saginaw

[the galah]

How long does r cameron get for his strange tactical move at the 200m in race 7 last night.From watching him drive in the past,you would assume he was trying,but what was he thinking?I would guess 2 months,but who knows.

On the postive side,as others have pointed out,you had to admire john dunns driving.

Edited September 3, 2021 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

How long does r cameron get for his strange tactical move at the 200m in race 7 last night.From watching him drive in the past,you would assume he was trying,but what was he thinking?I would guess 2 months,but who knows.

On the postive side,as others have pointed out,you had to admire john dunns driving.

Why oh why did you pick a race and a horse that I followed!!!!

I disagree with your assessment - surprise, surprise!  He was constantly tapping the horse to keep up from midway down the back straight, around the bend and in the home straight.  On the bend he wasn't going good enough to move out a width and was being tapped up.  It looked like the driver pulled the right reign in the straight but the horse ducked in.  Where can you look at the Stewards video?

If he had been a Jockey he would have got done for excessive whipping!

[JTeaz]

3 months minimum

[the galah]

4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Why oh why did you pick a race and a horse that I followed!!!!

I disagree with your assessment - surprise, surprise!  He was constantly tapping the horse to keep up from midway down the back straight, around the bend and in the home straight.  On the bend he wasn't going good enough to move out a width and was being tapped up.  It looked like the driver pulled the right reign in the straight but the horse ducked in.  Where can you look at the Stewards video?

If he had been a Jockey he would have got done for excessive whipping!

You deserved a better result if you had that one.

Can't understand why you are trying to justify such a "dumb as" tactical move? Who angles in to a non existent gap,when you can just ease outwards because there is no one outside you. When a horses head is turned inwards after it has been running straight,as ocurred,i believe that means its being steered inwards.Thats the explanation why it went in,and not out. He's never had a problem pulling it out before.

[the galah]

22 minutes ago, JTeaz said:

3 months minimum

The drive looked like it deserved that long,but having said that  i think it was just extremely poor judgment.  So maybe they will give him what they gave d ferguson at cambridge earlier in the year,for a more questionable drive on that trotter. 3 days is all he got,which seemed ridiculously lenient at the time..

The thing is anyone watching that race who may have backed saginaw would be thinking that fella is dodgy. So there has to be a penalty which maintains the betting publics faith.

Edited September 3, 2021 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

22 minutes ago, the galah said:

You deserved a better result if you had that one.

Can't understand why you are trying to justify such a "dumb as" tactical move? Who angles in to a non existent gap,when you can just ease outwards because there is no one outside you. When a horses head is turned inwards after it has been running straight,as ocurred,i believe that means its being steered inwards.Thats the explanation why it went in,and not out. He's never had a problem pulling it out before.

He should have moved out on the turn but why couldn't the horse keep up with being tapped up?

[Chief Stipe]

24 minutes ago, JTeaz said:

3 months minimum

What would be your justification for that?  I'm not asking for a 10 thousand word judgment which seems to be the norm with the RIB now but some reasoning instead of "throw the book at him and give him 3 months minimum".

Look closely at the race again.  He was being tapped up from the 650m to keep his position.  The driver pulled the ear plugs at the top of the straight, pulling the right reign at the same time and the horse ducked in at the same time as Superbass in front went a width wider.  I doubt R Cameron actually steered in that direction.

He should have pulled out, balanced the horse BEFORE he pulled the plugs.

"Mr Steward, Sir, my horse was struggling to keep up from the 650 and I needed to keep tapping him with the whip to stay on the back of the horse I was trailing.  He wasn't travelling well enough to pull out before the home straight.  Upon straightening I pulled the ear plugs and the right reign and the horse reacted by moving in at the same time as the tiring Superbass moved out closing the gap.  My horse appeared to come back onto the bit in the concluding stages but that was more a case of not being able to pass tiring horses in front of us."

