Cam Jones Charged by RIB

[Chief Stipe]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/127723872/harness-trainer-charged-with-administering-substance-to-horse-on-race-day?cid=app-android

[Chief Stipe]

Charged with administering a prohibited substance on raceday.

Took long enough. 

The substance could be anything but will be interesting to see if a positive was returned from the samples taken.  Or are they relying on other evidence?

 

Johnny Nevits is cleared to race.

 

[Robalan]

Maybe you will now concede that I was right, Chief

[Chief Stipe]

14 minutes ago, Robalan said:

Maybe you will now concede that I was right, Chief

Right about what exactly?

[Robalan]

I said he would be charged, you disagreed

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, Robalan said:

I said he would be charged, you disagreed

I don't recall posting he wouldn't get charged.  I did post that he hadn't been charged and he wasn't until 11 Feb 2022.  

[Robalan]

It's not worth arguing about, it will be interesting to see what arises

[Chief Stipe]

32 minutes ago, Robalan said:

It's not worth arguing about, it will be interesting to see what arises

Well I hope it isn't a case of "something was administered but we don't know what it was" response.  Because that would be bollocks.  If there is something and their testing fails to pick it up then that's a failure too on the RIBs part.

 

[Robalan]

Lets wait and see

[LongOwner]

Another leak - nothing offical on RIU site

Inside leaker to the press needs to be identified. Come on RIU you cannot flush out your own internal mole.

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, LongOwner said:

Another leak - nothing offical on RIU site

Inside leaker to the press needs to be identified. Come on RIU you cannot flush out your own internal mole.

Yep that was my first thought yesterday.  I went to the RIB website to read the Press Release.  Guess what there isn't one!  The last one was the announcement of Mike Clement as CEO.

This morning I read where Clement has said that it is inevitable that Whips will be banned.  Since when did the CEO of the RIB make the Racing Rules let alone publicly comment on them?

[Forbury]

Very sad and wrong.punishiment should be that he gets driven while getting whipped and injected with the same drugs he gave that poor horse.

[Spatchcock]

1 hour ago, LongOwner said:

Another leak - nothing offical on RIU site

Inside leaker to the press needs to be identified. Come on RIU you cannot flush out your own internal mole.

Just wait till the RIB start charging the INCA people.. then watch the leaks!

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, Spatchcock said:

Just wait till the RIB start charging the INCA people.. then watch the leaks!

Well the very expensive District Court process has been dead ended.  So they are going to have to save face somehow.

[Spatchcock]

Just now, Chief Stipe said:

Well the very expensive District Court process has been dead ended.  So they are going to have to save face somehow.

That was inevitable for a few reasons including an idiot judge (google tells the story on him and it's very ugly).

Ultimately, RIB penalties were going to hurt anyone who has done wrong more than court penalties. None of it is jail worthy-stuff, but it most certainly meets the criteria for disqualification from being licensed.

[Chief Stipe]

10 minutes ago, Spatchcock said:

That was inevitable for a few reasons including an idiot judge (google tells the story on him and it's very ugly).

Classic losing team response - blame the Judge.  So the Police and the RIB didn't think that their case was strong enough to appeal?  My understanding is the Police had had enough anyway after having been prodded into it by their ex-colleagues.

12 minutes ago, Spatchcock said:

Ultimately, RIB penalties were going to hurt anyone who has done wrong more than court penalties. None of it is jail worthy-stuff, but it most certainly meets the criteria for disqualification from being licensed.

If what you allege is true (obviously you are close to the leaks) then why didn't the RIB (RIU) go down that path to start with?!  Also is it right that the burden of proof is so much lower in the RIB process?  

[Spatchcock]

40 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Classic losing team response - blame the Judge.  So the Police and the RIB didn't think that their case was strong enough to appeal?  My understanding is the Police had had enough anyway after having been prodded into it by their ex-colleagues.

If what you allege is true (obviously you are close to the leaks) then why didn't the RIB (RIU) go down that path to start with?!  Also is it right that the burden of proof is so much lower in the RIB process?  

Because the defendants were challenging the ability for the RIB to use the Police evidence. Without the Police surveillance evidence, the RIB would have no case. This is why the RIB had also not charged anyone yet because they were waiting for a court ruling on the evidence. 

 

As for the judge... the whole way along, the Police and RIB expectations were that Judge Idiot would throw the charges out. Then they could appeal to a higher court and get a different judge who isn't a total nutjob. 

