EPO Rumours on the Rise Again! Fact or Fiction?

[Chief Stipe]

I see the usual suspects are pushing the EPO rumours again.  The same ownership group aided and abetted by @Archie Butterfly.

Grimson is one target.

There is one slight difference this time and that is it has been suggested the authorities are retrospectively testing old samples using new technologies.  

A couple of flaws with that rumour.  The stability of the alleged substances being looked for and the fact the technology has been available for many years.  

[Robalan]

The detection of EPO is very difficult. There is only a 3 day window, after injection, for the substance to be detected. Therefore when do you swab, some say look at a 4 week period for when a horse is eligible to race in a major race and work back from there to calculate the ideal time to swab a horse

[the galah]

Retrospective testing is not something authorities use as a tool to identify cheats who use performance enhancers.

Firstly you would have to have authorities who want to identify cheats,and i think it goes without saying that authorities do not want to and have never wanted to catch  anyone high profile. Authorities only want cheating exposed if it is low profile people or someone they want to target who has pissed them off. By far the vast majority of people believe that.Its only in very recent years that the current RIU/RIB seem to have started to try and treat everyone the same,altough its also apparent HRNZ leadership have concerns about that change.

I will give a historical nz example.

When geoff small was having his run ins with authorities,eventually they got tired of his "i can do whatever i want approach",so one day they had the bright idea of retrospectively testing for dmso all group and listed races going back a few months. They had this light bulb moment because it had been noticed several of his team had a really distinctive  body odour,in other words they stunk,and they knew this was likely to be a result of his use of dmso within the previous 3 or so days.

So while dmso use was illegal within a certain time frame,authorities for reasons only they knew,didn't test for it.So they did the retrospective testing and lo and behold they got him on some positives. But then they came up with unwanted multiple positives from the high profile rogerson/simpson barn and another well known southland trainer had one.

Turned out their vets knew that it was an illegal substance,but had not expected its use to be a problem as HRNZ always seemed to have a policy of telling trainers and vets to stop using products that would return positives ,long before they would test for them. In other words,HRNZ would hear rumours what the latest performance enhancer being used was,and then to avoid catching anyone high profile would go public and tell them they would in the future start testing for said product ,so stop using it as we don't want to catch you.Thats a fact,there was several examples of mr  gobder from the riu pre warning those who used performance enhancers.

So the upshot of the Geoff small case was,yes they got him,but they had better be careful in the future with retrospective testing as they didn't want to catch the wrong person.

At the time of the retrospective DMSO testing,you would have had to wonder why on earth the vets,racecourse inspectors and the swabbing stewards completely ignored the likely cause of the horses body odours. I mean ask yourself,it was very well known the smell associated with dmso use,and it was known to be illegal. Obviously they were all just ignorant of something they should have known about ,or they just ignored it. 

Anyway the point is don't ever expect retrospective testing here as hrnz would only allow that if they could target someone.

Edited February 7, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

39 minutes ago, Robalan said:

The detection of EPO is very difficult. There is only a 3 day window, after injection, for the substance to be detected. Therefore when do you swab, some say look at a 4 week period for when a horse is eligible to race in a major race and work back from there to calculate the ideal time to swab a horse

If that is correct then what value is it 4 weeks from administration?

[Chief Stipe]

21 minutes ago, the galah said:

Retrospective testing is not something authorities use as a tool to identify cheats who use performance enhancers.

Firstly you would have to have authorities who want to identify cheats,and i think it goes without saying that authorities do not want to and have never wanted to catch  anyone high profile. Authorities only want cheating exposed if it is low profile people or someone they want to target who has pissed them off. By far the vast majority of people believe that.Its only in very recent years that the current RIU/RIB seem to have started to try and treat everyone the same,altough its also apparent HRNZ leadership have concerns about that change.

I will give a historical nz example.

When geoff small was having his run ins with authorities,eventually they got tired of his "i can do whatever i want approach",so one day they had the bright idea of retrospectively testing for dmso all group and listed races going back a few months. They had this light bulb moment because it had been noticed several of his team had a really distinctive  body odour,in other words they stunk,and they knew this was likely to be a result of his use of dmso within the previous 3 or so days.

So while dmso use was illegal within a certain time frame,authorities for reasons only they knew,didn't test for it.So they did the retrospective testing and lo and behold they got him on some positives. But then they came up with unwanted multiple positives from the high profile rogerson/simpson barn and another well known southland trainer had one.

Turned out their vets knew that it was an illegal substance,but had not expected its use to be a problem as HRNZ always seemed to have a policy of telling trainers and vets to stop using products that would return positives ,long before they would test for them. In other words,HRNZ would hear rumours what the latest performance enhancer being used was,and then to avoid catching anyone high profile would go public and tell them they would in the future start testing for said product ,so stop using it as we don't want to catch you.Thats a fact,there was several examples of mr  gobder from the riu pre warning those who used performance enhancers.

So the upshot of the Geoff small case was,yes they got him,but they had better be careful in the future with retrospective testing as they didn't want to catch the wrong person.

At the time of the retrospective DMSO testing,you would have had to wonder why on earth the vets,racecourse inspectors and the swabbing stewards completely ignored the likely cause of the horses body odours. I mean ask yourself,it was very well known the smell associated with dmso use,and it was known to be illegal. Obviously they were all just ignorant of something they should have known about ,or they just ignored it. 

Anyway the point is don't ever expect retrospective testing as authorites would only do that if they could target someone.

I'm not sure what you are saying here.  Isn't DMSO legal to use as an anti-inflammatory but has a withholding period?

Are you sure that they didn't just change the detection levels with the advent of more accurate technology?

