Does NZ Racing deserve Government support

[mardigras]

18 minutes ago, Horseboy said:

And where would the industry be if the Govt didnt impose a monopoly? Air New Zealand seems to be doing better...

If you reduce competition by controlling an industry as a govt then you either have to support it, or get out and let the market operate.

I have no problem with there being no monopoly. Have advocated that for well over a decade. 

However, the monopoly isn't what had caused the problem. The management of that monopoly and the decisions taken to effectively wipe out interest in the NZ industry has nothing to do with it being a monopoly.

[Reefton]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Good luck.  There's always hope and I realise there is a time in your life when you say I've got to let go but shite I for one want to be in my last days in the rocker, broke, thinking well at least I always did the right thing and gave it a bloody good go. 

Sometime Reefton it takes times like this to motivate the masses.  Use that energy like someone else has suggestion and make sure your great racecourse goes out with a bang!

It ain't a great racecourse CS - actually every racecourse in NZ has shortcomings of one sort or another and ours is no exception.  I have been looking to get out for several years but lack of someone putting their hand up has stopped me doing so.  I suspect this time they will be all fire and brimstone right up to the point where the election is called and will suddenly go quiet.  Doesn't worry me one way or the other.

[Horseboy]

1 hour ago, mardigras said:

I have no problem with there being no monopoly. Have advocated that for well over a decade. 

However, the monopoly isn't what had caused the problem. The management of that monopoly and the decisions taken to effectively wipe out interest in the NZ industry has nothing to do with it being a monopoly.

I would argue once you remove competition or strangle it the results we have seen over the past decades are just a simple by-product. Also note that it was the Govt that essentially appointed the management of the TAB through the Minister appointing the NZRB chair. In my book that means they have to take their fair share of responsibility for the situation we are in.

[mardigras]

 

Competition has always been there. But the TAB changed the focus of what they offered. And they paid the price. 

It's like going to the fish and chip shop and saying you want three fish. And the chippie says, we have these Australian fish - better fish - you want some?

And then complaining when no-one wants to buy any NZ fish.

The monopoly provided the choices, the people took the new choices, but the new choices add costs without reducing local costs. All you've done is shift interest from one place to another whilst adding costs overall.

That would have still happened if there was competition here. And prior to the decisions made around that, NZ racing was largely self sufficient. That is only just over a decade ago.

NZ racing should be grateful that up to now, the government has been kind enough to keep giving them revenue from that Australian 'fish'.

[Kopia]

Maybe the question at then head of this post should be......even if NZ First tries to implement the Messiah report, who will support it in Parliament ?

'Cindy' who hates to be called 'Cindy' is clearly missing in action...dodging interviews and blaming 'scheduling' issues....its pretty obvious Peters has got her ' over a barrel' ( ugh ) at the moment.  However, he's going to need labour to prop up the Racing Industry changes to legislation...or else he's going to have to go  hand in cap to National....good luck with that Winnie!

There's interesting times ahead. It would be more better if we, i.e. the voting public, were 'permitted' to see what the NZ First and Labour and the Greens agreed to in their secret coalition agreements..which isn't a coalition agreement according to winnie...but its obvious that there's something in there thats too secret..even tho 'cindy' said there's be open government..jeeze cindy might be time to get in touch with the puppeteer ( red Helen ) again..!!

 

 

[Horseboy]

19 hours ago, mardigras said:

 

Competition has always been there. But the TAB changed the focus of what they offered. And they paid the price. 

It's like going to the fish and chip shop and saying you want three fish. And the chippie says, we have these Australian fish - better fish - you want some?

And then complaining when no-one wants to buy any NZ fish.

The monopoly provided the choices, the people took the new choices, but the new choices add costs without reducing local costs. All you've done is shift interest from one place to another whilst adding costs overall.

That would have still happened if there was competition here. And prior to the decisions made around that, NZ racing was largely self sufficient. That is only just over a decade ago.

NZ racing should be grateful that up to now, the government has been kind enough to keep giving them revenue from that Australian 'fish'.

How is Australian racing different from Fonterra investing in Chinese Milk Powder?

If racing (historically clubs) has some form of ownership of the TAB and that organisation finds revenue sources outside local product, why does that revenue suddenly become disconnected from NZ racing?

