Kopia Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 23 hours ago, Rowley Mile said: Kopia, you have a stallion over there called Dalghar....he ran 1-18 for 1400 at Longchamp, now in all reality do you think Winx could run 1-17 and change to beat that......please, Winx is a great mare, far better than what's lining up to beat her, but you may be too young to remember horses like Kingston Town and Manikato.....she wouldn't beat them, and as for going overseas, did you do an OE Kopia? if you did then you will be a better person for it......going overseas maketh the man/ woman you see....so too the beast.....and shuts up any debate once the victor........please digest. I do remember those horses.....and she would have beaten them both, in my opinion. Have a look at her after she raced last Saturday....when she was walking around before the rug was put on her. First time I've seen sweat up over saddle like that. I think there's huge improvement in her after that run. I don't care who the opposition is...in australia....she's head and shoulders above them. And Dalghar might have been a top racehorse-but lets see him run those times at Rosehill/Randwick/Flemington... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowley Mile Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 8 hours ago, wally said: good old kingston town did he ever win at the best track in aust flemington Did Winx ever win in Perth?......the Black horse did, he wasn't afraid to travel.....even back then. easy float trips don't count.....so many great Oz and NZ horses hopped on planes and travelled long distances, their connections wanted to see them against the best...on neutral ground......poor old Winx, because of the protection by her closeted camp, we shall never know shall we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowley Mile Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 7 hours ago, Kopia said: I do remember those horses.....and she would have beaten them both, in my opinion. Have a look at her after she raced last Saturday....when she was walking around before the rug was put on her. First time I've seen sweat up over saddle like that. I think there's huge improvement in her after that run. I don't care who the opposition is...in australia....she's head and shoulders above them. And Dalghar might have been a top racehorse-but lets see him run those times at Rosehill/Randwick/Flemington... Oh geez my ribs are hurting, Dalghar's speed was amazing, Winx running 1-17.....oh yeah......she couldn't run anywhere near that...even down a well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowley Mile Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Ask Brent Thompson if Winx would have beaten Dulcify over 2000m at WFA.......Dulcify broke Shivarree's heart.......Dulcify was off this planet.....the best 3yo I've ever seen......and I've seen a few. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 13 hours ago, Rowley Mile said: Did Winx ever win in Perth?......the Black horse did, he wasn't afraid to travel.....even back then. easy float trips don't count.....so many great Oz and NZ horses hopped on planes and travelled long distances, their connections wanted to see them against the best...on neutral ground......poor old Winx, because of the protection by her closeted camp, we shall never know shall we? so what your saying rowley as she hasnt traveled to perth shes not as good one could reverse that and say did kingston town ever win at the sunshine coast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowley Mile Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 1 hour ago, wally said: so what your saying rowley as she hasnt traveled to perth shes not as good one could reverse that and say did kingston town ever win at the sunshine coast C'mon Wally, you didn't get that 'Monika' by accident now did you........KT and so many great horses travelled.....they got their boarding passes and took on the world......this mare is protected, she's a glass bottom champion and that's a bloody shame......Horlicks went to Japan and ran a world record, now, she was a champion.....once again, Winx wouldn't run 2-24 for a mile and half.......maybe she would, but hey, Horlicks ran that time...or was it 2-22? in Japan, against the best.......Sunline ran time all the time, against the best here and there...Hong Kong,... against the best.....unless you do that it's all summation then isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Rowley Mile said: C'mon Wally, you didn't get that 'Monika' by accident now did you........KT and so many great horses travelled.....they got their boarding passes and took on the world......this mare is protected, she's a glass bottom champion and that's a bloody shame......Horlicks went to Japan and ran a world record, now, she was a champion.....once again, Winx wouldn't run 2-24 for a mile and half.......maybe she would, but hey, Horlicks ran that time...or was it 2-22? in Japan, against the best.......Sunline ran time all the time, against the best here and there...Hong Kong,... against the best.....unless you do that it's all summation then isn't it? again what your trying to say kingston town is far superior than winx as he traveled to perth to beat a crap field i suppose if waller takes winx to darwin for next years cup she will be superior than kt as she traveled further Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowley Mile Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Oh