timaru amateur race

[the galah]

So they have charged c negus for her drive today,because she attempted to take the front for too long.Negus made a sustained attempt for the lead,but her horse was just too one paced to get there,and eventually faded out.

Now anyone who has watched this horse race knows its best chance is if it ends up in a race where there is a constant fast pace,and even then most wouldn't expect it to win. If you go back to the last time it won,it was driven very similar to today,with the main difference being it kept going the day it won,whereas today it always looked to be laboring. 

So to sum up,she tried to drive the horse to its strengths, but it simply never looked up to running in the money today. So what's wrong with that.

You've got to ask the question. Is Negus being an amateur part of the reason she's been charged. If so then that is not fair.

Also,while its obvious negus's tactics didn't work and she looked a bit silly,why not charge others who make poor tactical decisions.

For example I watched a couple today.. In race 4 robbie holmes driving miss markle elected not to improve at the 500m when well placed to do so,extinguising its chances. And in the next race you had Gavin smith happy to sit 3 back the fence on shifty ,following the outsider,when he would have known that was a poor tactical move.And then you had the brad williamson drive on tetrick at wyndham on thursday. His pointless attack for the lead was a far poorer tactical drive than negus's,and significantly contributed to tetrick running 200m last,yet there was no thought of charging him.

So the point is why penalise a driver who's trying her best,and why pick on that drive when other more prominent drivers make just as poor,if not worse,tactical decisions in races?

Edited October 3, 2021 by the galah

[Ludwig]

Good points. From my perspective I tend to steer well clear of the amateur races. The level of skill varies greatly, and I do wonder about the overall mentoring and monitoring of standards in this group.

[Nowornever]

16 hours ago, the galah said:

So they have charged c negus for her drive today,because she attempted to take the front for too long.Negus made a sustained attempt for the lead,but her horse was just too one paced to get there,and eventually faded out.

Now anyone who has watched this horse race knows its best chance is if it ends up in a race where there is a constant fast pace,and even then most wouldn't expect it to win. If you go back to the last time it won,it was driven very similar to today,with the main difference being it kept going the day it won,whereas today it always looked to be laboring. 

So to sum up,she tried to drive the horse to its strengths, but it simply never looked up to running in the money today. So what's wrong with that.

You've got to ask the question. Is Negus being an amateur part of the reason she's been charged. If so then that is not fair.

Also,while its obvious negus's tactics didn't work and she looked a bit silly,why not charge others who make poor tactical decisions.

For example I watched a couple today.. In race 4 robbie holmes driving miss markle elected not to improve at the 500m when well placed to do so,extinguising its chances. And in the next race you had Gavin smith happy to sit 3 back the fence on shifty ,following the outsider,when he would have known that was a poor tactical move.And then you had the brad williamson drive on tetrick at wyndham on thursday. His pointless attack for the lead was a far poorer tactical drive than negus's,and significantly contributed to tetrick running 200m last,yet there was no thought of charging him.

So the point is why penalise a driver who's trying her best,and why pick on that drive when other more prominent drivers make just as poor,if not worse,tactical decisions in races?

I agree with all your points here. The Robbie Holmes drive on Miss Markle was like they didn't want to win or that horse only has a 50 metre sprint. The day it firms in on the betting market instead of drifting like it had already lost, that is the day they put it in the race.

The questions stipes put to the drivers and the excuses given are ridiculous sometimes.  As to the stipes being taken for a ride by drivers, one of the funniest ones I ever saw was Dexter getting beaten on Master Moonlight paying $1.20 to win on fixed odds in 2017. 

MASTER MOONLITE - held up final bend. Driver D Dunn was questioned regarding the tactics he adopted passing the 1100 metres when electing not to improve his position outwards. Mr Dunn explained that he was reluctant to improve three wide without cover as he felt at this stage of the horse's career it was not best suited to racing wide and without cover over such a considerable distance.  After considering his explanation, Stewards were satisfied the tactics adopted were not unreasonable and no further action was deemed necessary.

