the galah

i would label you a very,very poor form analyst billy. the horse had won 8 races at 1200,but never beyond.So when you say it needed further,your just showing your ignorance.. Also had you bothered to look at its recent videos you would have seen runs beyond 1200, where the jockeys have taken off miles too early,only to come to the end of its run because it excels at 1200,not any further. .Always ridden poor. as to having its chance today. Did you even watch the video.did you even see the head on. Again,you seem to have no idea if you did. anyway,i won't engage in debating with you after this post as i know i am just going to get a silly reply like the last time i did and like the one you posted on this topic.. its tragic for the horse and the horses connections that the horse has lost its life.

you have to feel fot the connections of henry hubber and the horse . i've been following this horse for a bit now. always paying big dividend.Today the same, 45/1. It has to have been the unluckiest horse i've seen for donkeys years. race after race its either taken off miles too early or it simply never gets a run and finishes full of running. it should have win its last 6 starts easy really. today,same again,Jumps out ,never got a run the whole race and ran 5th without ever getting a run. At least it didn't hit the rail several times like the start before i suppose. But the very sad thing was the horse looked like it had a very bad injury when pulling up,possibly career ending.Amazing given the way it ran. imagine having that horse.

i had to smile when i read that forbs. It was a heavy lift,but good to see hes won you over for now.

personally i think you hit the nail on the head. the current system,if applied properly could work much better than it currently does. I've always thought the handicappers for many years simply haven't done a good job. theres always been groups prioritised over others and theres also been inconsistencies in how they treat everyone over the years. Not just recently,but it goes back for quite some time. Why don't they run more races where not only ratings,but money won in the last 6 starts,or money won in the last 12 months,or a combination of that and the number of wins,etc. if HRNZ were to do that they would spread the money won and races won out over a greater % of horses and their connections and that incentivises people to keep going. . Currenly the big winners are the horses who in the past would have been in about the 4 win grade. They simply win,get driven quietly for 3 runs,drop back to about r 39,put a claiming junior on,win,then 3 or 4 more quiet runs,then they are back in the same r39 grade they had won in, so they quickly win again and the whole cycle just carries on. and of course the 2 and 3 year old winners have always been advantaged. HRNZ's focus on the juniors is another example of prioritsing one group over another.. its hrnz doing what they always do,looking at a problem,saying well we don't have enough of this group or that group. Just as they do with the 2 year old racing,their solution is to introduce systems that prioritise one group over another. and thats what they have done with the juniors. They give them free gear ,free this and that ,licence fees,concession wins,more penalty free wins ,blah ,blah blah,chnage the criteria for being a junior to include people much older than there used to be,blah,blah,blah. the people cross subsidising the juniors include the small time licence holders who train and race their own horses who are battling to keep going already.Like duh.. When people think they are being undervalued and the system is stacked against them,they recognise that and it contributes to how they see the industry and whether they have better things they should be spending their time and money on.Its not rocket science to recognise that although currently those in charge seem even less aware of that factor than in the past.

i agree with you about the need to showcase the sport. No argument there. You need your high end races . its just how you do it and whether you get the balance right as far as promoting and looking after all sectors. i belive HRNZ and the mainsteam harness media's fail on both fronts because they over focus,almost to the point of obsession sometimes ,on the high end races like slot races,the age group races,the highend trainers and they also focus too much on junior drivers, prioritising them over the hard working grass roots participants.. so your talking about showcasing,well all within nz hraness racing are deserving of show casing,not just 10%. Harness racing is also losing the good will they have with so many who have supported them in the past. People may not realise it,but i believe thats been happening,Its being driven by poor decision making. And the average joe bloggs will be observing the silence of the people who are deemed the special ones and who are riding the gravy train. Rugby is nz's main sport. Nz rugby's 2025 vision:reimagining rugby. "we're future focussed, while respecting where we have come from.Lessons from throughout rugby's strong history,as well as more recent events,have formed our direction in a way that will look after the entire game from grass roots level to the international performances.We intend to grow rugby at the heart of our communities as we know that the strength of grass roots flows throughout the game." Thats a message your always seeing the successful unions stating.Thats not what you get in nz harness racing. Anyway gamma,enjoy the showcasing of the likes of the slot aces. nothing wrong with that if your into them. personally my interest in those type of races continues to decline ,mostly because i view the money hrnz have thrown at those sectors will negatively impact the sport in the future. Why would i bother showing interest in all the pre race media hype about something which is a reminder of how hrnz prioritse the high end.

