You have to be kidding? The Big Lebowski lol!,

[Brodie]

Who wouldve ever thought that The Big Lebowski would ever be racing, Self Assured, Copy That and Akuta lol ?

The Big Lebowski who comes from Southland and was a tough but not overly talented down south horse is tomorrow night racing against the best horses in The country in the Auckland cup!

it is now trained by Ray Green who won with it at its only start in Auckland a d had won well previous 2 starts down south but was beating average horses!

Could this be a rags to riches story??

[Gammalite]

4 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Who wouldve ever thought that The Big Lebowski would ever be racing, Self Assured, Copy That and Akuta

Well he won't be racing them at the end , just following those BIG 3 in some way behind in all likelihood.

the best 3 horses in Nz should trifecta this easy as Pie ! 🥧🍟      (you want chips with that?😂

They have the most exceptional '2 mile standing start form' including the last 3 NZ Cups and 2 of the last 3 Auckland Cups between them. 

Perhaps Ray Green is gunna use him (Lewbowski)  as a battering ram ?? and try some team driving sort of thing ?

2 years ago in the Auckland Cup,  Copy That was beaten into 3rd place by Amazing Dream with Mark and Spankem (Nat) , in some of the Best Team Driving ever seen on a Nz racetrack . (was The absolute best I've ever seen) check it out on replay,  if you want to see ALLStars at their Absolute Premium Best !!!!!!!!!!!!!!🏆💰.

so doubt that Ray Green wants that to see anything like that happen again....

[Chief Stipe]

13 hours ago, Gammalite said:

2 years ago in the Auckland Cup,  Copy That was beaten into 3rd place by Amazing Dream with Mark and Spankem (Nat) , in some of the Best Team Driving ever seen on a Nz racetrack .

 

 

 

[Gammalite]

Thanks Chief. can watch that over and over. The 'Perfect' race plan.

And probably Nat's very last win as a Trainer (with an Auckland Cup quinella) whatta great way to finish up. 🏆

Hayden Cullen with the Training credit last year when Self Assured won his second Cup with Nat still driving. (Cullen's gone quiet now at Telfer's ??) in rugby terms, it must be like leaving the Allblacks to play for the Wallabies in comparison 🤣😂

Tonight if Self Assured wins his 3rd Auckland Cup will be for a third Trainer , with young Nathan Purdon now getting the credits these days !! and Copy That can be beaten too. (by Self Assured twice recently and Akuta too)

[Walt]

19 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Well he won't be racing them at the end , just following those BIG 3 in some way behind in all likelihood.

the best 3 horses in Nz should trifecta this easy as Pie ! 🥧🍟      (you want chips with that?😂

They have the most exceptional '2 mile standing start form' including the last 3 NZ Cups and 2 of the last 3 Auckland Cups between them. 

Perhaps Ray Green is gunna use him (Lewbowski)  as a battering ram ?? and try some team driving sort of thing ?

2 years ago in the Auckland Cup,  Copy That was beaten into 3rd place by Amazing Dream with Mark and Spankem (Nat) , in some of the Best Team Driving ever seen on a Nz racetrack . (was The absolute best I've ever seen) check it out on replay,  if you want to see ALLStars at their Absolute Premium Best !!!!!!!!!!!!!!🏆💰.

so doubt that Ray Green wants that to see anything like that happen again....

Hey Gammalite,

I've seen blatant examples of team driving over the years. The 1988 Great Northern Derby springs straight to mind. Dillon Dean (Maurice McKendry) looked the winner on paper and Roy and Barry knew it. They had multiple runners including Godfrey and Duel Fuel. 

Dillon Dean led as expected and Godfrey secured the trail. Duel Fuel attacked Dillon Dean for the front despite knowing the lead was never there. Dillon Dean couldn't hand up with no passing lane etc as it would be race over for him. Duel Fuel was absolutely stuffed turning in and ran a distant last. Nothing said. Stablemate Godfrey nailed Dillon Dean on the post. Don Dwyer now a successful gallops trainer in Australia. Would Duel Fuel have been driven differently had he been the sole stable runner in the race? Absolutely. 

