Can Harness Racing afford these Premiere meetings at the moment??

[Brodie]

The question just needs to be asked!

Can Harness Racing afford to be running these Premiere meetings with such stakes currently?

We now know that the distribution from The NZ TAB is going to be less for next season and therefore stakes will need to drop!

There is absolutely no point in dipping into any reserves to keep the stakes next season the same as this one!

Most know that there are just so many meetings that are a total drain on the coffers of harness racing, Auckland being probably the main culprit and it is not going to improve!!!!

Yesterdays Premiere meeting would be a helluva big loss financially for harness racing, as there is no way on earth the turnover would enable those stakes to be paid!!

The fact is that we all know that the majority of the big stake money is going to the same owners from the blue and Silver barn, which is must not beneficial to keeping the industry healthy.

There is no way that the Invercargill Cup should be $100k, as it is going to have a small field of AllStars, Telfer and Dunn horses and stuff the rest!

The ones who are currently in charge of the decision making at the TAB and HRNZ need to WAKE UP and make correct decisions now, or there just will not be a viable harness racing business in NZ in 5 years time!!!

Many live in LaLa land and need to open their eyes and start earning their large remunerations!!!!!!

There  needs to be accountability but all we see is same old same old, and unfortunately this is going to be the downfall of harness racing .

We need to entice new people into the industry, but this is just not happening unfortunately!

TAB is trying to dissuade punters from wagering and would rather give away free bets to certain punters, where this is not making them anything!

Some they give away free bets to and others they wont let them bet, GO FIGURE!!!!

 

[Honestjohn]

Don't forget the cheats as well,  it puts me off,  even though I get "free" bets via texts.  I have stopped betting on the trots.  As you say like yesterday all the big money going to one barn.  Once the one I'm involved with is done I'm done with the trots.  I'll try a galloper.  

 

Hj

[the galah]

Some good and relevant observations made above.

I know the average industry grass roots participant would see yesterdays meeting as proof they have no chance of ever competing with the big players like the all stars and the telfers,when it comes to the pacers.

You can ignore the point,but reality is ignoring it won't make it irrelevant nor will it make it go away. It has to be addressed in some way.

It looks like they paid out over $150,000 in stakes to the horses who didn't finish in the top 4.

i don't know whether they still charge nomination fees for such races,but it sure seems a lot of money they elect to pay,just so they get enough starters to make up a field.Why are the also rans entitled to so much appearance money? 

I think one solution would be to run a similar type of meeting,with all  the races programmed to include a condition that any horse trained by a trainer who has won a group one race for that gait(e.g.pacer) in the previous season,is excluded from being nominated.The condition of the races would also make it clear that horses would not be eligible for nomination if trained by an excluded trainer within the previous 3 months.Obviously the races would have to include a wider spread of horse ages,and not just the young age groups.

If you want the industry to maintain participation levels,thats part of the solution. Either you want the grass roots participants to continue,or you don't.

Edited December 5, 2022 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

15 minutes ago, the galah said:

Some good and relevant observations made above.

I know the average industry grass roots participant would see yesterdays meeting as proof they have no chance of ever competing with the big players like the all stars and the telfers,when it comes to the pacers.

You can ignore the point,but reality is ignoring it won't make it irrelevant nor will it make it go away. It has to be addressed in some way.

It looks like they paid out over $150,000 in stakes to the horses who didn't finish in the top 4.

i don't know whether they still charge nomination fees for such races,but it sure seems a lot of money they elect to pay,just so they get enough starters to make up a field.Why are the also rans entitled to so much appearance money? 

I think one solution would be to run a similar type of meeting,with all  the races programmed to include a condition that any horse trained by a trainer who has won a group one race for that gait(e.g.pacer) in the previous season,is excluded from being nominated.The condition of the races would also make it clear that horses would not be eligible for nomination if trained by an excluded trainer within the previous 3 months.Obviously the races would have to include a wider spread of horse ages,and not just the young age groups.

If you want the industry to maintain participation levels,thats part of the solution. Either you want the grass roots participants to continue,or you don't.

Why not reduce the high end stakes and raise the lower ones.  Then those with average horses can earn a bit more.

Otherwise you are rewarding mediocrity by creating an uneven playing field.

What's more the horses that win or place at your alternative meeting can't be graded.