sounds like the right pitch to give you the inside running in any job interview you may have with cambridge,auckland or HRNZ. But seriously,what you suggest is the same type of thinking that exists at hrnz and the nz media and the high end trainers. If hrnz see participation levels low in certain areas,e.g. 2 year old racing, They throw more and more money at them in the form of higher stakes,bonuses,next gen promotions,etc ,etc,etc. As to the trotiting slot race. Seriously,the media and HRNZ hype is all a joke from my perspective.Only hrnz,the media , the high end trtainers and gamma gives those races a second thought. Nobody else cares in the real world no matter how much they hype them up.. Actually thats not quite true,what most do give some thought is wondering why the media and hrnz are obsessed with those type of races,when no one else is.

that question implies you think that is relevant in a certain way. well,yes i believe its relevant,but not in the way you imply. ask yourself this who's opinion should one listen to and value.. A)someone who understands how the industry works and is run ,who has no self interest at stake and who promotes what they belive is best for the overall industries health. or B)someone who understands how the industry works and is run,but who promotes policies that benefit their own self interests or prioritises the interests of certain groups within the industry . clealy the answer is a no brainer. Its A. so the point is,the having skin in the game argument is just a deflection.

brodie,as far as trainers saying how well things are going. Its people preferring to live in the present and judging things on how they,themselves are currently being impacted by how hrnz is currently running things. For example,if they are trying to get owners interested in yearlings they may have recently purchased at the sales,being a good saleman and highlighting the positive aspects of what your selling,is necessary,so they focus on the current high stakes a a positive and chose to ignore all the other indicators of the industries health. Another factor is these high end,high profile trainers are dealing each day with a lot of stresses and worries that come with running bigger stables. So theres a degree of,i've got enough stresses running my stable as it is,i don't need to overcomplicate things further by taking on board the stresses of having to think about things outside their wheelhouse. and even if they did take a look around them and conclude current hrnz leadership is squandering a once in a lifetime chance to ensure the future of the sport,well if they were to express those views publically, that would get them offside with the prople running the industry,the very same people who are currently prioritsing the self interests of the high end people,of which they are one. So in effect,these high end trainers are never going to advaocate for policies that will impact them and their client base. Its just the way human nature works. After all,its a cut throat world and people have to fight for whats best for themselves,so thats also part of why the high end trainers and owners are happy to take a head in the sand approach. so really its just self interest driving how some people who appear to ignoring reality.Its people with a stake in the game playing their cards to their own benefit.Its just the way the world and people work.Its understandable,its not because they aren't smart,but at the end these people who are supposed to be smart a playing a game that may see them negatively impacted most long term.And thats not that smart. But life really is never black and white,its always shades of grey and the nz harness industry is no different.

Well i read it before i posted it. It was definitly there a couple of days ago.The article was written after roger that had won a couple of weeks ago.

it says exceptional circumstances. if it was a vet certificate supplied it would have said.(don't give them ideas gammalite as they may get one to cover their arse after the fact).LOL. my guess is dalgety has been told by hrnz to put his horse in,even though hrnz would be aware he had no intention to start. in other words,hrnz and dalgety were all part of a plan to ensure the race was run and they would get paid the higher stake. Thats my guess. Thats the way it works if you observe closely enough. And the stipes have green lighted such behavior. Its actually quite serious .But no one will care because of who it involves.

I've been thinking. whats the point of scratching penalties. Its the most inconsistently applied rule in nz harness racing.I've posted about it many times listing endless examples. Hopefully someone looks into why the stipes gave roger that no stand down. On the face of it,it appears that preferential treatment has been given,simply because the trainer is a big name and possibly Hrnz were complicit in the deception. thats what it appears anyway. Its a very,very poor look. If not,simply state why.

i think the thing that frustrates the punters about tu tangata,is they don't know whether nairn is trying and just isn't much of a driver,or whether hes not trying and is trying to drop in the grades.My guess would be the later,although who can be really sure either way. Either way there is a down side to how that horse often gets driven which would frustrate anyone that bets on it. I always think he should put one of those claiming drivers on and just take the half penalties every time it wins and try everytime. the handicapping system is so biased in the favour of junior drivers over the likes of drivers like nairn. But at the end of the day,its his horse.