The Bru Czar and Franco Ice were both subjected to exactly the same tactics when multiple horses from Roy and Barry's team were in the field. They dominated open class races in that era. 

I acknowledge the All Stars used their numerical advantage against Copy That two years ago in the Auckland Cup but in a different way. Spankem ran sectionals that made it impossible for Copy That to secure the top but Spanken ran on it's merits and only just went under very much unlike Duel Fuel in 1988. 

I felt part of the problem was the driving of MM on Copy That. He was fearful of not getting a crack so got off early. That gamble absolutely did not pay off. The front was not there so he knew he'd be sitting parked against the All Stars for the rest of the two mile feature. Is there any horse in NZ than can do that against the All Stars in a G1 feature and still beat them?  MM tried to tuck in for a breather turning in but stayed there for just seconds. I'm not sure what he could have done better but he looked to be stuck in betwix and between. The moment he didn't have a dip for the top was the same moment he settled for a placing. The lead was never there so I understand his predicament. 

[Richie]

6 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

 

 

Spankem was sublime that day 

Went last mile and half in about 2.51.Once Copy That was a stride slower from barrier and with the sectionals they ran he was up against it.Was hardly team driving when you finish first and second.More like driving to give them both the best possible chance.

I agree Walt that MM was out driven that day.Cant wait for tonight.Will be interesting to see if Old Town Road is actually up to this.Should get a good run.Will Self Assured step quick enough from 1 to not end up way back on fence.Can Akuta slot in from out wide.Same as Copy That,does he go forward or back

Hard to believe Lebowski paying same as Old town Road and Kango

[Walt]

21 hours ago, Brodie said:

Who wouldve ever thought that The Big Lebowski would ever be racing, Self Assured, Copy That and Akuta lol ?

The Big Lebowski who comes from Southland and was a tough but not overly talented down south horse is tomorrow night racing against the best horses in The country in the Auckland cup!

it is now trained by Ray Green who won with it at its only start in Auckland a d had won well previous 2 starts down south but was beating average horses!

Could this be a rags to riches story??

Hey Brodie,

Good to see you still doing your thing  I have dropped in from time to time and read your perspectives along with a few others. 

The Big Lebowski fascinated me the moment he appeared on a race track. He's a huge animal that will be suited to two mile racing more than most and was always going to get better with age. 

Two horseman based in the lower half of the South Island underlined him to me when he was a four year old despite him not winning any of his 9 runs. As a five year old he won 3 times and was placed twice from a dozen runs. As a six year old he's had 8 starts for three wins and two placings.

His progress tells it's own story. He's getting better and better.

He may not have beaten a great field at Invercargill on the 23rd of April but it's the way he did it. Nothing was going to take the top from him and he left them standing turning for home. Not often you see that rate of acceleration with such a big horse in the home straight.

The easy first up run in Auckland got peoples attention who hadn't already put him in their black book but was no surprise to many. The state of the track and the horses he beat may have lessened the merit of the win but not many win their first start at Auckland by 11 lengths.

Personally, I think it may be a few months too soon to beat the stablemate and of course the All Stars who've had a mortgage on this race for some years. In saying that if he can grab the top it's going to put the cat among the pigeons big time. At this point, I think it's the only way he can win tonight's Cup.  If I were Ray Green that's exactly where I'd send him. If Self Assured takes the top from the draw, one of the All Stars will win. If The Big Lebowski takes the front he or his stablemate Copy That will win as The All Stars will need one of their two attacking the leader to assist the other and I feel that makes the blue team vulnerable. 

I'm excited to see two top horses from two top stables all going after a sought after G1. The All Stars are great trainers and superb drivers but now we see the playing field finally being leveled, at least numerically and tactically. One stable dominating so many of the big races is not good for the game especially if G1's just become musical chairs as many have been in recent seasons. 

