Telfor/Butcher team driving

[Guest CrossCodes]

No more obvious tonight than the 30-1 chance Little Suzie drilling the 3-1 chance Platinum the entire race hoping to get the other well backed Telfer runner Ruby Mach the win, glad it didn’t pay off.

They do this every week at Alexandra Park and nothing is ever even asked about it.

If it’s the only way they can get a winner is to drive against the opposition then they need to train their horses better.

 

[Trotsfan]

1 hour ago, CrossCodes said:

No more obvious tonight than the 30-1 chance Little Suzie drilling the 3-1 chance Platinum the entire race hoping to get the other well backed Telfer runner Ruby Mach the win, glad it didn’t pay off.

They do this every week at Alexandra Park and nothing is ever even asked about it.

If it’s the only way they can get a winner is to drive against the opposition then they need to train their horses better.

 

One of the issues with the game being so small up north unfortunately nepotism rules

[the galah]

16 hours ago, CrossCodes said:

No more obvious tonight than the 30-1 chance Little Suzie drilling the 3-1 chance Platinum the entire race hoping to get the other well backed Telfer runner Ruby Mach the win, glad it didn’t pay off.

They do this every week at Alexandra Park and nothing is ever even asked about it.

If it’s the only way they can get a winner is to drive against the opposition then they need to train their horses better.

 

So they asked d butcher about the drive,but he said it got too keen. The stipes in the n.i. accept any excuse anyway. I thought it looked like he was trying to set it up for its stablemate that ran 2nd,to ensure it got off the fence,but who knows.

No mention in the stipes report so far of the d ferguson drive from 3 weeks ago.Its just an example of the stipes giving d ferguson the opportunity to drive at the jewels,and to lessen the consequences of the dishonest drive he had done on classy operator. Whats the point of having stipes if they are going to worry more about how it effects the drivers than it does the punters and public perception. It says it all really?

And i see te louka sunrise trotted all the way in the non win trot,and ran 4th of 7 runners. So the stipes swabbed him. Why pick on him.Why not swab the winner like the rest of the card, apart from bolt for brilliance.

Edited May 28, 2021 by the galah

[Rangatira]

6 hours ago, the galah said:

And i see te louka sunrise trotted all the way in the non win trot,and ran 4th of 7 runners. So the stipes swabbed him. Why pick on him.Why not swab the winner like the rest of the card, apart from bolt for brilliance.

correct all winners should be swabbed and also place getters in the biggest races

by all means swab a few others if they are feeling aroused but always in addition to the above

[Chief Stipe]

41 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

correct all winners should be swabbed and also place getters in the biggest races

I agree all winners should be swabbed.  I didn't realise that this wasn't the case in both codes until recently having assumed for years that it was the case.  I'm sure the policy must have changed at some stage.  As I remember hating having a horse winning the last if it was a shy pee'er!  Sometimes standing there whistling for hours!  

From what I understand now it is a cost issue and works on the basis that those chosen are at random therefore a deterrent.  But that is open to abuse as the "random" part has the potential to be determined.  Plus I'm sure that the last race has a greater frequency of not being chosen!

[Rangatira]

15 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

As I remember hating having a horse winning the last if it was a shy pee'er!  Sometimes standing there whistling for hours! 

what was mcshane like ?

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

what was mcshane like ?

I don't think I had the opportunity to find out.  Long time ago!  But I do remember John (his stable name) had one helluva personality, was a pleasure to drive in training, the stable boss (humans and horses) and the only horse that I've ever considered to be damn near human!  I'm sure if he was in a bad mood and wanted to piss you off he would have held on for hours but he was smart enough to know there was no point hanging around when there was a feed waiting when he got back to the stable!

[Chief Stipe]

Geez Ranga why did you mention McShane!  There are only about 4 horses that I've had anything to do with that I would have given a retirement paddock to for life.  He would have been one of them even though he could be a right grump!  

[Rangatira]

37 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Geez Ranga why did you mention McShane!  There are only about 4 horses that I've had anything to do with that I would have given a retirement paddock to for life.  He would have been one of them even though he could be a right grump!  

christmas holidays in nelson, trips through brightwater on the way to quinneys bush or the reefton trots, equalisator meetings in the new year at richmond

many good hill horses for a young lad to admire and to treat seriously when they ventured to addington

mcshane was just one of them but maybe chosen because he was a canterbury park trotting cup winner and an interdom heat winner (for ray norton) beating the great scotch notch

could have just as easily chosen dunhill, single lord, rustic zephyr, beau du jour or double smooth

 

[Gammalite]

16 hours ago, Rangatira said:

mcshane was just one of them but maybe chosen because he was a canterbury park trotting cup winner and an interdom heat winner (for ray norton) beating the great scotch notch

At Interdominion Auckland 1983 . First round of Trotters heats, McSHANE beating the subsequent Grand Final winner SCOTCH NOTCH (one of the Aussie greats of All Time for the late Graeme Lang) . McSHANE was 8th in the Trotting Grand Final.

