Levante - World Record for 1200m in the 2022 Telegraph

[nomates]

14 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

So if a Jockey doesn't whip as much as he or she is allowed to and gets beaten a nose is that a fail on the Jockey's part?

The whip is an unknown quantity , perhaps if he had hit as much as legally allowed the horse might have gotten beaten a neck , every horse reacts differently and jockeys all use the whip differently .

Why does one jockey get more from a horse when he uses the whip , OPB and Parkes for 2 get their horses to lift in tight finish more than others i have noticed . At the end of the day there has to be a line and jockeys have to ride within it .

I watched the Bonecrusher/Waverley Star Cox plate the other day and by geez the last 200 the whips never stopped , never be allowed today , i did wince as i watched .

The good old days , when giving your kids a clip was legal . I know my mum never used a feather duster .

[curious]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

So if a Jockey doesn't whip as much as he or she is allowed to and gets beaten a nose is that a fail on the Jockey's part?

Of course not. What a stupid question. If the horse is trying its best it doesn't need whipping at all, only to be told it needs to do its absolute best now. Determining that comes down to the professional judgement of the rider. The NGHs and CWJs of the world were/are masters at that. One or 2 other contemporary riders, some mistresses not masters that I can think of but they are rare birds here these days.

Edited January 16, 2022 by curious

[billy connolly]

2 hours ago, curious said:

If you think it's a feather duster,  have a walk round the tie ups on raceday and look at the welts they leave or get someone to give you a couple with one and see if it hurts.

Didn't hurt Levante. Jockeys rarely hurt horses with the whip, they hurt them by giving them a hard run in transit.

 

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

So if a Jockey doesn't whip as much as he or she is allowed to and gets beaten a nose is that a fail on the Jockey's part?

Jockey incompetence is a far bigger issue in this country than feather duster whips, but the powers that be wouldn't know that because they're incompetent themselves.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

57 minutes ago, curious said:

Of course not. What a stupid question. If the horse is trying its best it doesn't need whipping at all, only to be told it needs to do its absolute best now. Determining that comes down to the professional judgement of the rider. The NGHs and CWJs of the world were/are masters at that. One or 2 other contemporary riders, some mistresses not masters that I can think of but they are rare birds here these days.

If I've said this before, please excuse an old waffler', however, Roy Higgins [the greatest jockey to ever live, and my business partner in the late 80's ] said to me once, I didn't want to hit them if they were in front, and I tried to live to that edict', Roy reasoned that, if they had got to the front they were giving their best, he added though, every now and again you'd get on a colt that had a tendency to bludge and needed a reminder, but not a thrashing, unlike Mick Dittman the persuader. He and one MR Campbell were the strongest whip riders I saw, with J Cassidy and Roger Lang being the best hands and heels exponents. If you get the opportunity to watch Perth jockey Lucy Warwick ride, she also is super at the hands and heels caper, Lucy was a champion apprentice who doesn't get the rides she deserves nowadays, but boy when she kicks them, they say kicked.

[Chief Stipe]

10 hours ago, curious said:

Of course not. What a stupid question. If the horse is trying its best it doesn't need whipping at all, only to be told it needs to do its absolute best now. Determining that comes down to the professional judgement of the rider. The NGHs and CWJs of the world were/are masters at that. One or 2 other contemporary riders, some mistresses not masters that I can think of but they are rare birds here these days.

So you gave CWJ a serve for breaking the rules on your horse?

[Chief Stipe]

9 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Lucy was a champion apprentice who doesn't get the rides she deserves nowadays, but boy when she kicks them, they say kicked.

So kicking them doesn't hurt them?  @curious using your example if I kicked you in the ribs would it hurt?

@Joe Bloggs Should kicking them be banned as well?  Or are the whip rules only virtue signalling and has zero to do with animal welfare.

What next?  Ban tongue ties, corrective bits, the blind folds, the blinkers, twitches.  Where do you stop?

BTW name one top Jockey in either OZ or NZ that hasn't broken the respective whip rules at least once.

