Michael Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 15 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Do you know they won't start? Are you stating that all the horses that won the NZ Cup off the front (does second row count?) when it was a handicap were bunnies? No I don’t know, that’s why I said “if” No I’m not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 12 hours ago, Gammalite said: I'll retract the comment of 'level playing field 'in that case and REWORD it to , Handicaps are designed to give an even chance of winning, to as many runners as possible ?? how does that sit ? whether it be at the gallops or at the trots. p.s Handicappers do a sterling Job !! I applied for the QLD handicapper job but another more recently retired Trainer got the position unfortunately. perhaps I had too much weed lol........ But this proposal isn’t a Handicap based on a horse’s overall record is it? Its not even a Handicap where the Handicapper has any input is it? Its merely a set penalty for winning certain races, and the stupid thing is a Messenger winner gets a penalty whereas a Miracle Mile winner and a NZ FFA winner don’t (yes I know you feel the distance of said races is a factor) As you have stayed we are allowed our opinions and mine is the Cup should bot be a Handicap Im surprised you didn’t get the job but you’re confusing me, one post says you don’t smoke weed and this post says you smoked too much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 41 minutes ago, Doomed said: It never had a position of strength in the NI. Well I did find some North Islanders that went close. (but didn't win the Nz Cup) and as you said earlier Delightful Lady (one of the 11 NZ Trotting Hall of Famers) used to perform with distinction. and had the North Island crowds entertained in the early 80's. In the 90's Mark Purdon started training and his family still winning with Chokin and Christpher Vance, Mark Hanover in the Interdominion. Maybe it all went Quiet when Mark shifted to South Island ? Decline in progress ? by the time ELSU came along for the Butcher family in 2000's ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 15 minutes ago, Michael said: But this proposal isn’t a Handicap based on a horse’s overall record is it? Its not even a Handicap where the Handicapper has any input is it? Its merely a set penalty for winning certain races, and the stupid thing is a Messenger winner gets a penalty whereas a Miracle Mile winner and a NZ FFA winner don’t (yes I know you feel the distance of said races is a factor) As you have stayed we are allowed our opinions and mine is the Cup should bot be a Handicap Im surprised you didn’t get the job but you’re confusing me, one post says you don’t smoke weed and this post says you smoked too much All fair comment Mikey . sorry forgot to write ( humor Michael) near the weed comment for your benefit so you didn't get confused again lol..... The distance of races is a MAJOR factor IMO. how can the trotters keep up with Sundees Son trotting 3.56 for the 2 miles in the Dominion Non-handicap last year. ? Tony has Bolt for Brilliance trotting a sensational 4.00 minutes this year . What about the rest? They can't trot that quick. Why take them on off the front and flatten your horse. ? I wouldn't ....I'd head to Australia like Majestic Man did. Better if Sundee (after winning Rowes and Dominions) off 20m and Bolt (after winning Rowe) off 10m this year. It is VERY HARD to Train a Horse to COMPETE with them (Bolt and Sundee) Off LEVEL marks. I saw a pole on another site and 'BRING BACK the HANDICAPS' to have more Competitive racing Won the vote. ! Booyah !! the majority can't be wrong shirly...... good smart kiwis. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomed Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 1 hour ago, Gammalite said: Well I did find some North Islanders that went close. (but didn't win the Nz Cup) and as you said earlier Delightful Lady (one of the 11 NZ Trotting Hall of Famers) used to perform with distinction. and had the North Island crowds entertained in the early 80's. In the 90's Mark Purdon started training and his family still winning with Chokin and Christpher Vance, Mark Hanover in the Interdominion. Maybe it all went Quiet when Mark shifted to South Island ? Decline in progress ? by the time ELSU came along for the Butcher family in 2000's ? Dillon Dale was my great hope from the north. I had him at great odds when it took a freakish performance from Inky Lord to beat him. I have a feeling he may have been placed a couple of times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 1 hour ago, Gammalite said: All fair comment Mikey . sorry forgot to write ( humor Michael) near the weed