Now this might seem like a logical excuse until you see how the horse won on it's previous start. I kid you not. The previous start the horse was improved three wide without cover and parked from the 1000m winning easily in a much faster mile rate on a slower track. I emailed the stipes at the time asking for answers about Dexters explanation and his tactics on the horses previous race but never received a reply.

 It looked pretty black and white to me.  Check out the two races in question and see for yourselves.

 

 

[Honestjohn]

17 hours ago, Ludwig said:

Good points. From my perspective I tend to steer well clear of the amateur races. The level of skill varies greatly, and I do wonder about the overall mentoring and monitoring of standards in this group.

 

Exactly, that’s why I don’t bet on them, bunch of clowns,  save money for the dead cert.

 

cheers

[Ludwig]

2 hours ago, Nowornever said:

I agree with all your points here. The Robbie Holmes drive on Miss Markle was like they didn't want to win or that horse only has a 50 metre sprint. The day it firms in on the betting market instead of drifting like it had already lost, that is the day they put it in the race.

The questions stipes put to the drivers and the excuses given are ridiculous sometimes.  As to the stipes being taken for a ride by drivers, one of the funniest ones I ever saw was Dexter getting beaten on Master Moonlight paying $1.20 to win on fixed odds in 2017. 

MASTER MOONLITE - held up final bend. Driver D Dunn was questioned regarding the tactics he adopted passing the 1100 metres when electing not to improve his position outwards. Mr Dunn explained that he was reluctant to improve three wide without cover as he felt at this stage of the horse's career it was not best suited to racing wide and without cover over such a considerable distance.  After considering his explanation, Stewards were satisfied the tactics adopted were not unreasonable and no further action was deemed necessary.

Now this might seem like a logical excuse until you see how the horse won on it's previous start. I kid you not. The previous start the horse was improved three wide without cover and parked from the 1000m winning easily in a much faster mile rate on a slower track. I emailed the stipes at the time asking for answers about Dexters explanation and his tactics on the horses previous race but never received a reply.

 It looked pretty black and white to me.  Check out the two races in question and see for yourselves.

 

 

I'm sure you're not the only one to raise the subject of how DD got away with things, particularly in Otago/Southland, that others couldn't . Fine driver and all, but I sometimes  wondered how brave a steward would be to ping him for some of his drives.

[Karrotsisback]

38 minutes ago, Honestjohn said:

Exactly, that’s why I don’t bet on them, bunch of clowns,  save money for the dead cert.

Your so funny Honest J lol, 

Thing I find strange is the ones I know of re Fitzgerald an occasional poster on here & 1 in the North Phelan who is a starter in North, are like #ontoit in their professions, yet they make up the amateur ranks, so if we go on with the same, others then who do well or are also #ontoit in their usual professions, yet come race day in amateurs & its like they left their brain at home. 

Now I am 1 to give out compliments & rarely do put downs of trainers/drivers, BUT don't get it re often with these amateur races the style they persist.

Just watched race replay as did not watch this race, as its been brought up & Fitzgerald whom is an occasional poster on here is the driver on the leader. Maybe he could come and explain himself on here ... ? He isn't a super regular reader just occasional. 

Question - why not hand lead up when she kept attacking - to take trail? Were you under instructions not to?

Edited October 4, 2021 by Karrotsisback

[Robalan]

I think he wanted to, he restrained his horse to take a trail but the other horse wouldn't or couldn't get to the lead

[Karrotsisback]

28 minutes ago, Robalan said:

I think he wanted to, he restrained his horse to take a trail but the other horse wouldn't or couldn't get to the lead

Yeah maybe aye. You might be right. Don’t know for sure hence put the question out there to hopefully get the fact.

Looked a bit like maybe initially, then changed mind soon after when challenger couldn’t take lead & even commentator states “The Naenae Express not happy to hand”. Then Fitzgerald starts to nod his head meaning no, however the challenger continues on with it.

By the time they hit the post with a lap to go, they have been dualing (kamikazi driving) for far TOO long & BOTH horses are now stuffed.