 

[mardigras]

5 minutes ago, Horseboy said:

How is Australian racing different from Fonterra investing in Chinese Milk Powder?
 

Last time I looked, Fonterra was a business not run by government. 

You'd be keen on NZRB buying up a few supermarkets then and giving the proceeds to racing. All with government money.

6 minutes ago, Horseboy said:

If racing (historically clubs) has some form of ownership of the TAB and that organisation finds revenue sources outside local product, why does that revenue suddenly become disconnected from NZ racing?
 

Because the government took ownership of the TAB and all the assets. History is of little to no importance. It is only legislation that keeps all the revenues going to racing. 

There is no dues to be paid. The government are simply being generous giving things like sports, offshore betting revenues and pokie money to racing. I'm surprised they haven't opened up supermarkets now that you mention additional revenue sources.

[Horseboy]

Supermarkets aren't the core business of a gambling operator. Hence why they got a Gaming license and started operating pokies to generate additional revenue. They are already doing it.
I disagree it's that clear cut. Racing is the prime benefactor of the legislation, if government wants to come in and pull the rug out now then we should challenge that since it was betting on horse racing that built the initial infrastructure for sports and other betting.
What assets? Last i looked successive government ministers have watched the NZRB deplete all it's cash and sell off its asset base.

[mardigras]

May not be many assets left. The assets I'm referring to that became 100% government owned included any land, buildings, software, hardware, fixtures and fittings that was part of the infrastructure at the time. They own the lot - even though it's not worth a lot.

I think the argument about how it all came about wouldn't be overly compelling. It was built up from proceeds of gambling to which the government was already gifting them certain rights. It didn't come at a cost to racing, it came as a benefit. Any tangible investment has been paid back many times over.

[Huey]

On 13/09/2018 at 10:46 AM, Reefton said:

Nothing personal about David Ellis or Karyn Boxie - you have to admire the guy for his salesmanship and confidence in buying all those horses(if not for the bullshit hype they continually spew).

But at some stage in most of our lives we all have to realise we are not going to be Tim Hanks or Chris Waller, James MacDonald, John Key or Hugh Fletcher and make the best of what skills and talents(and most importantly limitations)we have got. 

Re Reefton would you believe there is a mutiny under way in the little old town - somehow some of them think the President has come up with this idea of giving the course to NZTR and is not capable of acting to stop it - I have offered the Presidency up to anyone who wants to take it on so the AGM in a few weeks may signal the end of my battle with Winston and involvement in NZ Racing administration.  Funnily enough the main ones kicking up are not even members but I struggled to explain to them that while the Club remains in the ownership of the RJC they do not have a say.  I am fighting the battle from both sides!

Happening across the country I think Reefton, folk who have been MIA from the club scene now popping up from the reeds to tell everyone who has been working the shift at the club what to do, where the F@@@ have they been? 

[Reefton]

14 hours ago, Huey said:

Happening across the country I think Reefton, folk who have been MIA from the club scene now popping up from the reeds to tell everyone who has been working the shift at the club what to do, where the F@@@ have they been? 

I'm not too worries Huey.  If they want 

[curious]

7 minutes ago, Reefton said:

I'm not too worries Huey.  If they want 

You on the piss Reefton? Hard to make sense of that post!

[Reefton]

14 hours ago, curious said:

You on the piss Reefton? Hard to make sense of that post!

No but I'm nearly threw this effing iPad out the window.  I thought I edited it to correct it but cannot have pushed submit.  Should have said if they want rid of me they are welcome to the job. I'm over it and have been for several years. The enthusiasm to attack Winston is waning as the days roll on. What chance the DIA taking any notice of submissions do you think?  I could write a hundred pages on that report but really concerned I would be wasting my time.

 

[Chief Stipe]

8 hours ago, Reefton said:

No but I'm nearly threw this effing iPad out the window.  I thought I edited it to correct it but cannot have pushed submit.  Should have said if they want rid of me they are welcome to the job. I'm over it and have been for several years. The enthusiasm to attack Winston is waning as the days roll on. What chance the DIA taking any notice of submissions do you think?  I could write a hundred pages on that report but really concerned I would be wasting my time.

 

Don't forget the DIA challenged the Racefields legislation and the industry analysis supporting it.