comment for your benefit so you didn't get confused again lol..... The distance of races is a MAJOR factor IMO. how can the trotters keep up with Sundees Son trotting 3.56 for the 2 miles in the Dominion Non-handicap last year. ? Tony has Bolt for Brilliance trotting a sensational 4.00 minutes this year . What about the rest? They can't trot that quick. Why take them on off the front and flatten your horse. ? I wouldn't ....I'd head to Australia like Majestic Man did. Better if Sundee (after winning Rowes and Dominions) off 20m and Bolt (after winning Rowe) off 10m this year. It is VERY HARD to Train a Horse to COMPETE with them (Bolt and Sundee) Off LEVEL marks. I saw a pole on another site and 'BRING BACK the HANDICAPS' to have more Competitive racing Won the vote. ! Booyah !! the majority can't be wrong shirly...... good smart kiwis. Have to disagree again sorry Gammalite Firstly, I'm not confused, I jest, ok? Secondly I wouldn't take them on either but I still don't think the answer is to penalise the better horses in what is effectively thw NZ Championships over 2 miles. I mean, we don't penalise the Crusaders do we? Yes, the majority can be wrong because those voting are users of social media sites like this one so they are probably all Australians or the more thicker Kiwis (including me) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted July 29, 2022 Author Share Posted July 29, 2022 16 hours ago, Brodie said: Where is “The Spitfire” racing not the same! in cottonwool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted July 29, 2022 Author Share Posted July 29, 2022 2 hours ago, Doomed said: Dillon Dale was my great hope from the north. I had him at great odds when it took a freakish performance from Inky Lord to beat him. I have a feeling he may have been placed a couple of times. Dean on that occasion. Both multiple Group 1 winners, both placed in the Cup and both won NZ FFA 3 days later. Probably the best horse their respective sires left. Well done Birdie. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 Well with a lot of people saying the Great Race , and AKLD Cup and Rowe Cup and Dominion. should all be won by the Best Horse every year. WHy ??????? shouldn't every horse be a chance if they start in a race ? Isn't that the whole idea of having Ratings ? and Class ratings. and having a Handicapper. Not to mention the fine TRADITION of these great races. I think the general public and punters would enjoy the racing more than just a procession behind 2 horses ?? , and wouldn't think anything less of the race if Copy That sulked and stayed home (or Self Assured, or Bolt or Sundee ) from those BIG 4 races. Who enjoyed the 8 horse Rowe Cup? who enjoyed Self Assured Akld Cup ? I'm a harness racing SUPPORTER full on , and didn't bet and didn't even watch those 2 races recently . (swear that's true) They were just a Self Assured and Sundees Son benefit. Yeah I know .... TonyH spoiled the 'Dunn Sundee' Rowe Cup party with 'Bolt' , but I wouldn't of backed him to do that lol... well done to SA and BOLT on those 2 great wins. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 The NZ Trotting Cup was always a Handicap and a damn sight more interesting than it is now. The biggest betting race in OZ and NZ is a handicap run 7 days before the NZ Trotting Cup. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 41 minutes ago, Rangatira said: Dean on that occasion. Both multiple Group 1 winners, both placed in the Cup and both won NZ FFA 3 days later. Probably the best horse their respective sires left. Well done Birdie. Didn't get to see Dillon Dean, but I had a great experience for a year or so helping out a trainer Brian Pretious at Takanini , with Dillon Dale who was recovering from bad legs that side-lined him for about 2 years after Gary Hillier had won a few young horse races with him. Jogged him on his own away from the other Birdie foals Double Birdie and Birdie Twice that were racing at that time. (BIRDIE's earlier foals). Was thrilled to bits when Don Dwyer came along and nearly stole the NZ Cup with Dillon Dale ,that sadly was marred by a big Fall. In the FFA as you say Dillon Dale powered to victory ! Gammalite was in that race and a battling 6th. Gammalite also battling 6th in that Nz Cup behind Camelot, coming off a 30m Handicap !!!! who the f..k puts handicaps in these big races to stop the best from Winning !!!!!???? lol...... should be banned lol. (don't tell Mikey) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 1 hour ago, Gammalite said: Well with a lot of people saying the Great Race , and AKLD Cup and Rowe Cup and Dominion. should all be won by the Best Horse every year. WHy ??????? shouldn't every horse be a chance if they start