It's Tough beating the All Stars in the Welcome Stakes was fantastic. It reminded me of exactly why I love this game. Well done Katie, Ray and the team. 

If I could get a bet on for Novembers NZ Cup, I'd be very interested to see what odds I'd get on The Big Lebowski. That race has his name on it for me but who knows what will happen between now and then. May end up starting favourite in the NZ Cup. The glorious uncertainty of sport. 

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Walt said:

I acknowledge the All Stars used their numerical advantage against Copy That two years ago in the Auckland Cup but in a different way. Spankem ran sectionals that made it impossible for Copy That to secure the top but Spanken ran on it's merits and only just went under

Yes for sure Walt,  it was a great exhibition of the team numbers giving advantage. (I'm a fan of it as long as ALL members attempting the formation driving have equal and every chance) Like Ashley Locaz did in the video on this thread as a member of the numerical stable advantage. 

Telfers had some good results with 'team driving ' too last year , at Auckland mainly. As long as ALL runners are given a chance to WIN , then I have no problem with stable-mates chopping and changing the lead , etc. to suit their own needs , and to beat the 'main' dangerous rival like they (Allstars) did to Copy That .

He (Copy That) certainly got the 'last Laugh' smacking them back with the last 2 Nz Cups since that race above that Amazing Dream won !🤣 good on him I guess 🏆

[Nowornever]

5 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Yes for sure Walt,  it was a great exhibition of the team numbers giving advantage. (I'm a fan of it as long as ALL members attempting the formation driving have equal and every chance) Like Ashley Locaz did in the video on this thread as a member of the numerical stable advantage. 

Telfers had some good results with 'team driving ' too last year , at Auckland mainly. As long as ALL runners are given a chance to WIN , then I have no problem with stable-mates chopping and changing the lead , etc. to suit their own needs , and to beat the 'main' dangerous rival like they (Allstars) did to Copy That .

He (Copy That) certainly got the 'last Laugh' smacking them back with the last 2 Nz Cups since that race above that Amazing Dream won !🤣 good on him I guess 🏆

The drive on The Big Lebowski by Herlihy would have to have been one of the worst I have seen him do. He definitely did not drive to win. That horse would have monstered them if he had have been put in the race. I think he could be one of the best horses in Australasia on his last two runs.

[Gammalite]

1 minute ago, Nowornever said:

The drive on The Big Lebowski by Herlihy would have to have been one of the worst I have seen him do. He definitely did not drive to win. That horse would have monstered them if he had have been put in the race. I think he could be one of the best horses in Australasia on his last two runs.

$20 Exacta with Mark and Nat  . $6 quinella can't beeeelieve I didn't get that 🤕.

Too busy mucking around with them in Copy That trifecta . and then that bugger didn't get 3rd. blast.

Self Assured sure monstered David Butcher on Kango for the lead at one stage. and then kicked again for a brave 2nd . What a TOP trier horse he is. The 'Chief'Butcher needs his head read not taking a sit on Nat at that stage when she pressed for the lead. was just a sitting shot after to get run over, so a poor drive by David. 

Never saw the BIG Lew. was he in the race ? 😉

[Richie]

14 minutes ago, Nowornever said:

The drive on The Big Lebowski by Herlihy would have to have been one of the worst I have seen him do. He definitely did not drive to win. That horse would have monstered them if he had have been put in the race. I think he could be one of the best horses in Australasia on his last two runs.

Probably in top 30 yeah.

[Nowornever]

7 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Never saw the BIG Lew. was he in the race ?

Being set for something else. Got told owner was wanting Copy That to win.

[Nowornever]

2 minutes ago, Richie said:

Probably in top 30 yeah.

Top five and will run track records in Aussie around some of those quicker tracks. Lets see how it plays out 👀

[Brodie]

1 hour ago, Nowornever said:

The drive on The Big Lebowski by Herlihy would have to have been one of the worst I have seen him do. He definitely did not drive to win. That horse would have monstered them if he had have been put in the race. I think he could be one of the best horses in Australasia on his last two runs.