Notice the first Pacers Heat in photo, going to speedy Queenlander "WONDAI's MATE" (73 wins from 121 starts) beating the grand NZ Cup winners Bonnie's Chance and Hand's Down. the trainers are Peanut farmers in the bush,  the Reinke's, still bush bash with the odd horse even now , but never had another 'Good' horse . Reinke got tipped out in the Pacers Grand final after winning two heats. What a little ripper the Mate was!!!. Took a NZer to Brisbane once to take him on in the 80's named Frederick (a NZ derby runner and pretty quick) Wondai's Mate kicked his brains in , with Frederick battling 4th, running 1.55 in the 80's . super quick for those days.

[Chief Stipe]

24 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

At Interdominion Auckland 1983 . First round of Trotters heats, McSHANE beating the subsequent Grand Final winner SCOTCH NOTCH (one of the Aussie greats of All Time for the late Graeme Lang) . McSHANE was 8th in the Trotting Grand Final.

Some fantastic trotters in that era.

[Chief Stipe]

16 hours ago, Rangatira said:

could have just as easily chosen dunhill, single lord, rustic zephyr, beau du jour or double smooth

My dad owned Dunhill.  By Lordship out of a Fallacy mare False Chic.  Really good horse but unfortunately started to badly knock a knee.  Stayed at Ted Lowe's once at Hinds.  Ted drove him on his track - said he was the fastest horse that he had timed over a furlong.

In the Double Smooth year there was Dunhill and Crafty Admiral.  McShane was still going as well.  I spent most of my University holidays working in and around the stable. 

The other horse I remember from my childhood was High Chapperal (again owned by my father - raced against the likes of Micron and Trevira and won about 7 races I think), Johnny something else I can't remember, Rostrevor.

Single Lord was out of Single Girl as was McShane.  Single Girl was given to Brian and George Hill by Ted Lowe.  Single Lord was the most gentlest entire I've seen around a stable.  Never forget the day that a very young Kristie was standing underneath him with her arm around his front leg.

But McShane was my favourite.  John had one helluva personality and had amazing sense of racecraft.  If you ever wanted to dispel the animal rights activists assertions that horses don't like racing you would only have to introduce them to John.  One story came from a race at Nelson in which McShane started from a back mark - steadily made his way forward in the 2nd line then for some reason on his own accord he pulled out wide.  A horse further forward on the inside went into a break and disrupted the field and McShane pre-empted the situation.

[Gammalite]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Some fantastic trotters in that era.

Absolute machines that gave it everything. and some not big horses either.

SIR CASTLETON , was 3rd in that Auckland Trotting Grandfinal above, but went to South Australia Interdominion, the following year and Defeated the great Scotch Notch with a brilliant sprint Win. also For NZ and the late master trainer himself, Derek Jones NZMM and his son Peter from Canterbury , the fine trotter TUSSLE ran a great 3rd.  !! TUSSLE went on to get her moment in the Spotlight too. Winning the her 'home' Trot Final at Addington 87 where Cliff Irvine had taken her over. fantastic trotter.

btw. Scotch Notch beat Sir Castleton in her 'Home' Trot Grand Final too at Moonee Valley the year after SA.

making it 2 Quinellas for the 'pocket rockets' after narrowly missing the Akld one. Two quite small trotters that were 2 of the Australasian greats ever .  A wonderful Era .

[Chief Stipe]

17 hours ago, Rangatira said:

christmas holidays in nelson, trips through brightwater on the way to quinneys bush or the reefton trots, equalisator meetings in the new year at richmond

Every year that I can remember as a child we travelled from Hokitika to Nelson for our annual holiday which just happened to coincide with the January races.  I always missed the first week of school as we often had to include the Blenheim races in the trip especially if one of Dad's horses was racing.  Only downside was at High School when getting back to school for the new term everyone else had got all the nice new text books!  Sorted that out one year with my Geography/History teacher and debating coach who loved a good punt!  😉

[Jones]

Just watched a good interview with all 3 Butcher lads about Jewels. Z Butcher says he thinks R9 will be the race of day. D Butcher says Kango will not be unlucky & will be giving it best shot.

