South Island Racing Programme: Not Fit For Purpose?!

[Doomed]

"Superstar" Wow. That is a great advertisement for SI racing anyhow. After winning a $10,000 five horse maiden in the NI, a couple of wins and a placing in Canterbury and it is a superstar.  Which does tend to make it even stranger that Canterbury has to go 77 days without a feature meeting. 

[Freda]

Historically,  Canterbury and Otago/Southland racing districts had stakeholders and horses in sufficient numbers to be able to stand alone, mostly. 

But more recently,  it is obvious that that was no longer the case, and there was a tacit agreement not to race against the other district's premier or important meeting.  So, once Cup meeting was over, there was a modest Coast circuit ( offered a welcome break from the heat and dust and tough competition) and a few other smaller meetings in both districts leading up to Boxing Day at Dunedin/Timaru Cup in Canterbury.  Then Invercargill had its day in the sun, followed by another Coast circuit for Canterbury along with Omakau/Cromwell for the southerners. 

Things have been fiddled around with since and dates altered - but the arrangement did work well.

Wellington was a target after the Dunedin/Invercargill options, for the classier southern horses, coming as it did, then, right after the second Coast circuit in early/mid Jan  and at times clashing.   

At least there wasn't the situation seen up north  with the change in the Auckland Cup meeting as well.as the Karaka meeting pulling the Wellington Cup meeting to pieces -ruining the Trentham Stakes and other races into the bargain. 

A premier meeting at Riccarton was never considered, between Cup and the Midsummer meeting late January,  too many folk away on holiday and too much racing all over the place to make it work.

There have been mutterings from a few trainers who don't want to travel away, but the summer racing pattern did work well.

There were even two- and three- year old races over the period. Fancy that.

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Freda

[curious]

I agree Freda that this is pretty much how it has been for decades with virtually no summer racing in Canterbury. Certainly worked well for some who enjoyed the travel to the coast and central Otago but others simply gave up after Cup week, turned horses out and prepared them for autumn, maybe keeping the odd one going for Dunedin or Timaru. The coast in January was often a necessity to give horses runs for Trentham as it was really the only option there. Hasn't really changed much.

[Doomed]

1 hour ago, curious said:

I agree Freda that this is pretty much how it has been for decades with virtually no summer racing in Canterbury. Certainly worked well for some who enjoyed the travel to the coast and central Otago but others simply gave up after Cup week, turned horses out and prepared them for autumn, maybe keeping the odd one going for Dunedin or Timaru. The coast in January was often a necessity to give horses runs for Trentham as it was really the only option there. Hasn't really changed much.

All very good points from both yourself and Freda. Back in those days of course most races were run for similar stakes so other than the various "Cup" races it didn't really matter where you raced. These days we have our unique version of tiered racing so if you want to run in a $30,000 rating 65 you have to travel 8 hours or so. We also had 10 race programmes in those days so there were more likely to be suitable options for most horses. Now some fully fit horses can go 5 or 6 weeks without an opportunity.

And there used to be suitable target races to aim for. Wingatui for instance had the Guineas and a decent 2yo race on Boxing day. Most Wingatui stakes that day were similar to Timaru a couple of days later, now massively different. A Canterbury horse aiming for the Timaru Cup this year has to warm up via a $15,000 rating 80 at Riccarton. A Canterbury horse aiming for the features at Wingatui on Boxing Day has no warm up options at all.

I may be totally wrong and Canterbury trainers may be totally set in their ways, but it does seem that something isn't quite right. It seems strange that once you come through $50,000 low grade races on NZ Cup Day your next big target is $12,000 races on the Coast.

[Joe Bloggs]

Riddle me this, how does a business pay it's executives mega salaries and yet offer it's goods at bargain basement cost? If you talk volume, you might have an argument, but the prize money on offer does not correlate to the salarymen/women at NZTR........are South Islanders lesser people? are the tracks and the horses inferior? did Saundry have a horrific experience in the SI? Purcell before him? Jackson and co, all, whoever took a set against the south really has a case to answer.

The good burghers of SI racing who at least carry clout in the South should have stood up and the populace should have followed them and screamed the house down.........there are some great tracks down south, always have been, but unless there is upheaval the coming generations will not see what we saw.

The SI has produced champion jockeys, trainers and horses, the equal at least of the north, there is toxic and malice thinking at head office directed at the SI, it may be subliminal, but it's there, and how disturbing is that? 