[Gammalite]

44 minutes ago, the galah said:

The drive looked like it deserved that long,but having said that  i think it was just extremely poor judgment

Very poor decision to go inside the death horse , when had ample time to pull outside just as they turned for home (or before if he wanted) 

Tis a shame , as Cameron drove SAGINAW brilliantly early part of race to get one-one sit from awkward alley. 

Three months for steering inside another runner instead of outside it ?? harsh , harsh harsh.

What about the LAST race won by FireFox .Race 12.    3rd and 5th, G Thornley and John Dunn, Asian Elvis and Ned Kelly.  looked to me both travelling well enough at quarter. (middle half was 61.2 seconds) Driver O'Reilly put himself into race with Life of Art and ran 4th with a great  'Attempt to WIN' drive. 

Meanwhile John and Gemma both refused to make a move until home straight , from 4 and 5 back running line ?

STILL 8th and 9th 150m out even. No way they gave horses best chance of winning ???? Thoughts ??

bring back Natalie my main thought lol...... wouldn't see her driving uncompetitive like that! lol........

[the galah]

39 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

 

What about the LAST race won by FireFox .Race 12.    3rd and 5th, G Thornley and John Dunn, Asian Elvis and Ned Kelly.  looked to me both travelling well enough at quarter. (middle half was 61.2 seconds) Driver O'Reilly put himself into race with Life of Art and ran 4th with a great  'Attempt to WIN' drive. 

Meanwhile John and Gemma both refused to make a move until home straight , from 4 and 5 back running line ?

STILL 8th and 9th 150m out even. No way they gave horses best chance of winning ???? Thoughts ??

bring back Natalie my main thought lol...... wouldn't see her driving uncompetitive like that! lol........

John dunn did leave his run a bit late,but  Ned kelly was having its first race for 8 months,and is a horse who lacks a bit of confidence and has been a bit wayward in the past.So probably he drove it as you would expect pre race. It surprised me how it was 2nd favorite,but it did run well. Asian elvis finished well too,but you don't see g thornley making many mid race moves,so pretty much as expected there as well.

Edited September 4, 2021 by the galah

[JTeaz]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

What would be your justification for that?  I'm not asking for a 10 thousand word judgment which seems to be the norm with the RIB now but some reasoning instead of "throw the book at him and give him 3 months minimum".

Look closely at the race again.  He was being tapped up from the 650m to keep his position.  The driver pulled the ear plugs at the top of the straight, pulling the right reign at the same time and the horse ducked in at the same time as Superbass in front went a width wider.  I doubt R Cameron actually steered in that direction.

He should have pulled out, balanced the horse BEFORE he pulled the plugs.

"Mr Steward, Sir, my horse was struggling to keep up from the 650 and I needed to keep tapping him with the whip to stay on the back of the horse I was trailing.  He wasn't travelling well enough to pull out before the home straight.  Upon straightening I pulled the ear plugs and the right reign and the horse reacted by moving in at the same time as the tiring Superbass moved out closing the gap.  My horse appeared to come back onto the bit in the concluding stages but that was more a case of not being able to pass tiring horses in front of us."

With his lack of drives he will get longer..If he had 6 drives a night he would get 3 weeks..6 drives a month tops... he will get 3 months at least. It was a terrible lack of judgment.

[Chief Stipe]

53 minutes ago, JTeaz said:

With his lack of drives he will get longer..If he had 6 drives a night he would get 3 weeks..6 drives a month tops... he will get 3 months at least. It was a terrible lack of judgment.

You haven't given any explanation why he should get 3 months or 6 months.

So he made an error of judgment (in my opinion there are mitigating circumstances) to not take the chance to move to the outside at the 200m (that is what is in the Stipes report).  In my opinion he should have moved earlier.  Why didn't he?  The horse wasn't going well enough and was being tapped up to keep on the back of the horse in front of it.  If he did go then he would have had to start using the persuader with much more vigour a long way from home.  The rules don't give you much latitude to do that anymore.

The opportunity at the 200m was a split second and occurred at the same time as he pulled the ear plugs.