This stance may have changed more recently but we will see.

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, Spatchcock said:

Because the defendants were challenging the ability for the RIB to use the Police evidence. Without the Police surveillance evidence, the RIB would have no case. This is why the RIB had also not charged anyone yet because they were waiting for a court ruling on the evidence. 

That was the last piece of court action.  All the prior action initiated by the Police and driven by the RIB either hit a dead end or was withdrawn.

4 minutes ago, Spatchcock said:

As for the judge... the whole way along, the Police and RIB expectations were that Judge Idiot would throw the charges out. Then they could appeal to a higher court and get a different judge who isn't a total nutjob. 

This stance may have changed more recently but we will see.

Why bother?  Why spend more taxpayers and industry money on appeal when if what you elude to is correct the RIB can achieve a similar outcome through their own Judicial process?

It is apparent that it has been a mess from the start and now it is a face saving exercise.  So presumably the RIB are relying on being Judge and Jury with a lower threshold of evidence required to rub some licensee's out.  If the evidence presented in Court wasn't enough to get a conviction then it shouldn't be enough for the RIB.  I'm guessing it will come down to the interpretation of who said what and what it means.  

[the galah]

Well  chief you could be asking,If the police surveillance evidence has nothing incriminating, then why are the defendants spending top $ in  the courts to have it excluded from a racing jurisdiction hearing?

[Unhinged]

Well i suppose they could replace them with tree branches. 

[Chief Stipe]

29 minutes ago, the galah said:

Well  chief you could be asking,If the police surveillance evidence has nothing incriminating, then why are the defendants spending top $ in  the courts to have it excluded from a racing jurisdiction hearing?

That's pretty obvious.  Having spent a considerable amount of money getting charges dropped in the Courts why would you want to relitigate it all again?  Especially in a Judicial system where the Judge and Jury are also the Prosecution?

[Gammalite]

24 minutes ago, Unhinged said:

Well i suppose they could replace them with tree branches. 

I remember thinking once or twice in the stewards room "These guys are tough as Teak" lol......so didn't bother giving much of my side of the story anyway half the time, apart from ALWAYS blame the horse, and not yourself or fellow drivers.  Wooden stewards have mind made up most of the time already anyway lol.... (racing incidents)

Once as a young fella in NZ , I said to the commentator in the stand at Alexandra park at a trials meeting he was calling the wrong horse in a trial. A different horse was running as the one named in the trial. Lo and Behold the next day at the stable I was working (up the road from the offending one which I often visited) a car load of stewards piled out of a car looking for me , and giving me a grilling . Being very young I just said " Mate i'm only a kid and don't know one horse from another properly yet. " The 'Sub' unnamed horse I did know in the trial , but nothing to do with me , I had dealt with him previously but was elsewhere now , and he came out and won ok at his next race start. 

Stewards obviously had to let it go as far as I was concerned and the case itself actually , but to this day I am impressed they took some action to investigate anything not in the honest realm , and keep everyone on the straight and narrow.  GOOD ON EM '!!!!!!! 

There's lots of criticism on these threads of RIU and stewards 'NOT doing there job, but what I have seen in NZ and Aus there's been 'Plenty' caught and fined , sus or DQ for improper practices .They can only go on What people tell them , and from evidence gathered. The saying is 'Cheaters Never Prosper" . they'll stumble eventually......

[Robalan]

According to the gist of most of the posts on this subject, Racing would be better without the Racing Integrity Unit. People like Anderson, McGrath, Alford and Kerr etc are just decent guys who made one slight mistake. I for one don't hold that view and I am very thankful for the work done by the staff of the RIU

[the galah]

46 minutes ago, Robalan said:

According to the gist of most of the posts on this subject, Racing would be better without the Racing Integrity Unit. People like Anderson, McGrath, Alford and Kerr etc are just decent guys who made one slight mistake. I for one don't hold that view and I am very thankful for the work done by the staff of the RIU

Those who criticise the RIU on here have loyalties to certain stables involved. Loyalty is a good characteristic for anyone to have,so there's nothing wrong with people criticising the RIU,where some doing the criticising  go wrong is they often ignore the evidence,and lose credibility when they do. Of course it can work both ways.

And when was the last time you heard of an owner changing trainers because their trainer had more than one positive. It doesn't happen.

I don't know why the chief seems to have strong feelings around the RIU,he seems to take on a grizz wylie type persona when attacking the RIU.Thats just the way he sees things and probably just reflects his actual character.