In recent times here in QLD a deputation of trainers with the backing of their owners approached Queensland Racing with several issues, there was an ultimatum put, it was accepted, back in the day at Flemington the trainers called a meeting, CS Hayes, JB Cummings, J Meagher, Tom Hughes Snr, Terry Millard, some famous names, some voted by proxy, but it was a united front.

 I only had a small team and a small voice, but a voice nevertheless, and the VRC committee were put on notice, it worked, the point........a united front, there is a very well known trainer at Riccarton who carries clout, he should be the first onside regarding change to programming, he might not be totally onside but he's no fool, to maintain owners and for the SI to go ahead change is needed, the entire training centre in alignment with those further south, have to enforce change.

We don't have horses in work there now, but we did, if we did so now, we'd support our trainer with any action needed to bring Petone to the table.

[Freda]

1 hour ago, Doomed said:

All very good points from both yourself and Freda. Back in those days of course most races were run for similar stakes so other than the various "Cup" races it didn't really matter where you raced. These days we have our unique version of tiered racing so if you want to run in a $30,000 rating 65 you have to travel 8 hours or so. We also had 10 race programmes in those days so there were more likely to be suitable options for most horses. Now some fully fit horses can go 5 or 6 weeks without an opportunity.

And there used to be suitable target races to aim for. Wingatui for instance had the Guineas and a decent 2yo race on Boxing day. Most Wingatui stakes that day were similar to Timaru a couple of days later, now massively different. A Canterbury horse aiming for the Timaru Cup this year has to warm up via a $15,000 rating 80 at Riccarton. A Canterbury horse aiming for the features at Wingatui on Boxing Day has no warm up options at all.

I may be totally wrong and Canterbury trainers may be totally set in their ways, but it does seem that something isn't quite right. It seems strange that once you come through $50,000 low grade races on NZ Cup Day your next big target is $12,000 races on the Coast.

Yes, it did used to work Ok then, but now it is a dog for some horses.  The changing in classification of horses also hasn't helped. I'm not against the ratings system per se, but it is nowhere near as inclusive as earlier models.    Some play the system very well, others not,  but overall it leads to huge disparities in opportunities for some grades of horses.

[curious]

 

43 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

We don't have horses in work there now, but we did, if we did so now, we'd support our trainer with any action needed to bring Petone to the table.

So, what is an owner or trainer supposed to do? Keep moving horses round the country to where there are opportunities for it? We do have one in work down there and this has a big impact on us. It's fucking ridiculous. Moved the horse down there because there were virtually no races for it in the CD spring but half a dozen down there. A few delays and most of those were missed. Now nothing in Canterbury for 2+ months. Spell it? Retire it? Bring it back to the CD where there are a number of opportunities now - Trentham/ Awapuni etc.? Problem is with low rating points may not get starts. If we'd kept it here we would probably be deciding whether or not to go round on a heavy track at Foxton trials this week. At least there is the AWT down there now to get one ready. 

Go round on an industry day and try to get some rating points without winning? Find a jockey capable of executing that? I know it happens. Have first hand knowledge in fact of a still leading SI jockey in Melbourne for a Cup lead up race telling the trainer 'shit I've never been asked to pull one up in a 500k race before'. But hook it he did. Plans went a bit awry after that but still. This sort of stuff just gets punters thronging to bet on NZ racing.

[Doomed]

It's not as if the SI is asking for a hand out, the frustrating thing is there is enormous potential in the South if it was run properly. There are plenty of horses they just aren't being utilized properly. 

Look at Ascot Park last Saturday. The only maiden was over 1,400m. So several horses who wanted a start had nothing for them. And of those maidens who did start over 1,400m probably 50% would rather have been racing over 1,200m, 1,600m or 2,000m. And people wonder why form is inconsistent.

One of the basic things that needs to be fixed is that they need to programme 10 races, rather than 7 or 8 and possibly split one, which currently happens. The SI doesn't have the luxury of two meetings in a row a couple of days apart with multiple opportunities over various distances which happens in the NI.

I think we are at the stage where the prominent trainers have to take a stand and point out what is wrong.

[curious]

45 minutes ago, Doomed said:

I think we are at the stage where the prominent trainers have to take a stand and point out what is wrong.

I think we are way past that stage. They didn't and haven't. Tried to get the Canterbury TA on board to do so 20 years ago. Weren't interested.