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

I think one solution would be to run a similar type of meeting,with all  the races programmed to include a condition that any horse trained by a trainer who has won a group one race for that gait(e.g.pacer) in the previous season,is excluded from being nominated.The condition of the races would also make it clear that horses would not be eligible for nomination if trained by an excluded trainer within the previous 3 months.Obviously the races would have to include a wider spread of horse ages,and not just the young age groups.

You can't exclude trainers. that would cause real division. You're trying to create an A League and B league of people by doing that. People would become vert touchy lol.    It has to be the horses.

Solution very easy IMO . Just run races for horses that have not won a race in last 6 starts or 10 starts or whatever/ OR  haven't earned over say something like  $5000 in last 6 starts , etc etc ....  Allstars and Telfer horses almost certain to be excluded from those sort of races . And they can run for the normal prizemoney .

[Blackie]

All good points.

I've always been an advocate of loading(higher $) for maidens. Other than age group racing, all your expense of getting a horse to the races is in that period when they first compete for some money. Why not make it loaded, $20k, so that even the placegetters are getting a wee bit. Once through that grade, thats when you could race for a little less in races with conditions, as Gammalite points out. My 10c worth.

[Brodie]

12 minutes ago, Blackie said:

All good points.

I've always been an advocate of loading(higher $) for maidens. Other than age group racing, all your expense of getting a horse to the races is in that period when they first compete for some money. Why not make it loaded, $20k, so that even the placegetters are getting a wee bit. Once through that grade, thats when you could race for a little less in races with conditions, as Gammalite points out. My 10c worth.

The problem is that there are several issues at play all to the detriment of racing.

Firstly there has been so little effort in attracting new people for decades and this is going to be the thing that kills racIng here.

No new punters coming thru and the ones still around are being stymied by the NZ Tab.

The ones in Perone are being paid big salaries and not performing, we have a very poor RIB and HRNZ are very poor and not performing satisfactorily with some very poor decision making.

It is far too expensive now to race a horse for the benefits and is going to get far worse.

Existing owners aren’t going to breed or buy to the same extent in the future and many of us know why this is!

As I asked yesterday does anyone actually see a lot of positives for this once great industry?

 

[Blackie]

Brodie, I think racing in general has been a sunset industry for awhile and the current economic conditions are only going to accelerate this. Certainly seen the golden years. People don’t race a horse to make money , that’s for sure. Gotta have a dream.

 

[Brodie]

13 minutes ago, Blackie said:

Brodie, I think racing in general has been a sunset industry for awhile and the current economic conditions are only going to accelerate this. Certainly seen the golden years. People don’t race a horse to make money , that’s for sure. Gotta have a dream.

 

You are correct Blackie.

We need punters or there is no stakes so no need for horses!

As you know TAB agencies is where people used to gather and wager, now there are next to no agencies.

Try going to a pub TAb to get cash or betting vouchers if you have over a measley $1k.

The control that the NZ TAB has and wants is plain sickening and certainly not getting better.

Personally  can not be bothered at the moment, they can keep the remaining punters interested by giving away free bets to them, which is the only thing that maintains turnover figures.

Have had a look at the TAB figures for meetings over the last few months and does not read very well!

Think there needs to be a total rethink as to how the business is being run currently or it is going to be history here unfortunately.

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Brodie

[the galah]

4 hours ago, Gammalite said:

You can't exclude trainers. that would cause real division. You're trying to create an A League and B league of people by doing that. People would become vert touchy lol.    It has to be the horses.

Solution very easy IMO . Just run races for horses that have not won a race in last 6 starts or 10 starts or whatever/ OR  haven't earned over say something like  $5000 in last 6 starts , etc etc ....  Allstars and Telfer horses almost certain to be excluded from those sort of races . And they can run for the normal prizemoney .

But they already have on occasions.

They have races for south of the bombay,south of the waitaki,several other races where a condition is group one winners are excluded,races where clearly the programmers target getting larger numbers by having conditions excluding the higher performers,etc.

It wouldn't cause division if you are only excluding the handful of trainers who have won group one races the previouse seaso. Quite the opposite i would have thought. Catering to 99.9% of the other industry participants would unite those people .

Causing real division is in fact what you got on sunday. In other words races where only 2 trainers had any chance of training a  group one winner for pacers. Everyone knew that beforehand.