Both horses drop out.

[Robalan]

I'm not a fan of Fitzgerald either. I was surprised when he wasn't questioned about his drive

[the galah]

The thing that will make a horse stop is if they are driven at an inconsistent or excessive speed.But this didn't happen in the race in question. Fitzgerald maintained a constant speed,and negus did as well,the difference being negus's horse was outside its comfort zone because it was not up to it on the day,and thats why it finished at the back of the field. You have to ask,where would negus have finished had she given up her quest for the lead much earlier. And the answer would still be she would not have placed.  To say she failed to give her horse the best opportunity,as she has been charged, is simply inaccurate. 

It was a horse race. not tiddlywinks. They were both doing what they thought best. Fitzgerald didn't want to trail a horse that would stop on him,and negus knew her best chance was to maintain a constant speed. As unusual aa negus's drive was, It was not the drives which stopped either horse placing,it was they just weren't up to it on the day,and they both pretty much ran up to their recent form.

Heres another thing the stipendiary report failed to note. Why was there no mention of the race not starting at its correct start point? Isn't it obvious from the video that the mobile goes almost 50 metres beyond the start point before it lets them go. Shouldn't that get a mention.

My main take on the racing at timaru was the consistency of performance of our top drivers. The likes of Orange,dunn and williams still perform at their very best on the run of the mill racing days. It doesn't matter to them where or when,they are out there to win.

[Karrotsisback]

12 minutes ago, the galah said:

Fitzgerald didn't want to trail a horse that would stop on him

Dunno maybe, speculation, Hopefully Fitzgerald gives us his facts. Earth calling Fitzgerald, come in Fitzgerald.

12 minutes ago, the galah said:

Heres another thing the stipendiary report failed to note. Why was there no mention of the race not starting at its correct start point? Isn't it obvious from the video that the mobile goes almost 50 metres beyond the start point before it lets them go. Shouldn't that get a mention.

Far you don't miss a beat there do you Galah lol. Love it 👍😃

Edited October 4, 2021 by Karrotsisback

[JTeaz]

I wonder if charges will be laid against the other soeed dualling driver for abusing the female horsewoman attacking.. Not a good look these days to be abusing woman. I am surprised this hasn't been brought up by the stipes.

[AndrewFitzgerald]

2 hours ago, Robalan said:

I think he wanted to, he restrained his horse to take a trail but the other horse wouldn't or couldn't get to the lead

No i never wanted to hand up. I'd come out the gate and not handed to two x front running drivers in Alan Edge and Gavin Cook. Both well known for likely to lead up.

I made my intentions clear that i was staying in front, whip up, horse strong on the bit. I was attacked and again made it clear the front wasn't there. The outside horse has persisted with it's attack. After a while i was happy to have that horse sit a bit in front of me by half a length as i was strong on the bit and still trying to dictate the pace as much as i could from the position i was in. If i had kicked up inside then id think it could have easily turned into a speed duel.

My horse had gone a good run the last time in amateur grade when able to find the front and bowl along, this was his first good barrier draw in 8 starts for us and we were keen to use it.

19 minutes ago, JTeaz said:

I wonder if charges will be laid against the other soeed dualling driver for abusing the female horsewoman attacking.. Not a good look these days to be abusing woman. I am surprised this hasn't been brought up by the stipes.

Don't be starting lies Mr Teaz, there was no abuse from any driver towards any female horsewoman. An official made mention of this to the stipes, but the female horsewomen you speak about did not agree with that official's view of it. The stipes brought this up with both the female horsewomen and all other drivers and there no action taken or needed.

Hope that helps you with the facts before you continue along your path.

Edited October 4, 2021 by AndrewFitzgerald

[AndrewFitzgerald]

3 hours ago, Karrotsisback said:

Your so funny Honest J lol, 

Thing I find strange is the ones I know of re Fitzgerald an occasional poster on here & 1 in the North Phelan who is a starter in North, are like #ontoit in their professions, yet they make up the amateur ranks, so if we go on with the same, others then who do well or are also #ontoit in their usual professions, yet come race day in amateurs & its like they left their brain at home. 