[Reefton]

All good stuff and all good reasoning.  Some of the stuff I was thinking about to put this 'study' together (setting out a programme that cures a lot of the distortions being a major one but providing a logical progression two and three year old programme for the south as well - an alternative to the spring two and three year old races which as they stand are essentially a North Island benefit)

Trying to get a few radical ideas to encourage(say) old geldings to stay in the game and at the same time to create a bit of interest

Major concern though is that one or two prominent members of the Canterbury Trainers Assn would like everything to be at Riccarton(not unlike the prominent members of the national TA who want everything at Te Rapa and Ellerslie).  Hence the attempt to move the forthcoming Kumara date to the all weather at Riccarton.

If they think Riccarton can survive in its own then they are living in la la land especially given the issues with the main track.  And to be fair with that attitude why would someone like me with the imagination to do the job(a fairly rare commodity in SI or NZ racing) bother?  Not only fighting NZTR and the Northern hierarchy but trying to help people who don't want to be helped?

[nomates]

18 hours ago, Doomed said:

"Superstar" Wow. That is a great advertisement for SI racing anyhow. After winning a $10,000 five horse maiden in the NI, a couple of wins and a placing in Canterbury and it is a superstar.  Which does tend to make it even stranger that Canterbury has to go 77 days without a feature meeting. 

When you consider the overall strength of NZ racing he is a superstar , anywhere else a nice promising horse . If you are sending a mare to him you are doing purely on hope and because he is cheap , but the devil is in the detail , grazing and vet fees are what has killed breeding a cheap horse . Even at 3k with transport grazing and vet not a lot if anything left out of 10/12k . Plus going on his performance as with Embellish , their progeny will take time .

[curious]

Reefton, if you are really going to write this paper you need to do so with blinkers off. Why would anyone with a horse in training in Canterbury want to race it on the West Coast? Nothing against West Coast racing. Loved going there and I think we previously discussed I once won a race at one of the final Westport meetings. Never raced one there when training in Canterbury though. Did relent and take one to Kumara once. However, a sprinkling of coal dust and some overnight rain and we spent the morning watching helicopters trying to dry out the track and were home for afternoon tea. A prominent SI trainer at the time had also relented but also said, never again.

[Chief Stipe]

With posters permission I might shift the SI Racing posts to their own Thread as there is some good stuff.  But nothing to do with Noverre.

But regarding Noverre I had my concerns about the track that day.  I also don't think the track was conducive to the type of lane changing ride that Noverre experienced when it appears to have suffered its injury.

[Chief Stipe]

Place holder 

[Doomed]

58 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

With posters permission I might shift the SI Racing posts to their own Thread as there is some good stuff.  But nothing to do with Noverre.

But regarding Noverre I had my concerns about the track that day.  I also don't think the track was conducive to the type of lane changing ride that Noverre experienced when it appears to have suffered its injury.

I did think the discussion was drifting slightly Chief.

[nomates]

I agree with everybody's sentiment on this topic but the reality is that what used to really work for us was in another lifetime , a life time when there were 6000+ foals being bred , so many that there were division races for maidens and even then horses had to qualify at trials for an A or B certificate as the only sure way to get a start . A time when training costs were affordable to many and the costs for doing it yourself made it worthwhile . When i first got my licence there were 700+ owner trainers alone in the calendar , be lucky if there were half that including full and permitted trainers now . Back when a fair horse could easily pay it's way .

Things have radically changed over the last 30 years , the costs associated with breeding have taken it away from the hands of the small breeder of 1 or 2 , so the foal crop has slowly declined , that along with the numbers still going through the sales , because of the continued success of the NZ bred horse overseas , then the massive growth of Asia as a market for trialled and tried horses as racing in HK and Singapore got huge which has inflated prices for those horses which has made it difficult for all owners but especially at the lower end to refuse good money when compared to racing a horse here .

Our foal crop is so precariously low now that when we factor in the yearling sales then the RTR and trialled and lightly raced horses we would be lucky if we are left with a third of a crop for the domestic market to race .

So where are we now , we are left with a shadow of the industry we once had , it is what it is , we will never get back to where we were , so we should be trying to work with what we have , but unfortunately a lot haven't got the memo especially the ones with the power to change things . 

For me that me that means a complete rebuild of our industry , with all industry participants being able to have their say , the rating system doesn't work with the calibre of horse we have now , the programming is a shambles , even up north there is trainers complaining at the lack of suitable races for horses . Doomed mentioned 2yo's for the SI but the 2yo structure is a shambles everywhere . A large part of the 2yo scenes problems has been the introduction of the Karaka Millions and how it completely dominates the 2yo scene and the flow on effect after it . But the structure of our programming for all divisions of our racing has to be reset .

One of the biggest issues with the programming is how one club in each island has been able to run rough shod over other clubs that has hugely impacted those clubs meetings , in some cases so called " Iconic " meetings . 