Don't all sports have different divisions.Take rugby for example. We have the NPC and the heartland championships.They do that because they understand there are different levels of talent and resources,and the best way to encourage participation is to have realistic championships for teams to aim at.You could guarantee if the top npc team,with all their resources kept playing the heartland teams there would be on outcry over it being unfair and pointless.

I would expect the elite stables like the all stars recognise that,and want only what is best for the industry? Its not as if yesterdays race day would be taken away. They would still have the highest stakes and the group one status.

Your suggestion,the money earnt in the last few starts  thing is something i agree could be used more in nz, just i  think is more applicable to every day racing than a higher stake day that i suggested.

At the end of the day,would my suggestion be something that the 99.9 % of the industry i refer to support. Would it be something which encourages them,instead of discourages,I would expect so.

Edited December 5, 2022 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

31 minutes ago, the galah said:

Don't all sports have different divisions.Take rugby for example. We have the NPC and the heartland championships.They do that because they understand there are different levels of talent and resources,and the best way to encourage participation is to have realistic championships for teams to aim at.You could guarantee if the top npc team,with all their resources kept playing the heartland teams there would be on outcry over it being unfair and pointless.

Doesn't racing have grades?  Aren't they called rating bands?  Or does Harness also have "tiered" racing?

[Gammalite]

39 minutes ago, the galah said:

t wouldn't cause division if you are only excluding the handful of trainers who have won group one races the previouse seaso. Quite the opposite i would have thought. Catering to 99.9% of the other industry participants would unite those people .

Can't do it . It's how you rate the horses , you can't 'handicap' a stable. 

Tony Herlihy wins group 1 races at Auckland . You can't exclude him. Nor Ray Green. Roy and Barry Purdon won group 1 's for decades . You would never say " Don't Turn Up" .. you would just admire them as they beat you and win yet again. They had wealthy owners and the best stock , that's all there is to it. 

Canterbury has the Dunn stable chasing Mark pretty hard . and getting wins with Sundee's Son . I say you handicap the horse like has always been done. 'Sundees Son' and 'Copy That' should of been off 10m in the Cup and Dominion this year. Just near impossible for the minor stables to win those races with no handicap penalty for the nations best. 

Maybe other stables could follow the BEN YOLE model from Tassie , and just load races with as many runners as they can get in them?? he near has whole field quite often these days. and Yole is the 'Best' in Australia apparently and is now applying that 'load the race' model in Victoria (and has 50 wins there too , so that is something I didn't expect) so is gaining more respect. Mr House has a little success too with that model. And Bernie and Michelle at Auckland .  And Telfers on occasion. 

 

[the galah]

58 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Can't do it . It's how you rate the horses , you can't 'handicap' a stable. 

Tony Herlihy wins group 1 races at Auckland . You can't exclude him. Nor Ray Green. Roy and Barry Purdon won group 1 's for decades . You would never say " Don't Turn Up" .. you would just admire them as they beat you and win yet again. They had wealthy owners and the best stock , that's all there is to it. 

Canterbury has the Dunn stable chasing Mark pretty hard . and getting wins with Sundee's Son . I say you handicap the horse like has always been done. 'Sundees Son' and 'Copy That' should of been off 10m in the Cup and Dominion this year. Just near impossible for the minor stables to win those races with no handicap penalty for the nations best. 

Maybe other stables could follow the BEN YOLE model from Tassie , and just load races with as many runners as they can get in them?? he near has whole field quite often these days. and Yole is the 'Best' in Australia apparently and is now applying that 'load the race' model in Victoria (and has 50 wins there too , so that is something I didn't expect) so is gaining more respect. Mr House has a little success too with that model. And Bernie and Michelle at Auckland .  And Telfers on occasion. 

 

Ok.if thats how it is,thats how it is.

You have to realise,after watching yesterday,that if you stick to the status quo,the industries future is doomed quicker than i ever thought..

Who in their right mind would spend say $10,000 to breed a nice mare to a reasonable stallion,not a top grade one like the big players can afford,and then pay for the vets,foaling,gst,grazing.etc. Then wait 2 years,send it to a trainer who has NO chance of winning a big race. 

You would have to have no regard for economics to do that.

Also,just ask your this.

How many people looked at yesterdays racing and thought,what great drugs those couple of stables have.Never said they are using anything illegal,just saying thats what i think.

And don't tell me i'm in the minority when i say that. everyone i speak to thinks the same.

So add that all together and the industry,as it is , doesn't have much of a future.