Hell if he had pushed out another horse and it broke he wouldn't have got 6 months!  

[Unhinged]

1 hour ago, JTeaz said:

With his lack of drives he will get longer..If he had 6 drives a night he would get 3 weeks..6 drives a month tops... he will get 3 months at least. It was a terrible lack of judgment.

I'm not going to go into details until the case has been heard, but I can tell you there is alot more to that drive thats meets the eye. The horse has had and still has a few issues,  replay a few of his previous race's and watch his actions. Pays not to judge someone like Ross until you know the background,  personally I would be very disappointed if he received any sort of penalty. 

[the galah]

14 minutes ago, Unhinged said:

I'm not going to go into details until the case has been heard, but I can tell you there is alot more to that drive thats meets the eye. The horse has had and still has a few issues,  replay a few of his previous race's and watch his actions. Pays not to judge someone like Ross until you know the background,  personally I would be very disappointed if he received any sort of penalty. 

Well most on here have watched all his races.As to not receiving a penalty,more chance of pigs flying than that happening.

[Chief Stipe]

13 minutes ago, the galah said:

Well most on here have watched all his races.As to not receiving a penalty,more chance of pigs flying than that happening.

Are you psychic @the galah?  How do you know or don't know what issues the horse has?  Been a long time since I worked with Harness horses but I can see a few things he does wrong.  He does at times become intractable and also runs out of his gear from time to time on the verge of breaking.  

[Karrotsisback]

Ok, just watched this race. When watched race today actually had eyes only on Sugar Me 😍 & the Telfer runner, shame it seemed to over-race on parked spot. 

Anyway back to topic. Hmm from an objective point from only watching this race, no idea how the horse runs usually or its past history, just basing it on what I see.

Like, YIKES. Oh dear. 

[Karrotsisback]

51 minutes ago, Unhinged said:

I'm not going to go into details until the case has been heard, but I can tell you there is alot more to that drive thats meets the eye. The horse has had and still has a few issues,  replay a few of his previous race's and watch his actions. 

Hey Unhinged, not coming at you, just so I can make more of an informed judgement re his previous starts you refer to. Could you guide me to which races you mean, started to watch his race prior last nite but got bored watching 1/2 way thru. Much easier if you could just advise 😄 

[Unhinged]

Just now, Karrotsisback said:

Hey Unhinged, not coming at you, just so I can make more of an informed judgement re his previous starts you refer to. Could you guide me to which races you mean, started to watch his race prior last nite but got bored watching 1/2 way thru. Much easier if you could just advise 😄 

Probably unfair of me to just say watch his previous starts, the horse has alot of issues they have ironed out one in having a bone chip removed but there is another issue which makes him a very hard drive , Ross and his farrier have been working on him for a while now . I'm not going to go any further until his case is done with but he's one horse I wouldn't judge Ross's driving ability on.

[Karrotsisback]

12 minutes ago, Unhinged said:

Probably unfair of me to just say watch his previous starts, the horse has alot of issues they have ironed out one in having a bone chip removed but there is another issue which makes him a very hard drive , Ross and his farrier have been working on him for a while now . I'm not going to go any further until his case is done with but he's one horse I wouldn't judge Ross's driving ability on.

Ok so basically think what you are saying in code is,

The driver chose not to move out when in the straight as he felt the horse at that time, may break up or race unwillingly.

Roger that.

Ok after hearing that side too, Im incline to think the stripes will still give him time or fine. No idea how much. (But Im not an expert in this type of thing). Just can't really see them not being able too, unless he pre-warned them & to pre-warn punters. Maybe moving forward if hasn’t already to do so. Could be a good idea.

So yeah lets wait & see.

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Are you psychic @the galah?  How do you know or don't know what issues the horse has?  Been a long time since I worked with Harness horses but I can see a few things he does wrong.  He does at times become intractable and also runs out of his gear from time to time on the verge of breaking.  