I guess on the bright side the Thoroughbred rules aren't as stupid as the Harness ones with their silly wrist action rule.

[curious]

12 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

So you gave CWJ a serve for breaking the rules on your horse?

Think he got enough of a serve. Lot more than the riding fee and %. And  he's trying to beat someone else breaking that rule. Neither probably changed the result. Did think about donating the stake to a horse welfare outfit though.

[curious]

8 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

@curious using your example if I kicked you in the ribs would it hurt?

@Joe Bloggs

 

I quite like it with spurs on.

[curious]

10 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

If I've said this before, please excuse an old waffler', however, Roy Higgins [the greatest jockey to ever live, and my business partner in the late 80's ] said to me once, I didn't want to hit them if they were in front, and I tried to live to that edict', Roy reasoned that, if they had got to the front they were giving their best, he added though, every now and again you'd get on a colt that had a tendency to bludge and needed a reminder, but not a thrashing, unlike Mick Dittman the persuader. He and one MR Campbell were the strongest whip riders I saw, with J Cassidy and Roger Lang being the best hands and heels exponents. If you get the opportunity to watch Perth jockey Lucy Warwick ride, she also is super at the hands and heels caper, Lucy was a champion apprentice who doesn't get the rides she deserves nowadays, but boy when she kicks them, they say kicked.

Long time ago now, I remember NGH riding an enigmatic mare for me at Riccarton Easter. A Class 4 race back in the day when we had proper handicaps. Wouldn't pretend to give the likes of him instructions but asked him what the track was like. Few puggy patches he said. Just said you have to kid her through those and she's only little, doesn't like getting tightened up between horses. Watched the race in the bottom of the members' stand. 2000m, 3 wide without cover the whole way. 3 across the track, the two favourites I think and her at 33/1 in between. I'd long given up backing her. Every time I thought I had her dead on and had a punt she'd stop dead and run 30 lengths last. Decided that wasn't a good way to try and make a living! Anyway, I was muttering under my breath at the 150, think you need to give her one Noel. Hadn't touched her. She thinks this is a track gallop and is just doing enough to keep up. Told me after he was afraid to hit her in case she stopped. Thought she was gone at the 500 but grabbed the bit again 100 later (probably the worst part of the Riccarton track disaster there). Anyway, he gave her a good slap and she drew away to win comfortably by 3/4 l. When he came back to scale, he just said they told me she goes the odd good one. That was a good one!

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, curious said:

Think he got enough of a serve. Lot more than the riding fee and %. And  he's trying to beat someone else breaking that rule. Neither probably changed the result. Did think about donating the stake to a horse welfare outfit though.

So are you campaigning for all the horses racing in the upcoming Wellington and Auckland Cups to be CT/MRI scanned?

[Joe Bloggs]

1 hour ago, curious said:

I quite like it with spurs on.

Then a quiet smoke? and an Uber home?

[Joe Bloggs]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

So kicking them doesn't hurt them?  @curious using your example if I kicked you in the ribs would it hurt?

@Joe Bloggs Should kicking them be banned as well?  Or are the whip rules only virtue signalling and has zero to do with animal welfare.

What next?  Ban tongue ties, corrective bits, the blind folds, the blinkers, twitches.  Where do you stop?

BTW name one top Jockey in either OZ or NZ that hasn't broken the respective whip rules at least once.

I guess on the bright side the Thoroughbred rules aren't as stupid as the Harness ones with their silly wrist action rule.

Well if you watch carefully all jockeys nowadays ride 3 holes or more higher than we did, even if they wear hooks the horses wouldn't be feeling much as they kick the number cloth! We could actually tickle their ribs, and it wasn't a kick Chief, it's a rake, we used to push and shove, cajole but let me tell you those great jocks I mentioned got the very best out of their horses without the slathering. We get back to the old discussion however, these kids nowadays turn for home and immediately go for the whip, many unbalance the horse and many look just plain terrible, so, who's teaching them, IMO you're not born with a race brain, you get that from watching and learning better riders than yourself, and a great education system [apprentice school] sadly it's missing in NZ, NOT HERE, so part of the blame lays with Petone.