Now I am 1 to give out compliments & rarely do put downs of trainers/drivers, BUT don't get it re often with these amateur races the style they persist.

Just watched race replay as did not watch this race, as its been brought up & Fitzgerald whom is an occasional poster on here is the driver on the leader. Maybe he could come and explain himself on here ... ? He isn't a super regular reader just occasional. 

Question - why not hand lead up when she kept attacking - to take trail? Were you under instructions not to?

I was happy to take my place in the amateur ranks as a way to keep my hand in with driving horses, which is something i enjoy while obviously not working full time in a stables or driving full time.

The amateur racing has improved significantly in the last 5 years from what it used to be, you've seen the addition of a number of drivers who have been relatively successful as juniors or open drivers and a lot cleaner racing.

Turnover, Field Numbers, Starts per horse per season in amateur racing is still up on a large number of the other races held in the country. While racing for less money. So it is actually providing a better return on the money then a significant amount of racing in NZ. Not only that, but the horses involved are almost always the same horses and either owned and trained by the drivers or someone they're closely associated with. A decent amount of horses and benefit to the industry.

All drivers will tell you that race wasn't a great look, but things like these are happening alot less often then 5 years ago in the amateur ranks, drivers are dealt with the same as open class drivers.

amateur ranks growing with additions such as Ben Laughton who was successful in junior career but now working outside of the industry. It provides a platform for him to remain in the industry instead of being lost for ever like has been the case for probably hundreds of people over the last 20 years.

[Karrotsisback]

7 minutes ago, AndrewFitzgerald said:

I was happy to take my place in the amateur ranks as a way to keep my hand in with driving horses, which is something i enjoy while obviously not working full time in a stables or driving full time.

The amateur racing has improved significantly in the last 5 years from what it used to be, you've seen the addition of a number of drivers who have been relatively successful as juniors or open drivers and a lot cleaner racing.

Turnover, Field Numbers, Starts per horse per season in amateur racing is still up on a large number of the other races held in the country. While racing for less money. So it is actually providing a better return on the money then a significant amount of racing in NZ. Not only that, but the horses involved are almost always the same horses and either owned and trained by the drivers or someone they're closely associated with. A decent amount of horses and benefit to the industry.

All drivers will tell you that race wasn't a great look, but things like these are happening alot less often then 5 years ago in the amateur ranks, drivers are dealt with the same as open class drivers.

amateur ranks growing with additions such as Ben Laughton who was successful in junior career but now working outside of the industry. It provides a platform for him to remain in the industry instead of being lost for ever like has been the case for probably hundreds of people over the last 20 years.

Hey Fitzgerald,

Thanks for your response and getting FACTS out there. 

Im a bit drained atm from a very small minority of posters that I find currently very NEGATIVE & DRAINING. Guess you must get a bit DRAINED too with negative vibes going your way. So gunna log out for day/nite now. Might reply proper to you tomorrow. 

Cheers

[JTeaz]

45 minutes ago, AndrewFitzgerald said:

No i never wanted to hand up. I'd come out the gate and not handed to two x front running drivers in Alan Edge and Gavin Cook. Both well known for likely to lead up.

I made my intentions clear that i was staying in front, whip up, horse strong on the bit. I was attacked and again made it clear the front wasn't there. The outside horse has persisted with it's attack. After a while i was happy to have that horse sit a bit in front of me by half a length as i was strong on the bit and still trying to dictate the pace as much as i could from the position i was in. If i had kicked up inside then id think it could have easily turned into a speed duel.

My horse had gone a good run the last time in amateur grade when able to find the front and bowl along, this was his first good barrier draw in 8 starts for us and we were keen to use it.

Don't be starting lies Mr Teaz, there was no abuse from any driver towards any female horsewoman. An official made mention of this to the stipes, but the female horsewomen you speak about did not agree with that official's view of it. The stipes brought this up with both the female horsewomen and all other drivers and there no action taken or needed.

