Ellerslie Hill

[Freda]

Any thoughts on the affects of this impending development of this area, whether is be a ' sale ' in its entirety, or a sell/lease type of deal ?

If the mooted actions do in fact take place, with modern, purpose-built training facilities at Pukekohe, there may be trainers now incumbent at Cambridge or Matamata who see the proximity to the 'new' Ellerslie, with its Strathayr ,  much reduced travelling times,  regular racing and and large stake increases, as being the next logical step forward for their businesses.

Where, then, does that leave other regions [ particularly the Sth Island and specifically Riccarton ] in terms of appeal?

Would a 'satellite' stable then be required for, say, a Cambridge trainer?    

[Chief Stipe]

30 minutes ago, Freda said:

Would a 'satellite' stable then be required for, say, a Cambridge trainer?

Why would you bother?  Great Stakes, great surface at Ellerslie (when built) and Metro Tracks in OZ are closer than Riccarton.

Winter turf training and racing at Ruakaka.

[Freda]

Well, yes.   My thoughts too.    I was just pondering the likelihood of  relocation of trainers to Riccarton which was considered very probable, following the new AWT and programming changes favouring that.

For example, the Marsh team at the moment, has stables here and Cambridge.   Would the Pukekohe option not be more attractive?  Three stable bases?  or pull Riccarton?

Interesting times.

[Huey]

Well you've got to ask what impact this would have on the AWT patronage if it did happen, as you've point out Freda most will simply ship out to the new Strath track, possibly leaving some white elephants behind?

One thing is for sure the days of country racing and smaller clubs holding race days is fast approaching its end, not sure the new approach will lead to any greater involvement in the sport than the grass roots has created but then these people with power point presentations know far more than most of us do. 

[Gospel of Judas]

Wonder if anyone done a cost benefit analysis ? simulation analyst? incremental cashflow  analyst? Economic Value Analyst? or non of the options? Going with later one based on usually skills got in NZ Racing...

[Huey]

9 hours ago, Gospel of Judas said:

Wonder if anyone done a cost benefit analysis ? simulation analyst? incremental cashflow  analyst? Economic Value Analyst? or non of the options? Going with later one based on usually skills got in NZ Racing...

I'm sure something has been done , based on what many are saying about the presentation, I'd also be somewhat more confident the ARC are more competent in this space than NZTR are.

The aspect I struggle with though is what is in it for the ARC? They are potentially going to be subsidising loss making races via diversified investments they have made and therefore out of the kindness of their hearts for the benefit of the industry?  yes they would have the catering functions side , but being realistic would that be any different to what they have now? I mean just because you put a Strath in and increase prizemoney does anyone really think outside of existing carnivals that the crowds will flock  back to racing?

[nomates]

10 hours ago, Gospel of Judas said:

Wonder if anyone done a cost benefit analysis ? simulation analyst? incremental cashflow  analyst? Economic Value Analyst?

Your going to provide some sort of dictionary with those words , they wouldn't have a clue what your talking about other wise .

[Chief Stipe]

25 minutes ago, Huey said:

I mean just because you put a Strath in and increase prizemoney does anyone really think outside of existing carnivals that the crowds will flock  back to racing?

They may well do due to an improvement in the quality of the racing.

What the ARC needs to do though is cultivate inclusion of the surrounding clubs.  The resurgence in OZ racing seems to coming from country racing.  

[Huey]

3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

They may well do due to an improvement in the quality of the racing.

What the ARC needs to do though is cultivate inclusion of the surrounding clubs.  The resurgence in OZ racing seems to coming from country racing.  

I understand that is the premise behind it, but increase interest to the extent they can run ave. $100k races? Seems a bit outlandish to me.

and yet we seem to be heading in the opposite direction.

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, Huey said:

I understand that is the premise behind it, but increase interest to the extent they can run ave. $100k races? Seems a bit outlandish to me.

and yet we seem to be heading in the opposite direction.

As Freda has eluded to it will suck the life out of some provinces.  Why would you have a satellite training stable in Canterbury?