We have huge track issues , the quality of jockeys slowly diluting , the list goes on .

For me i think they are set on a path of concentrating the power in the North and there are people with great influence pushing this agenda .

I maybe reading it wrong , but when i see so many issues , especially in the CD and the SI , not being addressed , i don't know what else to believe .  

[Doomed]

1 hour ago, Reefton said:

 

Major concern though is that one or two prominent members of the Canterbury Trainers Assn would like everything to be at Riccarton(not unlike the prominent members of the national TA who want everything at Te Rapa and Ellerslie).  Hence the attempt to move the forthcoming Kumara date to the all weather at Riccarton.

 

You must tell us more about this idea of moving the Kumara meeting to the  Riccarton AWT. Might be seen as a bit controversial. Could also be highly embarrassing if Omoto and Reefton get good fields and the AWT struggles to get a quorum. Very brave of them too when you consider the Cambridge AWT has been up and going all year and the highest grade of race they have held on it is a 74, and here's Riccarton that has never been raced on holding open class feature races. That assumes they do race the Kumara Cup.

It would also be embarrassing if they change from a Kumara meeting with genuine sponsors for every race to a metropolitan meeting with no real sponsors, just a recycling of some of the names they used during Cup Week.

[Doomed]

1 hour ago, curious said:

Reefton, if you are really going to write this paper you need to do so with blinkers off. Why would anyone with a horse in training in Canterbury want to race it on the West Coast? Nothing against West Coast racing. Loved going there and I think we previously discussed I once won a race at one of the final Westport meetings. Never raced one there when training in Canterbury though. Did relent and take one to Kumara once. However, a sprinkling of coal dust and some overnight rain and we spent the morning watching helicopters trying to dry out the track and were home for afternoon tea. A prominent SI trainer at the time had also relented but also said, never again.

Could someone remind me why they stopped racing at Westport? It was probably the biggest galloping track on the Coast. Stopped some time in the 80s from memory. I think Nelson stopped at a similar time. 

[Doomed]

If anyone wants an example of the different treatment for NI and SI racing you need look no further than this statement today regarding this week's Ashburton meeting.

The R65 1400 MAY be divided IF more nominations are received..

25 noms already and they may divide it if they get more. No more noms and 9 will miss a start. One or two more noms.....yeah nah, still not worth splitting it.

Contrast that with Pukekohe this week. 20 noms for a 2yo race, one already scratched. Sure no trouble, of course we can split it, no worry about running 12 races.

[Joe Bloggs]

2 hours ago, nomates said:

When you consider the overall strength of NZ racing he is a superstar , anywhere else a nice promising horse . If you are sending a mare to him you are doing purely on hope and because he is cheap , but the devil is in the detail , grazing and vet fees are what has killed breeding a cheap horse . Even at 3k with transport grazing and vet not a lot if anything left out of 10/12k . Plus going on his performance as with Embellish , their progeny will take time .

Here's something to ponder NM, we agist our filly at a reputable property run by expat Kiwi's up in the Northern Rivers for less than 20 bucks a day!!!!!........lots of grass, one feed a day, great fencing and people on site 24/7.

6 years ago we approached a Wairarapa breeder to inquire rates to agist a 2yo filly, the answer was 28 bucks a day ++ and she had to share with 1 other, maybe 2.......the gauging in NZ is endemic and a blight on the decent hardworking people that charge reasonable rates, they are hard to find, they're there, but almost invisible. Through circumstances we relocated most of our mares to the Waikato, and yet still had to find 25 bucks a day, no discount for numbers.....until that mentality is destroyed the road to the cliff will be well patronised.......Pabulum...... = food for thought.

[Reefton]

2 hours ago, curious said:

Reefton, if you are really going to write this paper you need to do so with blinkers off. Why would anyone with a horse in training in Canterbury want to race it on the West Coast? Nothing against West Coast racing. Loved going there and I think we previously discussed I once won a race at one of the final Westport meetings. Never raced one there when training in Canterbury though. Did relent and take one to Kumara once. However, a sprinkling of coal dust and some overnight rain and we spent the morning watching helicopters trying to dry out the track and were home for afternoon tea. A prominent SI trainer at the time had also relented but also said, never again.

Don't get the idea I was planning something that would be focused on the future of the Coast.  God knows I have said often enough that the tracks here are all substandard(with the proviso that ours is no worse than anyone else's here so arbitrarily shutting down ours is BS).  The Coast is a mere sideshow in the scheme of things.