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by the galah

[Gammalite]

20 minutes ago, the galah said:

Ok.if thats how it is,thats how it is.

You have to realise,after watching yesterday,that if you stick to the status quo,the industries future is doomed quicker than i ever thought..

Who in their right mind would spend say $10,000 to breed a nice mare to a reasonable stallion,not a top grade one like the big players can afford,and then pay for the vets,foaling,gst,grazing.etc. Then wait 2 years,send it to a trainer who has NO chance of winning a big race. 

You would have to have no regard for economics to do that.

Also,just ask your this.

How many people looked at yesterdays racing and thought,what great drugs those couple of stables have.Never said they are using anything illegal,just saying thats what i think.

And don't tell me i'm in the minority when i say that. everyone i speak to thinks the same.

So add that all together and the industry,as it is , doesn't have much of a future.

 

You are quite right in a lot of that. Brodie has been suggesting it for years. Too expensive / can't beat Allstars/ hard to win a race/ less horses racing/ Why risk breeding / why risk racing/ why spend 10k ./ too many drugs cheats. People in charge are all corrupt, stipes no good , starter no good. Did I get everyone? 

Even the American dudes who bought Amazing Dream and others said they're Not coming back again. Industry is shot to pieces there for the future .( and the past shot to pieces too😩 , with packing up the museum(s) sadly )

I certainly wouldn't race a horse in Nz chasing those quick ones around yesterday. You are quite right in 'Why compete with that?' they're just too good. shift to Aus like Lilley, the Butt brothers Ants and Tim, or Brosnan, Dickie and others easier way to do it, if you want to keep racing them. I'm lucky I did it early and got winners here. Never beat Mark there , even in the 80's lol. He's Always been good that young man. And his family is just so nice too. I find it hard to fathom the hate and DISRESPECT on all the forums ...........but they all saying the same thing .Harness racing finished in Nz soon. and yet I still wonder why it had to come to that. 

[the galah]

29 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

You are quite right in a lot of that. Brodie has been suggesting it for years. Too expensive / can't beat Allstars/ hard to win a race/ less horses racing/ Why risk breeding / why risk racing/ why spend 10k ./ too many drugs cheats. People in charge are all corrupt, stipes no good , starter no good. Did I get everyone? 

Even the American dudes who bought Amazing Dream and others said they're Not coming back again. Industry is shot to pieces there for the future .( and the past shot to pieces too😩 , with packing up the museum(s) sadly )

I certainly wouldn't race a horse in Nz chasing those quick ones around yesterday. You are quite right in 'Why compete with that?' they're just too good. shift to Aus like Lilley, the Butt brothers Ants and Tim, or Brosnan, Dickie and others easier way to do it, if you want to keep racing them. I'm lucky I did it early and got winners here. Never beat Mark there , even in the 80's lol. He's Always been good that young man. And his family is just so nice too. I find it hard to fathom the hate and DISRESPECT on all the forums ...........but they all saying the same thing .Harness racing finished in Nz soon. and yet I still wonder why it had to come to that. 

The one thing you have got totally wrong is the bit where you say...hard to fathom the hate and disrespect of mark purdon.

surprising and even amazing that you would say that.

I have never met anyone who thinks that.

Edited December 5, 2022 by the galah

[Brodie]

50 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

You are quite right in a lot of that. Brodie has been suggesting it for years. Too expensive / can't beat Allstars/ hard to win a race/ less horses racing/ Why risk breeding / why risk racing/ why spend 10k ./ too many drugs cheats. People in charge are all corrupt, stipes no good , starter no good. Did I get everyone? 

Even the American dudes who bought Amazing Dream and others said they're Not coming back again. Industry is shot to pieces there for the future .( and the past shot to pieces too😩 , with packing up the museum(s) sadly )

I certainly wouldn't race a horse in Nz chasing those quick ones around yesterday. You are quite right in 'Why compete with that?' they're just too good. shift to Aus like Lilley, the Butt brothers Ants and Tim, or Brosnan, Dickie and others easier way to do it, if you want to keep racing them. I'm lucky I did it early and got winners here. Never beat Mark there , even in the 80's lol. He's Always been good that young man. And his family is just so nice too. I find it hard to fathom the hate and DISRESPECT on all the forums ...........but they all saying the same thing .Harness racing finished in Nz soon. and yet I still wonder why it had to come to that. 