Besides,the louder the criticism there is towards the RIU,the more you know they are actually doing their job well. Its their  job to police the integrity side,and you don't make friends amongst those who transgress the rules.They just have to be respectful in how they handle the  individuals involved. And that has to work both ways as well.

Finally,if people are knowingly consistently breaking the rules then they have to be man enough to take the punishment that comes if they get caught.For some it seems they put themselves through hell,when the reality is better to just accept they got it wrong and deal with that.It may be a big thing for them when they get caught,but really they need to get their heads round the possible consequences before they undertake actions that break the rules.

[Chief Stipe]

58 minutes ago, Robalan said:

According to the gist of most of the posts on this subject, Racing would be better without the Racing Integrity Unit. People like Anderson, McGrath, Alford and Kerr etc are just decent guys who made one slight mistake. I for one don't hold that view and I am very thankful for the work done by the staff of the RIU

Then you are getting the wrong gist.  I don't see where anyone has said Racing would be better off without the RIB (RIU).  Where posters differ is that they disagree with you that they are doing a great job.  In my opinion they aren't and could do a lot better.  No one has said that the people you list are "great guys".

Let's look at those four people:

1. Alford - done for administering a prohibited substance on raceday.  The RIU were tipped off and caught Alford in the act.  He was seen to and admitted administering formalin by injection and an alkalising substance by gastric tubing.  Fair cop.  All the embellishment aside it is arguable that formalin is a PED - it does have some medicinal properties that prevent and stop EIPH (lung bleeding).  Disqualified for 7 years.
2. McGrath - again done for administering a prohibited substance on raceday.  Again the RIU were tipped off and went into covert surveillance mode.  The evidence was circumstantial that he used a gastric tube to administer a prohibited substance.  McGrath aggravated the situation by not co-operating with the investigators.  Although no tests were done or rather were able to be done the JCA concluded that he was attempting to use an alkalising substance.  He got an 8 year disqualification.  A fair cop.  As with the Alford case it raises questions about the efficacy of the RIB swabbing regime.
3. Anderson - he was done for supplying fellow horsemen the party drug MDMA - namely Ecstacy.  A very common party drug.  This was collateral damage from operation INCA i.e. wasn't the initial intent of that Police investigation nor the RIU.  Anderson was discharge without conviction in Court and subsequently was done by the vague but all encompassing Harness Rule 1001.  Nothing to do Harness Racing per se.  Effectively the RIU/JCA (now combined into the RIB) punished him more than the Police/Court system did.  Arguably the pressure put on him by the usual ex-cop RIU staff contributed to his subsequent criminal charge.  In my opinion this action diminished the standing of the RIU.  6 month disqualification for the Party Drug supply conviction and hasn't to this date been licensed again.  Now that is a HRNZ issue not the RIB.
4. Kerr - done for over selling shares and insurance in a horse(s).  The RIB charged him under Rule 1001 - that he committed dishonest or fraudulent acts connected with harness racing.  Disqualified for life.  In my opinion this is a weakness in the Harness Racing NZ systems.  No excuse for Kerr to commit fraud but it isn't the first time this has happened and unless the ownership recording systems are updated it will happen again. 

So looking at the evidence of the RIB doing a "great job" - in all four cases they were late to the party.  One case wasn't even their cop - they just handed down a harsh penalty when a higher court didn't.  The last case was a criminal case yet in this instance they either didn't refer it to or wait for the higher jurisdiction - I guess they wanted to get the kill on their rap sheet!!

Meanwhile social media are openly attacking leading stables for allegedly doping their horses and the RIB remains silent.  Apparently the use of EPO is rife yet the RIB and their testing systems can't find anything.  That's incompetence on a number of levels.  What's more they haven't done anything publicly to dispel the rumours yet their new CEO has publicly stated in the media in response to the Sir Mark Todd beat up that whips should be banned from racing!!!  FFS since when did the CEO of the RIB make or comment on racing rules?  He is there to enforce the rules NOT create them!!!

Not only enforce the rules but enforce them consistently.  The RIB fails miserably in both easy tasks.

Further have we seen any positive personnel changes at the RIB since it was created?  We've seen the hiring of new Stipendiary Stewards who have no racing background at all and who in less than 18 months Chair or Head the race day inquiry system!!!  

Nor have we seen any positive action on resolving the issue of drug positives from environmental contamination nor the promised re-evaluation of medications that are good for horse welfare vs their mis-classification as PED's!!!