God, shoot me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 10 minutes ago, Rowley Mile said: Oh God, shoot me. winx melb race record i think 5 out of 5 kt 5 out of 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 32 minutes ago, Rowley Mile said: Oh God, shoot me. oh and i suppose winx holding the track record at mv means nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) well i suppose ill give in and say takeover target was the greatest group 1wins in five different states in aust plus 3 group 1 wins in singapore japan and uk lol Edited August 20, 2018 by wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowley Mile Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Wally, you miss the point mate, it's through to the keeper.....it's not about who's the greatest...it's about the criteria for making comments like that........if you have a horse that's a contender and you travel and win, then you are no longer the contender, you're the bloody champion! Imagine if the mighty Muhammed Ali didn't travel, just stayed in the States and beat up whoever, we would never have had the Rumble In The Jungle, The Thriller In Manilla......imagine if the All Blacks didn't go to the RWC..they just stayed in NZ and beat up whoever ventured to Kiwiland.....unless you go and take on the best you are a contender.......and therefore your honour, I rest my case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 2 hours ago, Rowley Mile said: Wally, you miss the point mate, it's through to the keeper.....it's not about who's the greatest...it's about the criteria for making comments like that........if you have a horse that's a contender and you travel and win, then you are no longer the contender, you're the bloody champion! Imagine if the mighty Muhammed Ali didn't travel, just stayed in the States and beat up whoever, we would never have had the Rumble In The Jungle, The Thriller In Manilla......imagine if the All Blacks didn't go to the RWC..they just stayed in NZ and beat up whoever ventured to Kiwiland.....unless you go and take on the best you are a contender.......and therefore your honour, I rest my case. well therefore you cant put kt in that bracket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 50 minutes ago, wally said: well therefore you cant put kt in that bracket Nor Frankel you’ve got to hop on a plane and travel Lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 This debate seems very similar to one I remember labelled "Black Sardine"....... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said: This debate seems very similar to one I remember labelled "Black Sardine"....... yep but she travelled and still holds a track record Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowley Mile Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 35 minutes ago, Ghost said: Nor Frankel you’ve got to hop on a plane and travel Lol Just a tad different for the Europeans no?......they whip across to the States for the Breeders Cup etc etc.......but there are so many Gr1 classics on their door step.......France and UK separated by a tunnel.......also Frankel is the most valuable horse in the world, or was......for a mare to go there and win, Black Caviar is to be saluted as in the wonderful Alinghi of the FBI.......Boastings easy, but those horses that went and conquered wear their medals proudly...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopia Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 57 minutes ago, Rowley Mile said: Just a tad different for the Europeans no?......they whip across to the States for the Breeders Cup etc etc.......but there are so many Gr1 classics on their door step.......France and UK separated by a tunnel.......also Frankel is the most valuable horse in the world, or was......for a mare to go there and win, Black Caviar is to be saluted as in the wonderful Alinghi of the FBI.......Boastings easy, but those horses that went and conquered wear their medals proudly...... I think it comes down to personal preferences..we all have an opinion about horses and we all have our own criteria about what makes a 'champion'...Until Winx started her amazing sequence of wins, 3 Cox Plates ( and a 4th will happen too ) I thought Sunline was the best horse I ever saw. She was a real 'bull' if you can call a mare that...however comparing Sunlines Cox Plate times to Winx's..well, Winx wins by about 12 lengths... It would be interesting to see a Cox Plate with a horse/mare like Sunline in her 100% top form leading into the home straight by several lengths...could she be beaten by Winx ? No question, Winx would come home faster and the others would get the wobbles. At the moment there is no horse racing in Australia/NZ who could do that to Winx. Or anywhere else?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefton Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Simply because of the way trainers operate now you cannot compare horses of different eras. Had a horse like Phar Lap won two Melbourne Cups would he have got in with as luxury a weight as Makye Diva the third time? Would he have had the track watered to suit him? Would Winx and/or Black Caviar have handled the multiple hard races that Phar Lap/Rising Fast and even Balmerino/Kingston Town/Sunline used to cop? Would they handle the travel the likes of Balmerino/Bonecrusher/Horlicks/Sunline were asked to undertake? Would they have been brought back from the breakdowns that Kingston Town/ Manikato/Show Gate experienced?