Why am I so savage on Petone you may ask? well most of you wont, but for the dis-believers, it all starts and finishes with Petone, poor leadership and the failure to identify and address so many issues....enough said.

[Chief Stipe]

13 hours ago, nomates said:

Why does one jockey get more from a horse when he uses the whip , OPB and Parkes for 2 get their horses to lift in tight finish more than others i have noticed . At the end of the day there has to be a line and jockeys have to ride within it .

So @nomates if there is a line why does the line stop at the first four places?  Putting aside the ludicrous paying of diminishing stakes back to 10th and the stupid head to head betting there are many many instances every race day of where Jockey's out of the top four placings have broken the rules.  Shouldn't they apply to ALL the horses if this truly is a welfare issue?

It is obvious that the whip and stride counting is not done in real time - I'm guessing it is done by a Steward either remotely or on course but one that has full access to the high definition side and head on vision.  There is absolutely no way that a Steward can count whip action in real time at full speed.  Even @curious who had a vested interest in watching his horse couldn't see in the heat of the moment what CWJ was doing with the whip.

I note that NO ONE commented on Elliot's whip until AFTER the Stewards had fined him and it was published.  If perception is reality then the reality is that unless you are looking at the slo-mo head on vision you have no idea whether the whip rules have been broken or not.  Hell how many tracks have clear distance markers down to 100m for a start?!

How many times have when seen a horse thrashed when they are out of contention from a first four placing yet we see absolutely nothing from the Stipes.  Let alone the armchair critics let alone the animal welfare drum bangers!

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

We get back to the old discussion however, these kids nowadays turn for home and immediately go for the whip, many unbalance the horse and many look just plain terrible, so, who's teaching them, IMO you're not born with a race brain, you get that from watching and learning better riders than yourself, and a great education system [apprentice school] sadly it's missing in NZ, NOT HERE, so part of the blame lays with Petone.

I agree 100%.  I cringe when I see what these drunken sailors flaying the reins around all over the place and what they are doing to mouths of their mounts.  That must hurt more than a few whips across the rump.

[Joe Bloggs]

5 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Well if you watch carefully all jockeys nowadays ride 3 holes or more higher than we did, even if they wear hooks the horses wouldn't be feeling much as they kick the number cloth! We could actually tickle their ribs, and it wasn't a kick Chief, it's a rake, we used to push and shove, cajole but let me tell you those great jocks I mentioned got the very best out of their horses without the slathering. We get back to the old discussion however, these kids nowadays turn for home and immediately go for the whip, many unbalance the horse and many look just plain terrible, so, who's teaching them, IMO you're not born with a race brain, you get that from watching and learning better riders than yourself, and a great education system [apprentice school] sadly it's missing in NZ, NOT HERE, so part of the blame lays with Petone.

Why am I so savage on Petone you may ask? well most of you wont, but for the dis-believers, it all starts and finishes with Petone, poor leadership and the failure to identify and address so many issues....enough said.

I need to qualify, it was a kick, but in a raking style.....if you can ride them gallop then you'll know what I mean......

[Joe Bloggs]

25 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

So @nomates if there is a line why does the line stop at the first four places?  Putting aside the ludicrous paying of diminishing stakes back to 10th and the stupid head to head betting there are many many instances every race day of where Jockey's out of the top four placings have broken the rules.  Shouldn't they apply to ALL the horses if this truly is a welfare issue?

It is obvious that the whip and stride counting is not done in real time - I'm guessing it is done by a Steward either remotely or on course but one that has full access to the high definition side and head on vision.  There is absolutely no way that a Steward can count whip action in real time at full speed.  Even @curious who had a vested interest in watching his horse couldn't see in the heat of the moment what CWJ was doing with the whip.

I note that NO ONE commented on Elliot's whip until AFTER the Stewards had fined him and it was published.  If perception is reality then the reality is that unless you are looking at the slo-mo head on vision you have no idea whether the whip rules have been broken or not.  Hell how many tracks have clear distance markers down to 100m for a start?!