yes,thats all true But they have fun doing it. i think thats the appeal to those that particpate in their betting pools. they are trying to entertain as well as punting.The personalities are the key. They have a good mix. And they have a lot of well known sporting guests on,that are entertaining. i enjoy the banter the out the gate people have with their guests.they even had hamish carter as a guest last night.Seeing those guests and showing said guests can enjoy things related to the racing industry,is sort of refreshing and i think thats part of why it works for me. A one off show once a week is just the right amount of out the gate type format.i wouldn't want any more of it myself,but i like it the way it is.

So,in the last fortnight hrnz have programmed and run 2 2year old races at addington. So they cut the stake of the race 2 weeks ago due to such a small field. . well,tonights race,had even less,only 3 starters and they left the stake the same.. essentially,the winner of the 3 horse race earned $2750 more than the winner of the 4 horse race. why,because thats the way hrnz progrmmed it to be.they said the stake is based on the number of acceptors,not the number of starters. and you see,that of course means any trainer could essentially accept with a horse that they have no intention of starting, to make sure HRNZ pay out the higher stake.you can't blame any trainer for simply being too clever for hrnz.Mind you that doesn't seem too hard the way they programmed it. So what was going on with the stipes not giving the dalgety trained Roger That any stand down. surely,for the sake of tranparency the stipes should have told people what the exceptional circumstances were which meant he got off with no penalty . Don't they know that Dalgety,after roger that won 2 weeks ago,had reported on his website that roger that was not going to run tonight and was going out for a short break. So whats going on there.Can't the stipes work out that people may ask questions why they decided roger that wasn't to get a scratching penalty?We can giess why,but maybe thats why they are saying. Hrnz really don't seem too clever sometimes.

the point we often make gamma is HRNZ should have come up with a workable,financialy sustainable vision for the future of north island and auckland harness racing.They have had years to do it now. people don't believe they have. yes hrnz are trying. The atc club were trying when they did the apartment complexs. in the end what people care about is whether policy and decision making is good,bad or indifferent.Its the poor policy and decision making which is the reason for any criticism. no one understands why a business wouldn't want to restructure in a way that ensures their future.Thats what i think people struggle most with when it comes to hrnz policy towards the atc.

my take is,no one in power at the atc or hrnz or the media want to talk about the atc anymore.They would rather ignore it. Everyone knows its a joke. everyone knows hrnz policy towards the atc will hurt nz harness racing everywhwere in years to come,especially auckland. I think mr steele,when last asked about the atc,put his fingers in his ears and starting cheerfully singing.

brodie,nowornever,gamma,you all make very good points that i i wouldn't argue against. i believe the questioning that gets mentioned in canterbury stipes reports,even if it is after the fact and often involves what some think may be obvious answers ,is still very important as the sport needs ot be giving that perception of oversight,for the publics perspective that everything is above board. you also see canterbury stipes question drivers tactics,especially when it comes to a lack of vigour in a finish or not making obvious moves.Now i note that never gets criticised on this forum and i think that is because everyone likes to see that type of oversight. if we go back to that old minefield,operation inca,i always argued and even highlighted some of the races involved before operation inca ever became public knowledge,,and that the stipes oversight was lacking.Some of the people involved appeared to have formed the opinion that they could take advantage of that lack of oversight.Now,i don't mean my favorite driver,b orange,i never saw him do anything wrong,but some of those others should have been getting asked qustions on driving tactics and horse performances.Had that been happening properly,no operation inca. so what i'm saying is,the perception as far as integrity is very,very important and the form turnaround questioning is just part of how that perception is put out there to the public and to trainers and drivers. The north isalnd stipes will never get any criticism for asking possible form turnarounds because they never ask the question and on the rare occassions you see something obviously dodgy up there,and it does happen,they just put the caps back on the binoculars and continue watching the races that way.