The Big Lebowski has grown many legs in the last few months!

Yes he was vey unlucky tonight and went every bit  as good as any of them which totally surprised me.

As I say who wouldve thought he would be competitive in the Auckland Cup a month ago??

[Nowornever]

26 minutes ago, Brodie said:

The Big Lebowski has grown many legs in the last few months!

Yes he was vey unlucky tonight and went every bit  as good as any of them which totally surprised me.

As I say who wouldve thought he would be competitive in the Auckland Cup a month ago??

Yes he always had the size and the faster they go the better he likes it I could see him winning a Hunter Cup if he got to the front and rolled along.

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

$20 Exacta with Mark and Nat  . $6 quinella can't beeeelieve I didn't get that 🤕.

Too busy mucking around with them in Copy That trifecta . and then that bugger didn't get 3rd. blast.

Self Assured sure monstered David Butcher on Kango for the lead at one stage. and then kicked again for a brave 2nd . What a TOP trier horse he is. The 'Chief'Butcher needs his head read not taking a sit on Nat at that stage when she pressed for the lead. was just a sitting shot after to get run over, so a poor drive by David. 

Never saw the BIG Lew. was he in the race ? 😉

I saw the drive of n rasmussen the opposite. Normally she gets the tactics spot on,but in that race she didn't in my  opinion.Kango runs its best races in front and was never going to give the lead to self assured without a fight.Had kango trailed he had no chance of winning. Unfortunately for Butcher,he probably didn't think Rasmussen would persist to the point where it would leave both kango and self assured vulnerable in the finish.

You have to also factor in he beat her fair and square the week before by using the same tactics, which is even more reason to think the lead was never going to be there.

Having said that,its things like that,that made for an exciting race.Mark purdon again got the perfect run. He just seems to do that so often that you can't help but admire his driving skills,even taking into account hes always on the better chances .

[the galah]

I thought a top drive last night was A harrison on chimchurri. She knew orange would not run the risk of being blocked on the fence and showed good thinking by moving at just the right time to get the perfect run on oranges back. It was a move that the horse between her and orange could have made,but she read the tactics of the drivers concerned well.They are the moves that win and lose races,there being a fine line sometimes. But the better drivers seem to get it right every time. 

[Ludwig]

23 minutes ago, the galah said:

I thought a top drive last night was A harrison on chimchurri. She knew orange would not run the risk of being blocked on the fence and showed good thinking by moving at just the right time to get the perfect run on oranges back. It was a move that the horse between her and orange could have made,but she read the tactics of the drivers concerned well.They are the moves that win and lose races,there being a fine line sometimes. But the better drivers seem to get it right every time. 

A top drive also for one M Williamson. Very pleased for him and his Dad.

[Spatchcock]

1 hour ago, Brodie said:

The Big Lebowski has grown many legs in the last few months!

Yes he was vey unlucky tonight and went every bit  as good as any of them which totally surprised me.

As I say who wouldve thought he would be competitive in the Auckland Cup a month ago??

anyone who has been closely following him for a while...

[Walt]

8 hours ago, Nowornever said:

The drive on The Big Lebowski by Herlihy would have to have been one of the worst I have seen him do. He definitely did not drive to win. That horse would have monstered them if he had have been put in the race. I think he could be one of the best horses in Australasia on his last two runs.