How many times have when seen a horse thrashed when they are out of contention from a first four placing yet we see absolutely nothing from the Stipes.  Let alone the armchair critics let alone the animal welfare drum bangers!

Fair point......there are a few bad tempered buggers that don't mind belting them when well beaten.......it must be the wasting, or they need to find another occupation!

[curious]

 

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

So are you campaigning for all the horses racing in the upcoming Wellington and Auckland Cups to be CT/MRI scanned?

No idea what that has to do with Levante or the whip rules.

[curious]

1 hour ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Then a quiet smoke? and an Uber home?

That would work.

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, curious said:

 

No idea what that has to do with Levante or the whip rules.

It has all to do with consistency in the pursuit of animal welfare in racing.  The whip rules are not applied consistently and one racing jurisdiction deems it is in the best interests of animal welfare to scan every horse starting in the Melbourne Cup.

So I guess you would support every ride in every race being subjected to scrutiny for adherence to the whip rules?  In the interests of animal welfare that would be consistent wouldn't it?

[curious]

51 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

 Even @curious who had a vested interest in watching his horse couldn't see in the heat of the moment what CWJ was doing with the whip.
 

That's the bloody trouble with these left handers. But I can sort of see now though the posted stewards vision is very poor quality and the darn vision for that is attached to race 5 instead of race 6 but that's the level of competence that you expect from Petone these days. That sorted out it was two consecutive backhanders down the shoulder hands off reins, so a breach. Both were in the last stride though and it appears the second one was either on or after the line. Does that count?

Edited January 16, 2022 by curious

[curious]

5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

So I guess you would support every ride in every race being subjected to scrutiny for adherence to the whip rules?  In the interests of animal welfare that would be consistent wouldn't it?

Absolutely. And any breaches, the horse should be disqualified.

[Chief Stipe]

42 minutes ago, curious said:

That's the bloody trouble with these left handers. But I can sort of see now though the posted stewards vision is very poor quality and the darn vision for that is attached to race 5 instead of race 6 but that's the level of competence that you expect from Petone these days. That sorted out it was two consecutive backhanders down the shoulder hands off reins, so a breach. Both were in the last stride though and it appears the second one was either on or after the line. Does that count?

Who would know but I doubt many apprentices can actually count fullstop.

[curious]

If it's on or after the post it is surely not "consecutive strides at any stage of the race" which is over at the post isn't it?

[nomates]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

How many times have when seen a horse thrashed when they are out of contention from a first four placing yet we see absolutely nothing from the Stipes.  Let alone the armchair critics let alone the animal welfare drum bangers!

Well you have seen me post many times about how much i hate this , especially when a poor ride has contributed to the horse being beaten . i yell at the TV for them to stop hitting the poor animal .

Most of the younger brigade of riders coming thru over the last few years have a very narrow view of race riding and tactics IMO , seem to follow a prescribed plan of what they think should be done in any given position at any given time of the race . You see very few try anything different  in a race to try and win .

I have said many times you watch most of the riders , seniors included here , in a race waiting for someone else to move before they do and most of the time it costs them the race , especially the ones that wait for the leaders to sprint before they ask their mount for an effort , all too late .

Same with whip use , they just think it has to be used to show that they know what they are doing .

And the boys are much worse than the girls .

Homogenized race riding .

[Joe Bloggs]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

Well you have seen me post many times about how much i hate this , especially when a poor ride has contributed to the horse being beaten . i yell at the TV for them to stop hitting the poor animal .

Most of the younger brigade of riders coming thru over the last few years have a very narrow view of race riding and tactics IMO , seem to follow a prescribed plan of what they think should be done in any given position at any given time of the race . You see very few try anything different  in a race to try and win .

I have said many times you watch most of the riders , seniors included here , in a race waiting for someone else to move before they do and most of the time it costs them the race , especially the ones that wait for the leaders to sprint before they ask their mount for an effort , all too late .

Same with whip use , they just think it has to be used to show that they know what they are doing .

And the boys are much worse than the girls .

Homogenized race riding .

Classic, especially paragraph 3!