But using your logic why would anyone with a horse in training in Canterbury want to race it at Oamaru or south?  So why would you keep any of those tracks open?  Lets just concentrate everything on Riccarton 365 days of the year eh?

 

[Reefton]

57 minutes ago, Doomed said:

Could someone remind me why they stopped racing at Westport? It was probably the biggest galloping track on the Coast. Stopped some time in the 80s from memory. I think Nelson stopped at a similar time. 

Lack of enthusiasm among the committee maybe?  I don't 100% remember - it just ebbed away.  It was/is a 1200m track so was smaller than both Hokitika and Kumara.  That's another important thing about South Island and NZ Racing - it is the Committees that facilitate the racing.  The product may come from the stakeholders but most of those track closures were a result of the committees losing the inclination to carry on.  We ourselves were perilously close to the same fate five or so years back.

 

[Reefton]

1 hour ago, Doomed said:

You must tell us more about this idea of moving the Kumara meeting to the  Riccarton AWT. Might be seen as a bit controversial. Could also be highly embarrassing if Omoto and Reefton get good fields and the AWT struggles to get a quorum. Very brave of them too when you consider the Cambridge AWT has been up and going all year and the highest grade of race they have held on it is a 74, and here's Riccarton that has never been raced on holding open class feature races. That assumes they do race the Kumara Cup.

It would also be embarrassing if they change from a Kumara meeting with genuine sponsors for every race to a metropolitan meeting with no real sponsors, just a recycling of some of the names they used during Cup Week.

To be fair I am only reporting hearsay.  I have nothing whatsoever to do with the Kumara Racing Club and never set foot on their course for one year to the next but I got rung about three or so weeks ago by someone in the know wanted to know what I knew about moves by two Riccarton Trainers to have the January meeting transferred to the Riccarton AWT.  Jeff McLaughlin(Secretary) assured me that NZTR had said all three days on the Coast were to be run here.

I don't care really except that of course Canterbury trainers are unlikely to bother traveling all the way to the Coast if they have a meeting on their doorstep and that would adversely affect our meeting three days before.

There is talk about the Kumara Track(again I have never been on it since the last meeting) and in my experience when it comes to talk about the Kumara track where there is smoke there is fire.  Ironically two years ago when they cancelled one of the guys who was supposed to be getting this meeting transferred was all for defending the Kumara track and saying there was nothing wrong a day before the pin was pulled.

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Reefton

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Doomed said:

If anyone wants an example of the different treatment for NI and SI racing you need look no further than this statement today regarding this week's Ashburton meeting.

The R65 1400 MAY be divided IF more nominations are received..

25 noms already and they may divide it if they get more. No more noms and 9 will miss a start. One or two more noms.....yeah nah, still not worth splitting it.

Contrast that with Pukekohe this week. 20 noms for a 2yo race, one already scratched. Sure no trouble, of course we can split it, no worry about running 12 races.

Going on those numbers they could realistically split 2 of the maiden races as well , reasonably expect 12 horse fields for all 6 races if split . Don't worry the CD is treated much the same .

As for the 2yo's at Pukekohe that comes back to a colossal Feck up in the programming , 6 weeks out from the Karaka Million and they have had very few 2yo races in comparison to recent seasons , and the ones they have had not all horses that got stake money are registered for the race . So they have created a squeeze for horses to qualify , and this race wasn't even programmed up until last week . So where is the planning and pathways .

In the CD , they took the Wakefield to Te Rapa , so they have a 2yo race at Awapuni on Saturday , and as far as i can see only 1 1000mtr race at Tauherenikau programmed before the KM , not exactly conducive to preparing a horse for the race if you have a serious intent to try and get one there .

[Reefton]

2 hours ago, curious said:

Reefton, if you are really going to write this paper you need to do so with blinkers off. Why would anyone with a horse in training in Canterbury want to race it on the West Coast? Nothing against West Coast racing. Loved going there and I think we previously discussed I once won a race at one of the final Westport meetings. Never raced one there when training in Canterbury though. Did relent and take one to Kumara once. However, a sprinkling of coal dust and some overnight rain and we spent the morning watching helicopters trying to dry out the track and were home for afternoon tea. A prominent SI trainer at the time had also relented but also said, never again.

Do you remember that whopping great Tent Mobil put up there(which was at the time of the helicopters ferrying people in and out).  Love Kumara or hate Kumara that was a piss up and a half!  Trouble with them(still) is there is massive enthusiasm for organising the piss up and little for maintaining the racing surface.  To be fair it is built on a swamp so it is a hard job.