in a race ? Isn't that the whole idea of having Ratings ? and Class ratings. and having a Handicapper. Not to mention the fine TRADITION of these great races. No, every horse should be a chance in some races Not the Cups They are to "find the best", not to hand out like Ribbons (to quote Copy That's Trainer) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: The NZ Trotting Cup was always a Handicap and a damn sight more interesting than it is now. The biggest betting race in OZ and NZ is a handicap run 7 days before the NZ Trotting Cup. Yes it is, but quoting one-off quirks do little to enhance your ideas Let's just leave it shall we, because you aren't adding anything new In fact all you look like you're doing is disagreeing with me, a bit like you accuse me of doing with Brodie I think the Cup should be won by the best horse(s) off level marks, and I care that the 3 best horses in Australasia start in the Cup Gammalite disagrees and thinks there should be handicaps so every horse can have a turn and he doesn't think anyone cares if the 3 best horses don't line up in the Cup Edited July 29, 2022 by Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 1 minute ago, Michael said: Yes it is, but quoting one-off quirks do little to enhance your ideas Let's just leave it shall we? I think the Cup should be won bu the best horse(s) off level marks, and I care that the 3 best horses in Australasia start in the Cup Gammalite disagrees and thinks there should be handicaps so every horse can have a turn and he doesn't think anyone cares if the 3 best horses don't line up in the Cup Then have a FFA 2 mile race!!! But why can't the NZ Trotting Cup revert back to the handicap race it once was? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Then have a FFA 2 mile race!!! But why can't the NZ Trotting Cup revert back to the handicap race it once was? FFS, have a 2 mile Handicap whenever you want You just can't read can you? My opinion, which I'm told we are allowed, is that the Cup should be won by the best horse on the day, not the best handicapped horse. It's pointless debating with morons (you, not Gammalite) because I predict wiser heads will prevail and the ridiculous suggestion made I'm told with no T/O analysis to back it up will be quietly shelved To look at specifics, do you think a Miracle Mile winner and a NZ FFA winner deserve a 10m head start from a Messenger winner? Because that's the scaenario as proposed Edited July 29, 2022 by Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 4 minutes ago, Michael said: You just can't read can you? My opinion, which I'm told we are allowed, is that the Cup should be won by the best horse on the day, not the best handicapped horse. FFS it WAS historically a handicap race!!!!! What was wrong with that? What you fail to recognise is that the stakes money for racing should come from what is punted on the race. I realise you favour the pokies alternative sources of revenue. How much turnover would you see if Cardigan Bay drew 1 on the front line paying 1.01? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: FFS it WAS historically a handicap race!!!!! What was wrong with that? What you fail to recognise is that the stakes money for racing should come from what is punted on the race. I realise you favour the pokies alternative sources of revenue. How much turnover would you see if Cardigan Bay drew 1 on the front line paying 1.01? Again, I prefer level marks. Others must have to, as it was altered wasn't it? Don't be so thick, you must know all pokie money now goes to fund the RIU or JCA or whatever acronym you prefer Cardigan Bay would be off the Front if he hadn't won one of the "special" races they listed wouldn't he? Or are you proposing a new change based on potential now? Edited July 29, 2022 by Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackie Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 I like the idea of mobile starts, maybe with preferential draws , with ‘worse’ draws given to the winners of those races. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 25 minutes ago, Michael said: My opinion, which I'm told we are allowed, is that the Cup should be won by the best horse on the day, not the best handicapped horse. I was trying to re-assure you Mikey , that it has been in general Won by the Best horse on the Day. for hundred years. We did find about 5 champions who only just missed out. 39 minutes ago, Michael said: Gammalite disagrees and thinks there should be handicaps so every horse can have a turn and he doesn't think anyone cares if the 3 best horses don't line up in the Cup Well yes , true.... I love horses having 'turns' in general. And what happened to supporting the Underdog ? A LOT of hours and effort go into preparing those runners too . There are some great people involved. and very nice horses. They (people with other Cup horses and Punters) probably won't mind if Aussie 'Majestic Cruiser' doesn't turn up . Why not invite back 'TURN IT UP' and 'Spirit of StLouis' and 'Alta Orlando' instead?. Owned in NZ and all . there's plenty of kiwi owned lovely horses around the place. Even my beloved QLDer Blacks A Fake and also I'm TheMightyQuinn both dominated the Interdominion Grand Final for an 8 year stretch from 2006 - 2013. 