I'm loath to critique the great AGH. We all know how awesome he's been over decades. Having said that, I'd be interested to hear his take on Auckland Cup night, especially the Cup it's self. I was left scratching my head. The Big Lebowski as we know is huge horse with a very good cruising speed. He has what it takes to lead and dominate most races or at least take luck out of the equation and sit parked. He did neither, in fact he did absolutely nothing. Was his first race drive on the big boy being in a G1 a factor? Was he mesmerized by some of the other big names in the race? Did he grossly underestimate the ability of The Big Lebowski?  The fact Kango beat Self Assured last start would of given the connections confidence to lead and enhanced his reputation. Self Assured had a serious dig for the top but it wasn't there. I was a bit surprised to see Copy That go and sit parked and allow the All Stars to have a softer run behind him and finish over the top. I felt The Big Lebowski would follow Copy That when he moved and then give his stablemate cover from the parked out spot. Stable driving perhaps   but how many times have we seen that? I sincerely believe The Big Lebowski would still have been a live chance from the chair. One thing for certain it would have been helpful to Copy That. When T.B.L finally moved the race was almost done and then Tony perplexingly drove him for luck in the straight......right into a wall. Not often you see a horse finishing unlucky full of running in a G1 two mile race. I think a lot of learning and debriefing will come from that race. I'd still happily put my money on almost anything AGH drives but that drive will remain a mystery to me until I hear otherwise.

Hats off to the All Stars.....again. Akuta is the real deal and we've all seen that from the get go. I heard an interview with Mark Purdon recently that confirmed Akuta was in the zone and he couldn't split his two charges despite Akuta paying twice the price of Self Assured. 

My question to come out of the race is this. If they had a rerun of the race next Friday night with all circumstances the same, would The Big Lebowski be driven differently? If the answer is no, I sincerely apologize to AGH.

Can't wait for the NZ Cup.....when is the Easter Cup as it wasn't at Easter.

 

[Gammalite]

On 5/26/2023 at 8:44 PM, the galah said:

I saw the drive of n rasmussen the opposite. Normally she gets the tactics spot on,but in that race she didn't in my  opinion.Kango runs its best races in front and was never going to give the lead to self assured without a fight.Had kango trailed he had no chance of winning. Unfortunately for Butcher,he probably didn't think Rasmussen would persist to the point where it would leave both kango and self assured vulnerable in the finish.

You have to also factor in he beat her fair and square the week before by using the same tactics, which is even more reason to think the lead was never going to be there.

Having said that,its things like that,that made for an exciting race.Mark purdon again got the perfect run. He just seems to do that so often that you can't help but admire his driving skills,even taking into account hes always on the better chances .

Well I guess as the result panned you are right.... Kango did win the week before (when leaving Self Assured parked out) so credit for that is warranted and to win the Cup he was gunna try the same again . So David Butcher every right to lead the race. and try and win. Nat having to ease for a trail again with the defending Champion after the unsuccessful challenge for the lead after the first lap..

I think she (Nat) would of Won if he (Butcher) gave her the lead (and Kango would of been strong chance for 2nd place) as he did run 3rd to Self Assured in last year's edition of the Big 2 mile race so has plenty of ability.

BUT... David Butcher thought he'd try and win the race from the lead , rather than just run possible 'good 2nd' , so good on him I spose for trying to Win,  ...... and I retract the poor drive comment. 

The whole field went nicely really  . bunched up.  finishing in a length or 2 margin between them all , just behind Akuta. 

An enjoyable high quality race !! (which is why I enjoy Nz harness racing ) 

 

[Nowornever]

2 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Well I guess as the result panned you are right.... Kango did win the week before (when leaving Self Assured parked out) so credit for that is warranted and to win the Cup he was gunna try the same again . So David Butcher every right to lead the race. and try and win. Nat having to ease for a trail again with the defending Champion after the unsuccessful challenge for the lead after the first lap..

I think she (Nat) would of Won if he (Butcher) gave her the lead (and Kango would of been strong chance for 2nd place) as he did run 3rd to Self Assured in last year's edition of the Big 2 mile race so has plenty of ability.

BUT... David Butcher thought he'd try and win the race from the lead , rather than just run possible 'good 2nd' , so good on him I spose for trying to Win,  ...... and I retract the poor drive comment. 

The whole field went nicely really  . bunched up.  finishing in a length or 2 margin between them all , just behind Akuta. 

An enjoyable high quality race !! (which is why I enjoy Nz harness racing ) 

 

Lots of questions in that race

- Mark Purdon pulling back and letting the stablemate back onto the fence in front of him

- Zachary Butcher saying he had not been disadvantaged at the start when it looked like he was.