Z Butcher adds, Bad to the Bone has proved he can sit parked & stick with them. With those to beat drawn outside him or 2nd line, wants to get handy. (Sounds like he is going to move to parked spot & unlikely to hand once there).

And with not being unlucky, sounds like Kango won’t hand up if he holds front.  

So those to beat will have to come 3 wide at a minimum.

If that happens that would put Pembroke Playboy 3 back rail. Being able to utilise those Camb corners, covering no extra ground & hoping for a gap.

Then we have Green saying in a Lincoln article that Tommy Lincoln has enough speed to cross New York Minute & Kango. That he’s probably their stables best chance on day. Mckendry states, he is hoping they go hard upfront so Copy That can come over the top of them.

Agree with Z Butcher, (for me) this will be the race of the day. Save the best for last.

[the galah]

27 minutes ago, Jones said:

Just watched a good interview with all 3 Butcher lads about Jewels. Z Butcher says he thinks R9 will be the race of day. D Butcher says Kango will not be unlucky & will be giving it best shot.

Z Butcher adds, Bad to the Bone has proved he can sit parked & stick with them. With those to beat drawn outside him or 2nd line, wants to get handy. (Sounds like he is going to move to parked spot & unlikely to hand once there).

And with not being unlucky, sounds like Kango won’t hand up if he holds front.  

So those to beat will have to come 3 wide at a minimum.

If that happens that would put Pembroke Playboy 3 back rail. Being able to utilise those Camb corners, covering no extra ground & hoping for a gap.

Then we have Green saying in a Lincoln article that Tommy Lincoln has enough speed to cross New York Minute & Kango. That he’s probably their stables best chance on day. Mckendry states, he is hoping they go hard upfront so Copy That can come over the top of them.

Agree with Z Butcher, (for me) this will be the race of the day. Save the best for last.

the draws do make that an interesting race. Tommy lincoln could help undo kango if he shows the early speed he normally does.Bad to the bone seemed to lack a sprint the other night,and probably is unable to work hard and win,so unless the leaders get an unexpected easy mid race 400m it may be the race where a horse like south coast arden can come from back of midfield.It may all come down to who ends up in the 3 wide line early on,and whether that horse is good enough to keep going forward.

Edited May 30, 2021 by the galah

[Newmarket]

9 hours ago, Gammalite said:

At Interdominion Auckland 1983 . First round of Trotters heats, McSHANE beating the subsequent Grand Final winner SCOTCH NOTCH (one of the Aussie greats of All Time for the late Graeme Lang) . McSHANE was 8th in the Trotting Grand Final.

Notice the first Pacers Heat in photo, going to speedy Queenlander "WONDAI's MATE" (73 wins from 121 starts) beating the grand NZ Cup winners Bonnie's Chance and Hand's Down. the trainers are Peanut farmers in the bush,  the Reinke's, still bush bash with the odd horse even now , but never had another 'Good' horse . Reinke got tipped out in the Pacers Grand final after winning two heats. What a little ripper the Mate was!!!. Took a NZer to Brisbane once to take him on in the 80's named Frederick (a NZ derby runner and pretty quick) Wondai's Mate kicked his brains in , with Frederick battling 4th, running 1.55 in the 80's . super quick for those days.

Good to see the battling mate Sure Court finishing 3rd, tried her heart out that horse, beat home 3 good ones behind her

[Newmarket]

Just looking at Sure Courts record, had over 3 years off, come back as a 9yo and competed with the best. 
 

Anyone know why the time off, injury or had a foal? 

[Jones]

Well they on a positive note are being very transparent with their plans on Jewels Day which is fab!

They will be heading forward to try to get the lead with Alta Wiseguy. And by the sounds from Nat Pace and Pride doesn't have a heap of gate speed, and she pretty much said she expects Pace N Pride to be in the running line. Therefore he most likely will get there re Alta Wiseguy. Of course BD Joe can come out if room to re take lead. But most likely be the lead/trail Alta Wiseguy/BD Joe or vice versa for 3 y-o boys. Of course anything can happen tho & nothing is certain on race day.

That $5.50 for a place Brods, which is now down to $3 something. Was a great place option. Of course Alta Wiseguy would still have to run a top 3 place for those that got on for that. Upts the chances tho.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Jones

[the galah]

On 29/05/2021 at 10:11 AM, the galah said:

No mention in the stipes report so far of the d ferguson drive from 3 weeks ago.Its just an example of the stipes giving d ferguson the opportunity to drive at the jewels,and to lessen the consequences of the dishonest drive he had done on classy operator. Whats the point of having stipes if they are going to worry more about how it effects the drivers than it does the punters and public perception. It says it all really?