So are you psychic chief? Perhaps you could explain to the uneducated what issues the horse had that resulted in the driver steering into a dead end.Don't give me the" it was intractible in the early part of its racing career'.What on earth has that got to do with last nights drive.

And how about this. Go watch the horses most recent runs before you comment on whether it has had issues when being steered outwards.Whats the point in making excuses when they don't exist. 

Races are run and people comment on what happens in them.Thats all this thread is about.I don't know cameron from a bar of soap. Good luck to him in the future,but if people comment only on the good things,then your not telling the whole story.

[Robalan]

I agree with you Chief, from what I could see the horse wasn't travelling that well so rather than pull out and get stuck into the horse with his whip, he kept him on the back of horses that were travelling well hoping to get a late gap. the gap never came but in my opinion the horse finished closer than he would have if he'd tried to go down the outside

[Chief Stipe]

7 minutes ago, Robalan said:

I agree with you Chief, from what I could see the horse wasn't travelling that well so rather than pull out and get stuck into the horse with his whip, he kept him on the back of horses that were travelling well hoping to get a late gap. the gap never came but in my opinion the horse finished closer than he would have if he'd tried to go down the outside

I reckon he hits his outside knee too.  

[the galah]

48 minutes ago, Robalan said:

I agree with you Chief, from what I could see the horse wasn't travelling that well so rather than pull out and get stuck into the horse with his whip, he kept him on the back of horses that were travelling well hoping to get a late gap. the gap never came but in my opinion the horse finished closer than he would have if he'd tried to go down the outside

The gap never came. Hoped to get a late gap. Horse finished closer than he would have.  Good stuff. 

[Chief Stipe]

28 minutes ago, the galah said:

The gap never came. Hoped to get a late gap. Horse finished closer than he would have.  Good stuff. 

As opposed to.......

"He should have gone to the outside at the 200m and would have finished......"  Where exactly?

Na just throw the book at him and put him out for a quarter of the year.....nup up that make it half the year.

When was the last time YOU sat in a sulky @the galah as opposed to spending a lazy Saturday morning reviewing the Stipes reports and then the race replays?

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

Don't give me the" it was intractible in the early part of its racing career'

Didn't say that.  I reviewed some of his recent races and observed issues which clearly you haven't.  I saw issues in last nights run and mentioned those. You didn't appear to notice in your analysis that he was the only horse being tapped up from the 600m to keep his position.  Was that because it wasn't mentioned in the Stipes report?

2 hours ago, the galah said:

Races are run and people comment on what happens in them.Thats all this thread is about.I don't know cameron from a bar of soap. Good luck to him in the future,but if people comment only on the good things,then your not telling the whole story.

WTF on you on about in this paragraph?

2 hours ago, the galah said:

And how about this. Go watch the horses most recent runs before you comment on whether it has had issues when being steered outwards.Whats the point in making excuses when they don't exist. 

You are the one that jumped up and down and started the Topic with "How long does R Cameron get (off) for his drive..."  FFS you even contemplated that was there a possibility that he took, in your opinion, the wrong option because of some financial gain.

I watched the race last night live and reviewed it as soon as I could last night and came to a different conclusion to you as I could see reasons for what happened.  That's my opinion and I gather from @Unhinged's comments that the horse has issues that we are not aware of.

But no doubt he'll get a holiday and the 10,000 word dissertation from the RIB after getting the betting analyst to look into betting patterns will talk about upholding standards and maintaining integrity in the eyes of the betting public blah blah.  All from a position of having SFA knowledge of driving a harness horse just like most of the betting public.

[Big Bang]

It's quite simple.

The rule Ross is being charged with is failing to take all reasonable and permissible measures to finish in the highest possible position. 

Whether it was an error in judgement or an issue with the horse. It looked bad, especially with so much room to come out at the top of the straight. 

Jason is right. The punishment will look significant considering that Ross drives very little. 

He's done an excellent job with that horse. He was a rogue, but the recent performances have been excellent. 

Will be interested to see how he goes tomorrow.