[nomates]

32 minutes ago, Huey said:

I understand that is the premise behind it, but increase interest to the extent they can run ave. $100k races? Seems a bit outlandish to me.

and yet we seem to be heading in the opposite direction.

What i don't understand is how one club racing at this level is going to be good for the whole industry , when the rest are running so far behind in stakes . Is the ARC going to expect a bigger slice of turnovers on their meetings to offset the higher stakes .

If this does come to fruition who in their right mind has a horse in training or a share in one that is racing in the CD or the SI , christ even Pitman will be looking to relocate . 

Yet again they don't see that the industry has to take an holistic approach , no point in NZ racing having a racing club called Winx and the rest R65's .

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

If this does come to fruition who in their right mind has a horse in training or a share in one that is racing in the CD or the SI , christ even Pitman will be looking to relocate . 

 

Pitty is in dreamland thinking that nirvana is going to come to him.

[nomates]

37 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Pitty is in dreamland thinking that nirvana is going to come to him.

It may well become nirvana but , i cannot see how it is sustainable , horse numbers wise along with costs , so nirvana might not be a long term life .

[Huey]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

It may well become nirvana but , i cannot see how it is sustainable , horse numbers wise along with costs , so nirvana might not be a long term life .

Exactly the point I've been trying to make to many, we all know how the pyramid scheme will be kept going via the provinces, give them a hiding from a racing perspective then make the argument they are no longer worth keeping going ... Kachingching!!!

[nomates]

As long as it looks good while their around they don't care , J Allan and TAB website , he thinks he walked away and left a better place , people like him never look back to see the damage they have left behind , better to keep living in their own little " Nirvana " .

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, nomates said:

It may well become nirvana but , i cannot see how it is sustainable , horse numbers wise along with costs , so nirvana might not be a long term life .

Which is what I've been saying from the beginning.  It would be helpful if we could see the business cases that were done that show's nirvana is sustainable.  All I see is the introduction of a much higher cost model of operation without a corresponding uplift in revenue.  Which may possibly be one of the reasons Racing Victoria has limited AWT's racing tracks to two for the entire State.  Strangely we think we are smarter and have three for a population that same size as Melbourne!

[nomates]

Victoria have only enough to ensure that in the middle of winter horses aren't going to miss opertunities because of too much rain , they understand that they aren't expecting them to prop up their industry . And even for an industry their size they don't programme meetings on them to the disadvantage of other courses . 

[Huey]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

Victoria have only enough to ensure that in the middle of winter horses aren't going to miss opertunities because of too much rain , they understand that they aren't expecting them to prop up their industry . And even for an industry their size they don't programme meetings on them to the disadvantage of other courses . 

Yes our AWT are better than the tracks that have sustained the industry for years, well thats what many would have you believe - I fail to understand why.

I've always been an advocate for better planning and better use of existing assets, unfortunately we've never had any decent leadership to enforce this thinking as the parochialism rife in the industry wouldn't allow it .

[Huey]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Which is what I've been saying from the beginning.  It would be helpful if we could see the business cases that were done that show's nirvana is sustainable.  All I see is the introduction of a much higher cost model of operation without a corresponding uplift in revenue.  Which may possibly be one of the reasons Racing Victoria has limited AWT's racing tracks to two for the entire State.  Strangely we think we are smarter and have three for a population that same size as Melbourne!

Yes I'm very suspicious of anything the Australians haven't progressed with, they seem to get a lot right in the way they run their industry. But look out we'll show them with some great kiwi ingenuity and outstanding Australian leadership ... not!

[Freda]

16 hours ago, nomates said:

Victoria have only enough to ensure that in the middle of winter horses aren't going to miss opertunities because of too much rain , they understand that they aren't expecting them to prop up their industry . And even for an industry their size they don't programme meetings on them to the disadvantage of other courses . 

No they don't. 

A huge point of difference.

[Freda]

21 hours ago, nomates said:

What i don't understand is how one club racing at this level is going to be good for the whole industry , when the rest are running so far behind in stakes . Is the ARC going to expect a bigger slice of turnovers on their meetings to offset the higher stakes .