Who they question is subjective to ones opinion of any horses form. nowornever,i think your just likely to be very good at doing the form and therefore aren't surprised when some horses perform well. as to the stipes,the canterbury stipes intent is trying to keep the public informed and thats a good thing. Take it or leave it i suppose.. Its more information that some punters will appreciate and i believe implies that the stipes who do that have the right intent when it comes to oversight as well.

yeah ,all those people have been great for the sport and invested lots and no one begrudges them or anyone else whatever level of success they have. But theres been thousands of small time people who have invested heavily in nz harness for donkeys years and as a group they are of just as great importance. the point is,does the nz cup stake being worth 1/2 a million or being worth $1m,mean you are going to get the wealthy people like seymour,boots,harvet,stonewall stud starting or not. it doesn't make one iota of difference to who will line up. Like seymour,a man worth close to $800m is going to care. the nz cup is one of many examples of races with overinflated stakes being currently run each year in nz. I have said it before,the victorian cup in recent years ,since the stake was cut to only 30% of the nz cup,has drawn the best field to run each year in australasia. its why i ,when i watch people like that campbells corner video clip from last week ,i can't but think,what a .... so according to that bloke campbell, nz harness racing is going enormous and on the rise,with its small field size,yearly reduction in number of mares being bred,yearly reduction in number of licenceholders,aging licenceholders,reducing number of trainers with training establishments,turnovers only being reasonable compared to the year before because of the geo blocking,the auckland and cambridge clubs huge financail woes, i mean that bloke campbell,seriously,how could anyone take anyone who can look at all those factors and make comments like he did.. But heres the problem,its because you have people talking a load of ... ,that we continue to see industry money spent in a way that will really hurt the industry in years to come when they are in need of funds.

i agree with everything you have said brodie. what we have in common with gamma is everything we say is coming from the perspective of what is the best path forward for the sport to remain strong,in both the south island and the north island.thats something i thought we all should be able to agree on,but not everyone recognises that.. we often have posted about hrnz poorly prioritising the spending of the entain windfall and because of that poor prioritisation,it will limit hrnz abilty to invest in future projects for the betterment of the industry. gamma mentions that he agrees with the ideas i put forward for a training establishment in canterbury.And of course both gamma and i have spoken about our ideas for something similar for upper north island participants. but instead for expressing the view that hrnz spending a few million more on races won by rich aussie owners,instead of investing in a training establishment in canterbury,is viewed as being negtive towards the industry.. the aussie horses winning all the big stake nz races,all owned by mega,mega rich people who are in the sport as much for the prestige and the love of the sport as they are for the money.Those very same people are happy seeing their horses running in the victorian races worth 30% of the stake money,as is the likes of republican party happy to travel there for such races. we all know stakes will end up in the bank accounts of the mega rich owners. as ned kelly said,such is life.

i lke your positive post gamma. forever the optimist.i like the humour about the blinds. your probably accurate about people not replying to my posts.Not to worry.Brodies regularly replies and hes known as always being on the money and he mostly agrees with me.And you still reply. One day, if i ever make it to australia, i think i will make a point of looking you up. i reckon you are the type of bloke that i could have good chats with.If that ever happens i can't imagine we would talk about what we talk about on here,lots of wonderful australian things to talk about instead. by the way,the wife opens every curtain first thing in the morning.When i go for my walks it always surprises me just how many people never do. Most people even seem to keep all their windows closed these days.

yeah. as you say ,what will be will be ,no matter what you,me or others say. hrnz have used the entain money to create the impression amongst its stakeholders and investors,that the industry is going much better than of how its actually performing financially and numbers wise..And they have also used it in misdirecting attention from the declining numbers of the likes of horses being bred,those breeding them,licence holder numbers,field size,etc. Reinforced by selective,clever hrnz spin and the complicit media, is a strategy that clearly is fooling many. i'm sure,the strategy was done with good intentions,but good intentions won't help pay the bills in years to come.