Hope that helps you with the facts before you continue along your path.

Im glad to hear that the information doing the rounds was blown out of proportion.

[Nowornever]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

The thing that will make a horse stop is if they are driven at an inconsistent or excessive speed.But this didn't happen in the race in question. Fitzgerald maintained a constant speed,and negus did as well,the difference being negus's horse was outside its comfort zone because it was not up to it on the day,and thats why it finished at the back of the field. You have to ask,where would negus have finished had she given up her quest for the lead much earlier. And the answer would still be she would not have placed.  To say she failed to give her horse the best opportunity,as she has been charged, is simply inaccurate. 

Perfect summation right there! 

[Nowornever]

1 hour ago, AndrewFitzgerald said:

After a while i was happy to have that horse sit a bit in front of me by half a length

Yeh I think that's where you went wrong mate!  In her mind you gave her half a chance to think she had the front so she had to keep pushing for it then! 

[AndrewFitzgerald]

7 minutes ago, Nowornever said:

Yeh I think that's where you went wrong mate!  In her mind you gave her half a chance to think she had the front so she had to keep pushing for it then! 

Could be. Although I did tell her that front wasn't there when she first came, and also for the next mile and she still never took hold of her runner. Either way, wasn't a great look and not what we want in the amateur races as we're trying to improve them, which they had been.

Edited October 4, 2021 by AndrewFitzgerald
spelling

[the galah]

1 hour ago, AndrewFitzgerald said:

 Either way, wasn't a great look and not what we want in the amateur races as we're trying to improve them, which they had been.

This "not a great look" is an exaggeration of what happened.Obviously amateurs take pride in how they perform,as do all drivers,so maybe you are your own harshest judges.

Reality is people enjoy seeing something different. Thats what gets us talking,this topic being an example of that. 

Besides ,best to analyse the sectionals.That will come up when they deal with whether there is any merit in negus being charged. If the pace was consistent and not out of the ordinary excessive,then that isn't a speed duel.

[Gammalite]

49 minutes ago, the galah said:

This "not a great look" is an exaggeration of what happened.Obviously amateurs take pride in how they perform,as do all drivers,

Totally ! pretty 'one-paced' horse that unfortunately couldn't muster enough pace early in the race to take the lead for Mrs Negus.

I would say nearly ALL races in NZ and Oz see the participants doing their best (and as Mr Fitzgerald has said in this thread ), you definitely try and take advantage of a good barrier draw when you get it !

His horse performed quite poorly , had enough at the 1/4 unfortunately, but that's racing for ya !

The Dexter Dunn video here above is a JOKE surely? from 4 years ago at Ashburton ?. 

the near 'Best Driver in the world' , called out for getting beaten by the number 1 runner ,who had every luxury up front sprint laning from behind leader?? hahahahaha , and DDunn drew the 12 alley. This Happens all the time ???? A second row horse getting home well late on and just missing? . Not Dexters fault Master Moonlite was paying $1.20  some mug lost their money and is bitter, I spose. DDunn did what he could and nearly won from difficult barrier draw.  excellent effort. sat one-one with same horse Wyndham soon after and only 2nd again. Can't win them all.

 

[the galah]

16 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Totally ! pretty 'one-paced' horse that unfortunately couldn't muster enough pace early in the race to take the lead for Mrs Negus.

I would say nearly ALL races in NZ and Oz see the participants doing their best (and as Mr Fitzgerald has said in this thread ), you definitely try and take advantage of a good barrier draw when you get it !

His horse performed quite poorly , had enough at the 1/4 unfortunately, but that's racing for ya !

The Dexter Dunn video here above is a JOKE surely? from 4 years ago at Ashburton ?. 

the near 'Best Driver in the world' , called out for getting beaten by the number 1 runner ,who had every luxury up front sprint laning from behind leader?? hahahahaha , and DDunn drew the 12 alley. This Happens all the time ???? A second row horse getting home well late on and just missing? . Not Dexters fault Master Moonlite was paying $1.20  some mug lost their money and is bitter, I spose. DDunn did what he could and nearly won from difficult barrier draw.  excellent effort. sat one-one with same horse Wyndham soon after and only 2nd again. Can't win them all.