And i see te louka sunrise trotted all the way in the non win trot,and ran 4th of 7 runners. So the stipes swabbed him. Why pick on him.Why not swab the winner like the rest of the card, apart from bolt for brilliance.

So on the 13th of may,6 1/2 weeks ago the stewards opened an inquiry into the D Ferguson case. As i have stated earlier,in my opinion his drive on the night was the most obvious case of team driving seen in recent times.

So what did the stipes do about it. 

Well it appears either they have forgotten all about it,or they have deliberately buried it on the assumption that the mugs who bet on harness racing will forget about it. I would go for the later.

I have seen this on a handful of occasions before. They adjourn a case sine die,never to see the light of day again.

The only way this case will get heard,is if it gets more publicity.

So what conclusions have i come to. Well ferguson got 3 days earlier in the year for seemingly not trying on a hot favorite,so while i have started a positive thread about him on this forum,whenever i see him drive i have doubts,irrespective of his talent.

And the second conclusion is the north island stipes are just useless.

If they are going to hear it,why wait so long???And if they have decided not to proceed,then why has there been no mention in their reports since. Well i know the answer if it is the suspected later. Its because they know it was a dishonest drive,and that by not taking action they would be seen as condoning dishonesty.  That of course makes the stipes way more dishonest than ferguson.

[eljay]

I think you have to ask the boss not the stipes.    The boss incidentally comes from the south (lol).    I say this simply because the stipes are not responsible for letting the public know what has or was or is happening,   Just a column in their web site stating outstanding cases and when they scheduled for hearing would be better than silence.     

Regarding Dylan's case, I hear that it has actually been held and outcome should be known soon (well hopefully soon) after next Wednesday when Prosecution and Defence submissions re penalty are due.     I also understand that the original charge was amended by the stipes to a lesser charge.

[the galah]

3 minutes ago, eljay said:

I think you have to ask the boss not the stipes.    The boss incidentally comes from the south (lol).    I say this simply because the stipes are not responsible for letting the public know what has or was or is happening,   Just a column in their web site stating outstanding cases and when they scheduled for hearing would be better than silence.     

Regarding Dylan's case, I hear that it has actually been held and outcome should be known soon (well hopefully soon) after next Wednesday when Prosecution and Defence submissions re penalty are due.     I also understand that the original charge was amended by the stipes to a lesser charge.

Thanks for that.Good to hear the stipes have followed through. Your suggestion re how they could keep the public informed is a good one. Transparency is a must.As i have pointed out,there have been cases in the past which have been  adjourned sine die,with no public notification of the result. So how is anyone to know this wasn't going to be the same.

[the galah]

I have just read the decision of the jca on their website. They found D ferguson not guilty of improper driving but guilty of careless driving. Apparently they found he had no intent to steer his horse wide prior to the passing lane ,and it was just coincidence that his stablemate got a run when he ran wide. I think thats a brief summary of the decision.

My take on that is the stipes did do their job,but the jca simply can't tell team driving when it is right there in front of them .The moral of the story is a precedent has been set,so don't expect team driving to be punished given the jca aren't up to the job. Anyone who has doubts should just go watch the video again. It appears he hasn't as yet been given his penalty for the careless driving.

Edited July 5, 2021 by the galah

[Gammalite]

50 minutes ago, the galah said:

I have just read the decision of the jca on their website. They found D ferguson not guilty of improper driving but guilty of careless driving. Apparently they found he had no intent to steer his horse wide prior to the passing lane ,and it was just coincidence that his stablemate got a run when he ran wide. I think thats a brief summary of the decision.

My take on that is the stipes did do their job,but the jca simply can't tell team driving when it is right there in front of them .The moral of the story is a precedent has been set,so don't expect team driving to be punished given the jca aren't up to the job. Anyone who has doubts should just go watch the video again. It appears he hasn't as yet been given his penalty for the careless driving.

Think you on the money there Galah. the stewards seem reluctant to take action against the star players.

Think a lot of team driving whether Telfer or Allstars , Dunn or other has been highlighted on BOAY . If we can see it , you would think stewards would hahahaha ... I think if it (team driving) doesn't decrease your drives chance of winning, it is fine but obviously the case you high-lighted with D Ferguson letting Serrento win was a VERY dubious one indeed. his horse was butchered.

Grant Dixons wife Trista got a YEAR DQ, !!! for moving to one side to let hubby Grant win on Our Overanover once. You can't muck around with these things. rub them out . or more will copy and you don't want that.