Hardly performance enhancing.

 

INTERNATIONAL

BACK

Negative test results for DMSO

22 September 2008 by NZTR

New Zealand Thoroughbred Racing (NZTR) advised on Monday that all samples requested for retrospective testing for dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO) on 11 September 2008 have been analysed as negative.

 

NZTR directed that all swabs collected from the first three officially placed horses in all Group and Listed races together with Prestige Jumping Races since 1 April 2008 (and some random samples) would be tested for DMSO.

 

DMSO is a prohibited substance when present at a level above 15 milligrams per litre in urine or 1.0 milligram per litre in plasma, as declared in clause 4 (c) in the Sixth Appendix of the Rules of Racing.

 

A positive DMSO swab, which was above the allowed concentration, was taken from the horse Wonderland at the Franklin Trotting Club meeting on 15 August 2008. In light of this positive swab Harness Racing New Zealand (HRNZ) undertook to retrospectively test all urine swabs from all Group 1 races and all races offering $100,000 or more in stakes since 1 April 2008 for DMSO.

 

 

NOTE:

 

DMSO is administered to horses following exercise to aid muscle recovery, to provide support to the immune system and for respiratory system health. DMSO is also used to reduce the harm caused by pulling and/or wrenching muscles.

 

The standard advice from veterinarians for the use of DMSO has been to administer 50 mils not less than 48 hours for detection time and 72 hours for withholding time prior to racing.

 

DMSO appears to have a cumulative effect - over time, smaller doses of DMSO are required in order to produce the same effect.

[the galah]

17 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I'm not sure what you are saying here.  Isn't DMSO legal to use as an anti-inflammatory but has a withholding period?

Hardly performance enhancing.

Well you have just said it has a withholding period.. 

So withholding period means the minimum length of time that needs to expire before its use is legal. So obviously its use is illegal if its used inside that withholding period.

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by the galah

[Gammalite]

6 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Grimson is one target.

What happened to the 'Teddy Baker' trainer bloke? . Junior driver 'Dewes' or something similar. Teddy baker suddenly winning them in a row Southland (then Addington too 🤣💰) when couldn't break 2.00min for Hunter previously.

have they found something yet?  Horse off the scene for a while now. 

[Rangatira]

23 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

What happened to the 'Teddy Baker' trainer bloke? . Junior driver 'Dewes' or something similar. Teddy baker suddenly winning them in a row Southland (then Addington too 🤣💰) when couldn't break 2.00min for Hunter previously.

have they found something yet?  Horse off the scene for a while now. 

Rakajed and Tisbury Rocks headed your way Gamma

[Gammalite]

7 hours ago, Rangatira said:

Rakajed and Tisbury Rocks

Tyler Dewe with 9 wins from 20 starters in Nz . that's a great strike rate !! Thats In the bigger fields and harder races of the South Island too. Should do pretty well in Oz. 

[Rangatira]

7 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Tyler Dewe with 9 wins from 20 starters in Nz . that's a great strike rate !! Thats In the bigger fields and harder races of the South Island too. Should do pretty well in Oz. 

Meekatharrah ripe for the picking ?

[Chief Stipe]

@Blossom lady if EPO IS in widespread use why haven't the Racing Integrity Authorities commissioned research to determine:

1.  If EPO makes a difference to performance;

2.  How to detect human and or artificial EPO in equine blood.

There are ample near retirement (or should be retired) standards that could be participants in the research.  I'm also sure that there would be any number of under utilised training environments that could be used for the research.

Yeah na!  Better to take the dumb cop approach aka INCA and waste $14m.

Actually thinking about it hand me $500k and I'll run the research.

[Nowornever]

On 7/02/2023 at 11:58 PM, Gammalite said:

Tyler Dewe with 9 wins from 20 starters in Nz . that's a great strike rate !! Thats In the bigger fields and harder races of the South Island too. Should do pretty well in Oz. 

How does a young trainer barely out of his teens keep getting these horses that have numerous starts and can hardly run fast enough to keep themselves warm with other experienced trainers, yet when he gets them they can suddenly sprint a half in 56 seconds and run a 1:56 mile rate three weeks later?

[Taupiri Wonder]

15 hours ago, Nowornever said:

How does a young trainer barely out of his teens keep getting these horses that have numerous starts and can hardly run fast enough to keep themselves warm with other experienced trainers, yet when he gets them they can suddenly sprint a half in 56 seconds and run a 1:56 mile rate three weeks later?

OK,Two more newcomers to Tyler Dewe Stable as from last week to look out for!

BAILEYS ART 4yo mare.*Rating 40

Career 19 starts *0 wins 1 second 2 thirds

Previous Trainers :*Wayne McEwan 12*Amber Hoffman 2*Kirsten Green 5

UNSURPASSABLE 6yo gelding.*Rating 39

Career 18 starts *1 win 2 seconds 2 thirds

Previous Trainers Tony Stratford 15*Nathan Williamson 3

Tyler Dewe Part Owner Baileys Art as from this week.

[Taupiri Wonder]

Tyler Dewe Debutante:

BAILEYS ART has first run from Tyler Dewe Stable next Sunday at Riverton *RACE 2 # 6.

[Taupiri Wonder]

On 10/02/2023 at 10:36 AM, Taupiri Wonder said:

Tyler Dewe Debutante:

BAILEYS ART has first run from Tyler Dewe Stable next Sunday at Riverton *RACE 2 # 6.

WELL WELL WELL *Wins @ $6 Fixed Odds @ $5 Tote.🤑

The magical winning run of Tyler Dewe continues!!!

Edited February 12, 2023 by Taupiri Wonder