Mostly correct Gamma.

never said too many drug cheats, but there are plenty who are trying things to try and be competitive to keep owners so they do not go broke!

Never said people in charge are corrupt either!

There are some making decisions that are not in the best interests of harness racing, and are very easily led!

Yes the  RIU are doing a very poor job on the whole.

Some very dumb decisions made from RIU and Stipes.

Many have no record of being successful but somehow get appointed.

Anyway If they can not see that they are doing damage to the industry then Brodie can not change things, it is up to them.

There are plenty of people who read BOAY but do not make comments.

People need to speak up and express their opinion as complacency and going through the motions over the past few decades has seen the industry deteriorate, just like NZ has suffered the past few years due to a totally incompetent Labour Party that over 50%  voted back in for a second term when they were useless first time around.

That decision is going to plague those voters in the next year majorly.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Brodie

[the galah]

35 minutes ago, the galah said:

The one thing you have got totally wrong is the bit where you say...hard to fathom the hate and disrespect of mark purdon.

surprising and even amazing that you would say that.

I have never met anyone who thinks that.

Actually gammalite i have been thinking.

Maybe saying i believe the all stars horses performances are helped by the use of legal performance enhancers could be viewed as being disrespectful by some. So if thats your nterpretation of anyone who says that,then yes there are many.

Of course i would say,as with anything,you have to have context,and if you were to me on a rating of 1-10 how much i respect someone,then purdon would be close to the top,but would not quite get a 10 for the reason mentioned. I would rate someone like mark jones ,greg hope,ricky may, jim curtin and a handful of others slightly higher. Thats my opinion,many others would have purdon at the top.

Edited December 5, 2022 by the galah

[Gammalite]

21 minutes ago, the galah said:

The one thing you have got totally wrong is the bit where you say...hard to fathom the hate and disrespect of mark purdon.

surprising and even amazing that you would say that.

I have never met anyone who thinks that.

Mate , there are a lot of comments on the very next thread that are very disrespectful ...Purdons tonight. so don't think I'm totally wrong as has been a common theme over the years. Forbury and others have said some 'harsh' stuff at times , even called  criminal. I have posted 50-100 times retaliating over a long stretch.

I'm glad you have missed All that then? !! it made me feel ill when knowing how good a training and driving Family he comes from. Winning races ? no surprise to me . Always did like big brother Barry and dad Roy. Nothing but respect for them from me anyway. 

and hey I did have some elonggated arguement with you once as well,? over Beyond Words/ Amazing Dream race at Auckland . you may have forgotten . but you wanted him charged at the time lol. 

 

[the galah]

2 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Mate , there are a lot of comments on the very next thread that are very disrespectful ...Purdons tonight. so don't think I'm totally wrong as has been a common theme over the years. Forbury and others have said some 'harsh' stuff at times , even called  criminal. I have posted 50-100 times retaliating over a long stretch.

I'm glad you have missed All that then? !! it made me feel ill when knowing how good a training and driving Family he comes from. Winning races ? no surprise to me . Always did like big brother Barry and dad Roy. Nothing but respect for them from me anyway. 

and hey I did have some elonggated arguement with you once as well,? over Beyond Words/ Amazing Dream race at Auckland . you may have forgotten . but you wanted him charged at the time lol. 

 

Yes,if you read my post after the one you quote ,i have clarified my thoughts. Like i said ,everything has to be taken in context of the whole picture,and that includes things like  team driving.

[Gammalite]

5 minutes ago, the galah said:

Maybe saying i believe the all stars horses performances are helped by the use of legal performance enhancers could be viewed as being disrespectful by some. So if thats your nterpretation of anyone who says that,then yes there are many

I do believe all horses racing should have veterinary assistance of some kind to help them feel great, look great and go great. The right body treatments of horses is vital to keep them in racing knick. I tube drenched all my runners the day after a race to help them bounce back and recover for next weeks assignment.

Chris Wallers horses don't win millions $$ on love and oats alone. There is a fantastic modern treatment regime in place. He would almost have full time vet I would think. 

Mark Purdon has been the only one I see criticised all the time on this site (and all the forums) . Dunn horses often have those nasal strips on as well (marking them urgen)t , where's the blood work on those ones? spinning around and around I spose. Sundee trotting pretty quick past year or 2? 

There you go !! that's how easy it is to be disrespectful (like I was to Sundee and Dunns just then) HELPS No-one. 