 

The dunn drive is a different situation,and was debated at the time,but the point the poster was making was the stipes accept high profile drivers excuses,no matter whether they have merit or not.

While it has nothing to do with todays subject,you cant ignore that sometimes stipes inaction when it actually deserves it has long term serious consequences. They should not base what action they take on the ability of the drivers concerned,. It should be based on what occurred,not who it involves.

I don't think you can say the ashburton dunn video that was put up earlier by another posted is a joke,nor was the dunn driven eamon maguire video that got the media attention pre inca.You see,some have always argued that inca was partly a result of the stipes historically basing what action they took on who was involved,not what actually happened.

[Brodie]

To put it into perspective, there are many poor drives at every meeting.

Amateur races are exactly that, they are a betting medium that you can take it or Leave it , you take your chances.

I don’t bother with them nowadays but what I would say is that most of the drivers are real enthusiasts.

Fact is that they have more brains in that they work outside of the industry where the dollars will be better and workload generally easier.

The biggest problem with the race yesterday is that all of the horses are past their best and lack too much ability now.

[Nowornever]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

Totally ! pretty 'one-paced' horse that unfortunately couldn't muster enough pace early in the race to take the lead for Mrs Negus.

I would say nearly ALL races in NZ and Oz see the participants doing their best (and as Mr Fitzgerald has said in this thread ), you definitely try and take advantage of a good barrier draw when you get it !

His horse performed quite poorly , had enough at the 1/4 unfortunately, but that's racing for ya !

The Dexter Dunn video here above is a JOKE surely? from 4 years ago at Ashburton ?. 

the near 'Best Driver in the world' , called out for getting beaten by the number 1 runner ,who had every luxury up front sprint laning from behind leader?? hahahahaha , and DDunn drew the 12 alley. This Happens all the time ???? A second row horse getting home well late on and just missing? . Not Dexters fault Master Moonlite was paying $1.20  some mug lost their money and is bitter, I spose. DDunn did what he could and nearly won from difficult barrier draw.  excellent effort. sat one-one with same horse Wyndham soon after and only 2nd again. Can't win them all.

 

You have completely missed the point here which is the stipes can be fed any old story and they swallow it hook line and sinker.

Dexter said in the inquiry he didn't want the horse to do any work midrace in the early stage of its career, but 10 days previously he made the horse do exactly that in much faster time.

Good drivers use the uselessness of the stipes to their advantage and good luck to them. In this case Dexter not only pulled the stipes pants down, he gave them one right up the back passage as well.

[Gammalite]

1 minute ago, Nowornever said:

You have completely missed the point here which is the stipes can be fed any old story and they swallow it hook line and sinker.

If that is your point , I believe this comment of yours to be totally true. You don't go in the stewards room bleating about your peers or your own ability ! you spin some story that blames the 'horse' everytime .....

Like a court of law , with the most learned folk around , you have a few 'spinning stories' most trials .

Stewards are a 'mini-court' looking to impose some penalty . What a STUPID THING IMO that stewards would be asking a Top Professional driver   ...... " Why didn't you pull out and go forward at the 1100m mark ???  

WTF ! are they driving the race?? need some remote controls lol.......  never got asked that in my life thank god. 

Dexter told them he was looking after his horse as he saw fit in the run . good enough for me.

27 minutes ago, the galah said:

The dunn drive is a different situation,and was debated at the time,but the point the poster was making was the stipes accept high profile drivers excuses,no matter whether they have merit or not.

Not that different. Just a driver making a decision in the running that 'Some' don't agree with !!! stewards just have to suck that up as well . Ross Cameron getting the same treatment lately (unfairly IMO ) that Ferguson one at Auckland, was pretty bad IMO,(and yours)  and would of liked to of been a steward on that case !!!.............lol.......