(probably not to be fair as mares). Would they have handled the vast array of distances and handicap racing that those earlier horses(and even Show Gate) were expected to deal with? Would those earlier horses have got the favourable barrier treatment that today's 'champions' get (their own personal barrier attendant I see for both BC and Winx). But equally those latter two have carried all before them, produced extraordinary unbeaten streaks and have really kept racing in the limelight over the last five years. God knows we need something positive (even in Aussie) to gee the game up. One thing those latter two have proved is what deadset champion trainers they each had. The horse doesn't know it is on a record winning streak but the Trainer can never lose sight of that. We are bloody lucky to have seen those two horses in the last few years and indeed the many Champions in the last forty to forty five seasons. Personally the durability and take on all comers way they used to train(plus probably nostalgia) makes the older horses the preference but their records suggest the latter two could not have done more to deserve the champion title. But they are certainly carefully managed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Reefton I don't disagree that each of those horses you mention were champions. However the passage of time sometimes embellishes our memories. Take Kingston Town for instance you mention the number of "hard races" that he and others used to cop as if to say that Winx's has had a softer passage to greatness. I don't agree. In my opinion the last 26 races that Winx has won have not been "easy races." I wouldn't have minded owning anyone of the horses she has beaten (even Consensus!). She has so far raced 36 times for 30 wins and 3 places. Kingston Town's record was 41 races, 30 wins and 7 places. Not all of his race wins were "hard." Winx can only beat what turns up and if I had a good horse I'm not sure I would want to break his or her heart by pitching up to beat her. Hartnell springs to mind in that regard. As for Winx "not travelling" you forget that in those days the "big money" was overseas. Why travel when you can amass more than AUS$20m in stakes? Why take the risks? Yes Horlicks and Sunline travelled - they had to afterall they were NZ based. Kingston Town didn't like travelling much out of Sydney! I agree with your comment that Waller is a champion trainer. I don't believe that Winx is as easy to train and keep sound as her race record suggests. Racing the Sydney way round her action doesn't look right but I guess it could be her style and it certainly seems to work. Her sectionals on a wide range of tracks are phenomenal. What impresses me most about Winx is her race smarts. I know some retired jockeys will jump up and down when I say this but Hughie seems to only be on for the ride. She knows where the winning post is and seems to ignore the jockey nearly all of the time. Judging by how she sweated up after the Warwick Stakes when she ran 1:22.5 after a 32 second last 600m against the bias I'd say we have yet to see the best of her. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Form guru Gary Crispe says super Winx can get even better RAY THOMAS, The Daily Telegraph August 20, 2018 9:39pm CHAMPION Winx has been unbeatable for over three years — but maybe the best is yet to come. Form guru Gary Crispe said it is conceivable Winx could still be improving after her outstanding return to racing at Royal Randwick last Saturday. Sydney’s super mare scored her 26th consecutive win — a national record — when she won the race named in her honour, the Group 1 $500,000 Winx Stakes (1400m). Crispe analysed Winx’s win and has revealed the great mare returned a Timeform rating of 126, which is her second highest figure for a 1400m race. “I think this was one of Winx’s best first-up wins, certainly one of her best over the distance,’’ Crispe said. “There was a definite track bias to the inside last Saturday where the likes of (runner-up) Invictus Prince and others came through which only added to the merit of Winx’s effort.’’ Crispe revealed the highest Timeform rating Winx has returned at 1400m was her 128 rating after winning the Apollo Stakes last year. “Winx used that win to springboard to her peak Timeform rating of 134 in the George Ryder Stakes last year when she defeated Le Romain and Chautauqua by more than seven lengths,’’ Crispe said. Hugh Bowman and Winx take out the Winx Stakes in sensational style on Saturday. Picture: Getty Images “She also went to a 134 rating winning the Queen Elizabeth Stakes earlier this year so the evidence is there that she is still racing at a very high level.’’ Trainer Chris Waller said after Winx’s win last Saturday that there was still improvement in the great mare fitness-wise, which suggests she is in for another dominant spring campaign. Crispe said although Winx is now a seven-year-old she is capable of improving her peak Timeform rating of 134 and move closer to legends Kingston Town (137) and Black Caviar (136). Jockey Hugh Bowman returns to scale after guiding home Winx to her 26th consecutive win. “I think anything is possible with Winx. You can’t underestimate her,’’ Crispe said. “Even though she is a seven-year-old mare she could still be improving.’’ Waller doesn’t want to over-race Winx this spring, suggesting she will be restricted to just four races culminating with the $5 million Cox Plate on October 27. Winx may not race again for a month with Waller nominating her next run as likely to be the Group 1 $500,000 George Main Stakes (1600m) at Royal Randwick on September 15. If Winx wins the George Main, it will be her eighth consecutive Group 1 win, equalling Black Caviar’s record or successive major race wins. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefton Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Reefton I don't disagree that each of those horses you mention were champions. However the passage of time sometimes embellishes our memories. Take Kingston Town for instance you mention the number of "hard races" that he and others used to cop as if to say that Winx's has had a softer passage to greatness. I don't agree. In my opinion the last 26 races that Winx has won have not been "easy races." I wouldn't have minded owning anyone of the horses she has beaten (even Consensus!). She has so far raced 36 times for 30 wins and 3 places. Kingston Town's record was 41 races, 30 wins and 7 places. Not all of his race wins were "hard." Winx can only beat what turns up and if I had a good horse I'm not sure I would want to break his or her heart by pitching up to beat her. Hartnell springs to mind in that regard. As for Winx "not travelling" you forget that in those days the "big money" was overseas. Why travel when you can amass more than AUS$20m in stakes? Why take the risks? Yes Horlicks and Sunline travelled - they had to afterall they were NZ based. Kingston Town didn't like travelling much out of Sydney! I agree with your comment that Waller is a champion trainer. I don't believe that Winx is as easy to train and keep sound as her race record suggests. Racing the Sydney way round her action doesn't look right but I guess it could be her style and it certainly seems to work. Her sectionals on a wide range of tracks are phenomenal. What impresses me most about Winx is her race smarts. I know some retired jockeys will jump up and down when I say this but Hughie seems to only be on for the ride. She knows where the winning post is and seems to ignore the jockey nearly all of the time. Judging by how she sweated up after the Warwick Stakes when she ran 1:22.5 after a 32 second last 600m against the bias I'd say we have yet to see the best of her. All good! Run her in the Melbourne Cup 10 days after the Cox Plate then. No? Well that illustrates the point I make. Tommy Smith never spared him(even as a three year old winning the AJC Derby then the Sydney Cup), broke him down twice and he still kept coming back(albeit clearly nowhere near the horse he was). As I said impossible to compare champions of different eras and I am not decrying Winx here but the old time test of a champion was to take on all comers at all distances, handicaps and weight for age carrying massive weights and still winning. Simply because of the way she is trained(and rightly so) Winx and or BC are never going to attain those accomplishments. To be fair Kingston Town did not win the Melbourne Cup but it took a good one with a great run in the race to beat him(not unlike Show Gate in the Wellington Cup) and Kingston Town won the Sydney Cup as a three year old(as did Balmerino in the Brisbane Cup) As for travel well I agree there is good money to be made in Aussie but because of a decision made by her trainer(and that is his and the owner's prerogative) she has never traveled outside Aussie - what Sunline did to go to Hong Kong and Dubai was astounding in hindsight. Balmerino being a stallion was at an advantage comparatively but with his travel schedule it is no wonder he went sour in his second season in Europe. Anyway all I am saying is it is my opinion. What really concerns me is these clearly special allowances these great mares get - personal barrier attendants and special watering of Flemington(for Mayke Diva). That's like the All Blacks picking their own ref all the time. Kawi of course is an NZ equivalent(if not a champion) who got favours when it came to the starting gates. Our horse (Consensus) being one badly disadvantaged but having to stand there waiting for that prima donna to deign to enter his gate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 I heard that Kingston Town used to have special barrier privileges is that not correct? TJ is like Gai - they either survive the training regime or they break down and don't race. I believe the racing is more consistent and harder now than it was in the era of the champions you mention. Well in Australia. NZ it is the opposite! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefton Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: I heard that Kingston Town used to have special barrier privileges is that not correct? Not as far as I know. And they didn't water tracks then either(despite his dicky legs) He was an amazing horse that Kingston Town(as is Winx and Black Caviar) and it is amazing to have lived in an era when he raced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashoka Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Great Horses... I don't recall Kingston Town being given special barrier privileges on any occasion. Perhaps, when "the accurate one" states in a Cox Plate commentary "...Winx can't win", and she does, then...what...can't happen? Well, I guess we'll never know whatever it is that this discussion is about. All the best. Ashoka 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.