[Gammalite]

12 minutes ago, the galah said:

Yes,if you read my post after the one you quote ,i have clarified my thoughts. Like i said ,everything has to be taken in context of the whole picture,and that includes things like  team driving.

yes thanks for that. Of course I have noticed you post fairly and with thought on any incident you see fit. Big stable or little . which is great and what a forum is all about. and nearly always with some interesting point too. I recall watching some of those standing start handicaps at Cambridge you mentioned , they were incredibly far back at times? That was a funny one. 

[the galah]

26 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

I do believe all horses racing should have veterinary assistance of some kind to help them feel great, look great and go great. The right body treatments of horses is vital to keep them in racing knick. I tube drenched all my runners the day after a race to help them bounce back and recover for next weeks assignment.

Chris Wallers horses don't win millions $$ on love and oats alone. There is a fantastic modern treatment regime in place. He would almost have full time vet I would think. 

Mark Purdon has been the only one I see criticised all the time on this site (and all the forums) . Dunn horses often have those nasal strips on as well (marking them urgen)t , where's the blood work on those ones? spinning around and around I spose. Sundee trotting pretty quick past year or 2? 

There you go !! that's how easy it is to be disrespectful (like I was to Sundee and Dunns just then) HELPS No-one. 

 

Unfortunately,al least i think so,the  world we live in seems to be headed further down the path where peoples opinions can not be expressed for fear of offending.Isn't it better to know what people think,than to not. At least thats what i think anyway. 

You mention sundee son.

There is a difference how the dunn stable is viewed compared to the all stars. The dunn stable can't lift performance  as much as the all stars can on the big days.

The dunn horses may improve a bit come the bigger days,but what you get is pretty much what you see all year round. The all stars can lift performance on the group one days beyond what is previously seen by their horses performances during the non group one days. People draw their own conclusions as to how..Thats the reason behind why people often talk about the all stars.

Is there not a logic there where you could say the dunn stables are the better trainers as they can get their horses to perform closer to their peak all year round,and not just on a handful of days.

Yes sunndees son put in somwe eye popping runs,but on the subject we are discussing,no one judges a stable on just one horses performance.They are judged on the how the whole stble performs.

Thats why i would say sundees son deserves to be called a champion trotter.

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by the galah

[Gammalite]

8 minutes ago, the galah said:

Thats why i would say sundees son deserves to be called a champion trotter.

Yes he has run some amazing times and got some big race wins with his Dominions and Rowes.

I would quietly argue against the 'handful of day's' thing . Mark and Nat quite capable of winning a race anytime of year and can't find many that back up the arguement of just winning when the money is on? . Millwood Nike been winning all year , well not much point going through them as Everyone knows how good they are e.g True Fantasy, Spankem ,Self Assured ,Amazing Dream and now AKUTA (could be the best yet) are and can win anytime anywhere. The Race, The Auckland Cup, any amount of Spring or Autumn Oaks and Derbies. The last 8 Sires Stakes (all 8 horses with good form throughout the year after) Vincent in Oz , Smolda and Lazarus both won the Interdominion in Perth ,I would say they're on winners every month of the year (bar mid winter maybe) in feature races for a decade now. 

One horse like SHAN NOBLE for example stops winning and everyone is on their case for Not winning outside feature days (But he's just not that good is the REAL reason lol....😆)

33 minutes ago, the galah said:

Is there not a logic there where you could say the dunn stables are the better trainers as they can get their horses to perform closer to their peak all year round,and not just on a handful of days.

Nah....... Dunns 'Fastest' horse in 'Open class' is Heisenberg . It won recently at 50-1 after not winning for 2 years. Is he really their best these days?  only a handful of days (or less) when Dunns are getting open class pacer win these days. Steel the Show disappointing too. 

 

[Chief Stipe]

6 hours ago, the galah said:

Unfortunately,al least i think so,the  world we live in seems to be headed further down the path where peoples opinions can not be expressed for fear of offending.Isn't it better to know what people think,than to not. At least thats what i think anyway.

I'll always protect your right to offend on BOAY.

[Chief Stipe]

6 hours ago, the galah said:

Unfortunately,al least i think so,the  world we live in seems to be headed further down the path where peoples opinions can not be expressed for fear of offending.Isn't it better to know what people think,than to not. At least thats what i think anyway.

I'll always protect your right to offend on BOAY.