- The start not being declared a false start when Kango went straight sideways into other runners. Would make you want to give up betting if you were on Old Town Road.

- Tony Herlihy not putting The Big Lebowski into the race and then being desperately unlucky in the straight.

[Gammalite]

6 minutes ago, Nowornever said:

Lots of questions in that race

- Mark Purdon pulling back and letting the stablemate back onto the fence in front of him

Yes that was a lucky break for Self Assured for sure  , anyone else would of had their horse up the inside as Self Assured eased back,  to leave him parked out after his early attempt at the lead. 

Still the Nz drivers do it well. They had a very rare crack at an open class stand at Albion Park tonight and I spose the start was ok. (only 4 of the 12 galloped out ) which sounds bad but these horses rarely do these stands. 

And Pete Mcmullen poured the pressure on the leaders a Lap out , forgetting about the extra distance for a moment there possibly ? nah .... his stable-mate rounded them up last 1/2 mile from the back, and won easy. driven by his missus. His horse was favourite and i usually like Pete has a go always . but that was rediculous and didn't give his horse every chance to win at all . at least the nz drivers all drive to win .

[Walt]

8 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Well I guess as the result panned you are right.... Kango did win the week before (when leaving Self Assured parked out) so credit for that is warranted and to win the Cup he was gunna try the same again . So David Butcher every right to lead the race. and try and win. Nat having to ease for a trail again with the defending Champion after the unsuccessful challenge for the lead after the first lap..

I think she (Nat) would of Won if he (Butcher) gave her the lead (and Kango would of been strong chance for 2nd place) as he did run 3rd to Self Assured in last year's edition of the Big 2 mile race so has plenty of ability.

BUT... David Butcher thought he'd try and win the race from the lead , rather than just run possible 'good 2nd' , so good on him I spose for trying to Win,  ...... and I retract the poor drive comment. 

The whole field went nicely really  . bunched up.  finishing in a length or 2 margin between them all , just behind Akuta. 

An enjoyable high quality race !! (which is why I enjoy Nz harness racing ) 

 

I can see your logic Gammalite and you may have been right but I could see another potential outcome of Kango handing up. The Chief (I far king hate that ridiculous name) had belief he could defy the All Stars by beating Self Assured fair and square at his previous start. I spoke about Musical Chairs by the All Stars in elite races over recent seasons. It's been all about controlling the race. They have routinely assisted each other dozens of times in what are clearly choregraphed moves. Rivals in races well back in the field know they have to get handy to be a winning chance but when they move forward, the All Stars park them and their chance at glory is gone. The All Stars on the other hand gently hand up to stablemates sometimes without even looking over to see who is taking the top.....because seemingly they already know. Not only do the best horses and best drivers then have lead, trail and complete control of the feature race, their rivals are working while they are smoking their pipes. I could easily have seen a scenario in the Auckland Cup where Self Assured took the top and then potentially handed up softly to Akuta. They then have complete control and Kango is three back on the inside (all dressed up with nowhere to go @ the ribbon of light...grrrr) and effectively race over. In saying that, I feel Akuta is a serious horse and won on his merits.

What frustrated me about the race were the tactics of the Green stable. Imagine Copy That and The Big Lebowski were All Stars runners. What odds would you have given on The Big Lebowski sitting on his hands doing zero in last place when stablemate Copy That went around and sat parked? I think 500-1. The Big Lebowski would have followed Copy That and then took the chair. He's a big boy with a good cruising speed so sitting parked at that point would have been a good option for him. Copy That would be on his back smiling. All of a sudden the Green stable have control of the race. Instead you have Copy That parked with the All Stars smoking their pipes and The Big Lebowski having his first start against top liners at the back of the field behind a stable that you just can't do that with.

I was excited about there finally being a stable with multiple runners that were winning chances going up against the All Stars multiple runners in a sought after elite race. Sadly, it never happened. There was nothing that unfolded in that race that even faintly suggested The Big Lebowski and Copy That were stablemates.