don't worry brodie,its not just hrnz and mr steele who's saying everything is on the rise here. i just watched an interview called campbells comments ,a bloke seemingly well known in australian harness media. According to campbell's comments, new zealand is on the rise and going enormous. then just a few moths ago i heard gordon banks saying the exact same thing on a well known american harness podcast. you know,i listen to people like that and i think to myself,what is wrong with these people.They make out they are clever and obviously they are in some things,but clearly they are not as smart as they think themselves to be.. Its like these people think that way, because hrnz have upped the all these big stake high end races and their bonuses and then they threw some money to the peasants with the harness 5000 concept. I mean,even the dumbest fool should realise that doesn't mean harness racing is on the rise and is going enormous. but no,obviously there are people out there who are just plain dumb as. maybe its an aussie thing as well. You know,the dumbest person in the world with numbers could have run things and boosted stakes, with all the money they got from the entain deal. why that makes anyone think that equates to the industry being on the rise and going enormous,is beyond comprehending.. anyway,If you want an example of what happens when stake money is slashed,then look at the stats i posted about the victotrian harness racing industry,from their annual report in august last year. every indicator for victorian harness was looking bad. every single one from number bred, to turnove,r to numbers of industry participants,etc. as to the victorian sales,melbourne apg 2024,from the 111 offered,78 sold for an average$25,731. In 2025from the 60 offered 47 sold for and average of $17202. the melbourne nutrien 2024. From the 200 offered,126 sold for an average of $32,496,while in 2025,from the 147 offered, 108 sold for an average of $31,894. So the average dropped significantly in 1 sale and just a little in the other,but obviously there was roughly a 25% reduction in numbers was a factor in masking the level of the decline.i its just common sense and logic,that if the stakes do have to be cut in nz in a couple of years,the same trends will play out here. you mention this years nz yearling sales.My guess will be things will still play out ok. I if numbers offered here have been reduced that will artifically mask any decline anyway. Most likely the top end will still sell well and the bottom end struggle. also,so many people that are still remaining in nz harness racing only think of next year,not the 5 years time when their horses that are being bred and purchased will be racing. everything that happens in nz harness racing in 2 or 5 years will be self inflicted. Now whether it be self inflicted small reductions or self inflicted large reuctions,it doesn't change that its self inflicted. People in nz harness racing are going to get the econominc circumstances that they,themselves have participated in creating. No one shoukld ahve any sympathy for anyone in nz harness racing if tough times do fall on particiapnts in yera sto come.I certainly wouldn't have any. Now obviously, we all hope its not too bad,but many of us think it will be reductions in everything. Personally i still think their are still some factors that will mitigate it turning really bad,but its inevictable it will be reductions. the scale of any reductions is the unknown factor but it will become evident in the next year or so once the greyhounds are gone and the first year of geo blocking has played out with the impact of that being better known. ll.l Then you have the current decison of hrnz to anchor the rest of nz harness to the syrvival of harness rwacing at aleaxandra park and the inpact of that .. As to turnover figures you mention,transparency seems mostly applied when they want to promote good confidence building news. We are always hearing media say,turnoverts are up. But as i have said before,any fool should be able to work out,even if income does happen to be up,if you spending at a greater rate then you eat into your cash reserves. So these people who tell us turnovers are mathmatically stupid. And tyhey are right. Many people actually are.But not everyone is.

i think even if they come anywhere near break even its a winner for betcha. i assume the people that invest in the pools gat paid out back into their betcha accounts(i assume) and then keep playing away through the week ,on the punt themselves, with what they got back,even if its not much .And a lot of those people would probably never put money in as regular as they do with the out the gate crew.The people who invest in the out the gate concept don't appear to be your knowledgable harness racing fans,so getting that type of customer engaged is a plus. Now,i've always said the biggest problem for harness racing is the harness product served up on thursday nights. cambridge is at the low end of a lot of things. Its not as competitive as anywhere else and i often think even some of the favorites ,if drawn bad ,simply go around for a quiet run. Theres also too many negative drives on horses with cahnces and the oversight by the stipes there self perpetuates what i've just said. And of course the over saturation of north island racing contributes significantly to watering down the quality of theat product. then the manawatu product,i think it a more competitive product,but the form can be quite inconsistent i guess because horses who travel and who back up within a couple of days away from home,often don't perform as consistently. Its the same as the likes of the west coast racing. and because of that,you have the out the gate crew betting on harness racing because thats what they are suppoosed to do,but its a common theme for them that you don't often get a fair run for their money. so,even though harness racing is being showcased to a different customer from the previous thursday night follwers,its the quality of tyhe harness product provided on those nights which can paint the industry in a negative way. Thats not the out the gate peoples fault. also,obviously many regulart trackside harness followers seem to dislike the concept. On one hand they accept that less and less people were watching,evenn professing to not watch themseleves ,then they complain they don't like something new,even though they weren't really watching it anyway. people can be hard to please sometimes.

not sure.they inferred they didn't get a collect at the trots ,with all their horses breaking.