the status quo and unable to get into a position to establish themselves.  You see one of the big issues in NZ racing is that decisions need to be made that will level out the playing field somewhat, which will disadvantage several of the bigger players in the industry and therefore will not be allowed to happen. Years ago I thought the industry was every show of survival with some common sense leadership,  but alas we simply haven't had any.

Unfortunately in today's world doing regular Roadshows & FB lives is seen as listening to the industry as those are the areas you can point to as your attempt to engage with the industry whilst stabbing it in the back.

[nomates]

7 minutes ago, Huey said:

I agree regarding rugby,  but it's still no where near as terminal as racing appears to be.

Racing in NZ they took your local course, they took your free to air tv, they took your radio, they took your fields from the paper, they screwed up your weekly racing paper(distribution of it is a sad joke) , they made it hard to spend a Saturday out punting with friends by closing TABs or putting facilities in unsuitable or uninterested venues, they have the most inept programming and calendar for racing anywhere, they make it hard for you to see your horse on race day, they never made any plans around recruiting for staff especially riders when the industry told them to years ago and to top it all off they will not listen to a word you say unless you are from one of the big 5 stables or big 3 studs and they are telling you all the time things are getting better...yeah right!

The only thing i would say in regards the big stables and studs , their self interest keeps them mute , i don't believe they are telling the power mugs that they are right , it's just that they are not saying strongly enough " you guys are Fucking it up " , i just believe that they are doing sweet and don't want to rock the boat . David Ellis talks it up because he wants to syndicate horses . Where as i see it as their duty to stand up for the small guys and the betterment of the industry . 

If things get so bad that there was a collapse the studs will be fine , the big stables , well Baker is retiring shortly , Foresman moves to Aus , he has a reputation so wont battle for patronage , same with Te Akau and JR , and Marsh and the others , they have money behind to start up .

The position the top guys hold demands that they start speaking up loudly and long , but as with everything else in this world , money rules . 

[nomates]

15 minutes ago, Huey said:

Unfortunately NM if this person appears in NZ they will be shot to pieces by the status quo and unable to get into a position to establish themselves.  You see one of the big issues in NZ racing is that decisions need to be made that will level out the playing field somewhat, which will disadvantage several of the bigger players in the industry and therefore will not be allowed to happen. Years ago I thought the industry was every show of survival with some common sense leadership,  but alas we simply haven't had any.

Unfortunately in today's world doing regular Roadshows & FB lives is seen as listening to the industry as those are the areas you can point to as your attempt to engage with the industry whilst stabbing it in the back.

That's why you need a V'Landys , he comes in makes all the decisions , takes no shit . He done it with NSW racing , He's done it with the NRL , yea a lot of moaners , but when he's getting it right they have SFA to bitch about . 

I reckon if you offered him enough he would take a serious look . We might look like a battle field for a while , but as i said as long as people know that it's short term pain for long term gain , they will jump on board .

The biggest hurdle would be that the people who could try and get him or someone like him in , don't want to because he will show them up as the incompetants that they are . Yet again , self interest . 

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, mikeynz said:

It's not just racing that's losing its relevance, like it ir not rugby is now less relevant,apart from the ABS most be people dont give a shit,its just our changing society,super rugby is just to make money to pay players,below that it too has issues too,no one watching at the ground,NPC, club rugby is almost being killed off,possibly not in the rural towns as such,our society is changing,despite all our so called knowledge society as a whole seems to be taking a 2 steps forward,3 back,we arnt really a smarter society in reality.

I disagree.  There has been a resurgence in some areas in Club rugby.  Why?  Because some unions have recognised that a strong club network results in a strong professional team e.g. Canterbury.  Canterbury has also invested in their feeder Unions - e.g. West Coast, Tasman, etc.  The Crusaders don't always play their homes games in Christchurch.

In Auckland high school rugby is very very strong.  Literally thousands will turn up to games with next to no facilities that would make any racing club in NZ envious.  Where Auckland falls down is in the next level between school and the professional teams.  They are slowly starting to recognise this.

Unfortunately the value of our provincial and small town racing clubs has not been recognised.  Racing Clubs that provide good racing surfaces and at low cost.  The central administrators think they need to have better and better facilities and lots of peripheral entertainment to attract people oncourse but neglect or disenfranchise those that feed into the network.    

[Chief Stipe]

I've told a couple of key people in the industry that if I had a good two year old at the moment that was a potential 2000 Guineas competitor I would not want it to travel to Riccarton come November UNLESS there was a clear plan NOW to resolve the issues that the track has.  If it was good enough to win then I would be looking to Australia as I don't have a lot of confidence in Te Rapa, Awapuni or Trentham either.

I've been a long term critic of Ellerslie however that track seems to be racing better now but will leave judgement until after I have walked it.

Te Rapa has had some renovation work done recently which was mentioned by the Track Manager in a preview for this weekends meeting.  The rail is out 2m because the inside has not recovered to the same level as further out.  Will be interesting to see how it plays.

[Huey]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

I've told a couple of key people in the industry that if I had a good two year old at the moment that was a potential 2000 Guineas competitor I would not want it to travel to Riccarton come November UNLESS there was a clear plan NOW to resolve the issues that the track has.  If it was good enough to win then I would be looking to Australia as I don't have a lot of confidence in Te Rapa, Awapuni or Trentham either.

I've been a long term critic of Ellerslie however that track seems to be racing better now but will leave judgement until after I have walked it.

Te Rapa has had some renovation work done recently which was mentioned by the Track Manager in a preview for this weekends meeting.  The rail is out 2m because the inside has not recovered to the same level as further out.  Will be interesting to see how it plays.

Has Ellerslie benefitted from less racing?

What the nim wits dont understand is the smaller provincial clubs should be utilized to provide the industry product and the metro the premier not both. There probably should be less premier clubs in nz for obvious reasons.