If this does come to fruition who in their right mind has a horse in training or a share in one that is racing in the CD or the SI , christ even Pitman will be looking to relocate . 

Yet again they don't see that the industry has to take an holistic approach , no point in NZ racing having a racing club called Winx and the rest R65's .

And that is another thought apart from the affect new facilities close to the action may have on other areas. 

Funding these races?  The idea is ( as I understand) to provide over-the-top money from the investments made.  All well and good, if these investments remain profitable into the foreseeable future.  But is that good business to pour profits down the sink?   Betting revenues may increase as a result of improved quality of product, but will it be enough?  And, as pointed out above- will there be expectations of additional funding from NZTR?  

Will  - or should- the ARC be subsidizing the rest of NZ racing?

I have heard a comment suggesting some clubs should expect less funding...but that is only hearsay I must point out. 

[Chief Stipe]

29 minutes ago, Freda said:

Will  - or should- the ARC be subsidizing the rest of NZ racing?

Well the rest of NZ Racing has been subsidising them for decades.  Time to reverse the flow?

[Shad]

Interesting revenue and donations given to other various charities, are put into to a national fund, so I guess it's a watch this space.

[Freda]

21 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Well the rest of NZ Racing has been subsidising them for decades.  Time to reverse the flow?

True that.   however, looking back,  it has been shown repeatedly that it is not just the ARC that is being subsidised, but the bigger clubs generally.  It is a no brainer that some sort of funding has to be set aside for the staking of Grp races - esp. as races here in NZ don't return their stakemoney through betting revenue on racing.   They need to drag in all sorts of additional income just to maintain a veneer of profitability.  But the smaller clubs have been squeezed more and more, to the point where, when the volunteers become too old, too tired, or just too dispirited to keep doing what they have done for years, facilities become shabby and rundown;  that combined with poor dates....gone.

So,  if 'the Hill' development falls behind what is envisaged  -  what is left to get squeezed?       And will future committees of the ARC be as keen to devolve their profits into propping up the rest of the industry?

[Chief Stipe]

3 hours ago, Freda said:

facilities become shabby and rundown

But has that mattered?  Facilities haven't been the reason why on-course attendance has declined.  If it was then the likes of Ellerslie, Te Rapa, Awapuni even Riccarton would have had increasing on-course attendance.  They have also declined.

Some clubs by comparison to the big ones have what you would call appalling facilities yet their on-course attendance hasn't declined for some meetings.

I do believe the state of the facilities for the public has been a red herring for a long time especially for clubs when the on-course turnover revenue became less (through manipulation of the funding model) along with the ability to measure it with the advent of smart phone app access.

However what has appalled me for decades is the state of the facilities for those that put on the show.  I've visited many many tracks over the course of my horse ownership.  As I've said before I'm one of those dedicated owners not an absent owner.  I've been pretend strapper more times than I can recall.  What struck me was the state of the facilities for the horses themselves.  

Stable doors barely hanging on one hinge.  Having to use horse leads to tie the stable door.   Bedding that was a dry powder of sawdust that hadn't been changed in 20 years.  Hoses that didn't work or when they did disconnected and sprayed you with water.  Yard water feeders that hadn't been checked or cleaned in years and often didn't work.  Poorly designed yards that were a danger to horse and worker.  What was even more unbelievable was that the major premier tracks were the worst!  No lights and no security.  The best was Ellerslie but only if you were a day tripper certainly not if you were travelling and expected to stay a couple of nights.

Then there are the tracks!

We lost our way the moment we forgot what we were about - horse racing.  That is where we need to return our attention and forget about getting thousands flocking to a race course.  Start from the beginning again.  Quality racing on quality surfaces will attract punters which results in higher stakes leading to higher quality horses being retained leading to increased public interest.  We have had the cart before the horse for too long.

The only thing that differentiates us from the rest of the entertainment and hospitality industry is our racing.  Do we really want to get more into that competitive industry where more businesses go bust each year than we have tracks (or even horses!)?  

What's the bet we will see Cambridge pitching up soon for industry money to build a new stand and restaurant at their AWT?!