[curious]

34 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Don't forget the DIA challenged the Racefields legislation and the industry analysis supporting it.

Yes and I'd expect they'll pretty much sort this themselves, submissions or no submissions.

[Justamugpunter]

58 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Don't forget the DIA challenged the Racefields legislation and the industry analysis supporting it.

over the years I have used OIA with them! and have been impressed by some of the results! 

[Reefton]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Don't forget the DIA challenged the Racefields legislation and the industry analysis supporting it.

 

26 minutes ago, curious said:

Yes and I'd expect they'll pretty much sort this themselves, submissions or no submissions.

I just wonder though how much bulldozing Winston will be doing with this in order to satisfy his puppet masters and how much ability government departments have to resist the whims of Ministers. Especially if they cannot find legal reasons to (for instance) stop the land grab. Just advising Winston not to do it is not going to work

[curious]

24 minutes ago, Reefton said:

 

I just wonder though how much bulldozing Winston will be doing with this in order to satisfy his puppet masters and how much ability government departments have to resist the whims of Ministers. Especially if they cannot find legal reasons to (for instance) stop the land grab. Just advising Winston not to do it is not going to work

Well to be fair, as Chief Stipe noted, the DIA stopped the current legislation by robust analysis which rubbished the RB fairy-tale numbers. I expect they will do so again.

The idea of colonising community assets to fund something that should, and should have been, funded from net revenue is such an atrocity that violates so many principles of natural justice, I fail to see how it could possibly be legislated and I suspect the DIA will concur. The only rationale appears to be based on a 50 year old report!

If they even try to do that, I expect it will be tied up in select committee and possibly the courts for years, if not decades.

The same applies to changing section 16 to colonise revenue produced by overseas product for the benefit of TR which would disincentivise (is that a word?) TR from improving their own product to improve revenue as it should be. Makes no sense.

Nor does colonising pokie revenue for the benefit of racing rather than the benefit of the communities from whence it is derived.

If I do bother making a submission it will be a 2 pager which is plenty to say what needs to be said about the cobblers in this review. I find the whole thing terribly disappointing, lacking thoughtful rationale and hardly worth the paper it is written on.

Edited September 15, 2018 by curious

[Justamugpunter]

4 minutes ago, Reefton said:

 

I just wonder though how much bulldozing Winston will be doing with this in order to satisfy his puppet masters and how much ability government departments have to resist the whims of Ministers. Especially if they cannot find legal reasons to (for instance) stop the land grab. Just advising Winston not to do it is not going to work

I'm quite sure that the DO KNOW that there is a lot of opposition to the M Report.

So far! the most important point is "foretold is forewarned'. ?

I'm sure that you are not alone in the process that you have gone through!  Hurt! Anger! Resignation! 

But will you actually be able to walk away!!! ?

I have learned from fighting many political battles that focusing of "what are the facts?" "what is just propaganda?" is always a good place to start!

Also  "who is there with you?"" who might be a fare weather friend?"  "who can not be trusted!"  "who needs to be defeated!!!"  "what can be won?" "what can be traded/lost?"

What skills are to be found in the wider group that needs to be involved in any fight back??? Legal? Media?  Research? etc.... 

Does a fighting  fund need to be worked towards?

One thing I have learned about the Racing Industry is most members tend to be on the Conservative side!  Meaning, more than likely it might be a struggle to get them organized!

Or Is All Lost!!! turn over and take it up the chutney!!!!  ?

[Justamugpunter]

2 minutes ago, curious said:

 

If I do bother making a submission it will be a 2 pager which is plenty to say what needs to be said about the cobblers in this review. I find the whole thing terribly disappointing, lacking thoughtful rationale and hardly worth the paper it is written on.

The big thing that gets me is how they when about it!!!  Knowing the alienation that must flow from their approach! Or was that part of there big picture plan!

Did they have knowledge of the 'harness problems' that were about to Burst Asunder!

About the 'intellectual rigor' of the report! that just be par for the course for this Industry! Propaganda Rule$!!  

In the short term bringing  brutal criticism on this  to attention of  key DIA players I think is very important! 

Giving them some bullets needed for any fightback!

[Huey]

It will be a submission to another crowd who haven't got a clue what they are looking at(particularly from the sale of the racecourses) and more than likely just going through the motions.