7 wins between them !!! amazing. but that's just too much.!! Really it would of been better for 8 DIFFERENT WINNERS over that time frame of 8 years instead of just 3 Lucky owners IMO. I know !!! bring back the Interdominion Handicap !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 (edited) I was trying to re-assure you Mikey , that it has been in general Won by the Best horse on the Day. for hundred years. We did find about 5 champions who only just missed out. I'm not reassured Gammalite, I don't agree Gammalite. I think that Delightful Lady was the best horse on her NZ Cup Day, but Hands Down Beat her with a 15m head start I know !!! bring back the Interdominion Handicap !!! Is the mobile InterDominion Final run from a PBD? Even my beloved QLDer Blacks A Fake and also I'm TheMightyQuinn both dominated the Interdominion Grand Final for an 8 year stretch from 2006 - 2013. 7 wins between them !!! amazing. but that's just too much.!! Really it would of been better for 8 DIFFERENT WINNERS over that time frame of 8 years instead of just 3 Lucky owners IMO. So yet again you're telling me that you pefer that the best horse doesn't win. To be blunt Gamma, you are sounding more like a Communist with every post Edited July 29, 2022 by Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 1 minute ago, Michael said: I was trying to re-assure you Mikey , that it has been in general Won by the Best horse on the Day. for hundred years. We did find about 5 champions who only just missed out. I'm not reassured Gammalite, I don't agree Gammalite. I think that Delightful Lady was the best horse on her NZ Cup Day, but Hands Down Beat her with a 15m head start I know !!! bring back the Interdominion Handicap !!! Is the mobile InterDominion Final run from a PBD? Don't think so , it's a random draw in the Interdom Grand Final usually , for the 12 or so highest point scorers from the heats still. Yeah that was some race. ! Delightful Lady one of the best I ever seen. her handicap was tough Hands Down was tough too. I believe she had a little gallop as well which didn't help. Camelot lucky too to win his NZ Cup? with Gammalite way back on 30m . fricken #&^%#*#@ handicaps !!!!. I'm convinced he wins off the front and the VERY LUCKY Camelot doesn't get the spoils !!! .....lol...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: Then have a FFA 2 mile race!!! But why can't the NZ Trotting Cup revert back to the handicap race it once was? Geez I am missing Michael’s posts! Not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 35 minutes ago, Michael said: So yet again you're telling me that you pefer that the best horse doesn't win. To be blunt Gamma, you are sounding more like a Communist with every post Not quite sure what communism has to do with anything. But I'm telling you YET AGAIN , the Best horse usually does Win the Nz Cup !!! The Honour role is tremendous. My 'Communist' self would of preferred that instead of False Step winning 3 Cups, beating Caduceus on 2 occasions that he got one as well. And ELSU instead of 2 x second to Just An Excuse , had one each. 2 champs just missed out ?. perhaps the debateable 'best' horse didn't win. False Step and Just An Excuse came off HANDICAPS to win their 2nd Cups , as did Il Vicolo and Flashing Red in more recent times , so they probably ALL deserved it ,as in having to work around the field. ......but is Not my communist preference. (actually that goes in any sport) RIP Karl Marx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 2 hours ago, Gammalite said: Don't think so , it's a random draw in the Interdom Grand Final usually , for the 12 or so highest point scorers from the heats still. Gamma, it was a rhetorical wuestion Facetious even i was merely pointing out that the ID Final was a FFA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Brodie said: Geez I am missing Michael’s posts! Not! No one cares Brodie Of your last 70 posts 32 are about the vaccine and 17 the Government Pergg gf aps if you weren’t so repetitive there would be more than 11 posters Edited July 29, 2022 by Michael 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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