the galah

gammalite would be the expert on those,but i have seen lots of races run from the stands at albion park. But nearly every race i've seen run from a stand has horses starting off handicaps and 95% seem to be for trotters. So obviously queensland run so many for trotters from a stand,compared to their pacers, is because they realise they have to have handicap races to make them a more viable betting proposition.In other words if they ran those races as mobiles with the same horses,the ones off the front wouldn't have much chance. Same reason we have handicaps here .So they recognise as well that not all races can be run as mobiles. And queensland has a different routine when setting their stands. The horses turn in and face the right way,then they bring the tapes across the horses off marks.so the horses are standing still for a lot longer than even peter lamb used to. can you see the big fields at tracks like addington standing there that long? you have pointed to a routine that does work for that state.. The horses over there seem to get used to it and don't play up much. as gammalite pointed out one time,they even have horses side on off the ur when they say go. While that may help some begin,those horses generally always are disadvantaged in my opinon. I don't know why they allow that myself . queensland also often certainly have their share of breakers. Maybe thats a trotting thing for them. but would that work in new zealnad? I think no with the current crop of horses being so used to the current routine. But in the future,yes,but with the proviso that many nz trainers would have to educate their horses better and differently and that any new horse that qualified from a stand would have to prove it could do that.and that would take time to filter through. Maybe they could try it with the trotters first. Having said that ,my guess would be everyone would say,nah,what we had was better anyway..

doesn't matter whether they are walking or standing at the end of the day,what matters is all horses get a fair start. like i said earlier,peter lamb got so much criticism,because he tried to stick to the stand (not moving)starts. i remember too well with mr lamb,your horse stands there ,not moving for 2 minutes,then after 2 minutes of horses being pulled into postion,while others backed away,another plays up,another backs away,then though and behold he lets them go just when your horse thats stood there for 2 minutes perfectly, moves a wee bit one way,so is off balance and breaks and then you get made unruly.Thats why he got so much criticism. And races starting on time is very important with the cluttered racing coverage. The $ invested by australian punters is of such significance and they don't want to be having a bet on a race,only for that race to disappear off the trackside channel because they are a minute or two late.I mean have a bet at a meeting where that happens yourself,and you would soon give up betting on the rest of the races from there. I mean think about this,you could do the opposite of what some are suggesting ,in all races being mobiles,.Make all races stands and horses,drivers and trainers would all become more accustomed to all races being stands,would be trained better for them and the horses would adapt better to them. That would be better than this chopping and changing ,one start to the next. But that ain't going to happen either. i remember the days,,when jack mulcahy started the races. He was a very fair man. He wanted everyone to have a fair start and horses were better trained for satnds,because they had to be to get the best results. but those days are gone,horses just don't seem to be trained as well as they used to be to stand still then go.Maybe its a breeding thing to a degree,maybe its all the chopping and changing from stands to mobiles,but i really do think a lot is the way they are prepared and the time,or lack of,that goes into teaching a horse to stand and then begin. i mean obviously thats a factor as some trainers always have well mannered stand horses and others don't For example the telfers break an awful lot of stands. I guess they just don't focus on teaching that aspect as much as say some like peter davis or mark jones or de fillipi or whoever. So if you do think all races should be mobiles,what are you going to do with the races that are currently run as handicaps to provide a betting product without hot favorites. Its all well and good to point out an issue ,but you have to something better to change to. personally i think a lot comes down to the drivers. Watch sam ottley. Watch her routine most times in the preliminaries.. Punters just have to factor those things when they make an investment. They always have had to previously,i mean i understand as a punter its very frustrating sometimes to see your horse get a bad start,but is it really the starters fault each time?Sometimes for sure it is, but not as much as people make it out to be,in my opinion.

Were yesterdays starts really that bad? I've just watched them all again i couldn'r see much wrong with them. Everyone had a chance at a fair start to me? that major hipster is one switched on standing start horse. The horse,driver and trainer deserve credit for having it beginning so fast as soon as the tapes go.

Thats an important point. Another point is,when mr lamb was starter , he often tried holding them until everyone was standing and all that did was lead to more horses moving around and horses who had stood perfectly for a minute or two often ended up being disadvantaged,which really was unfair. people should remember that before being too critical of the current starter.Our current starter doesn't appear to favour any driver either. Fairness is important. Some drivers are more switched on to his routines,but thats not the starter favoriing anyone. Personally i have no issue with the standing starts continuing. i think the industry needs to keep providing both standing and mobile starts at all levels, as if you just run mobiles in the races that are currently run as handicap standing starts(with horses off marks)then you will get a lot more hot favorites,less turnover and realisticaaly mopres of much higher grade starting beside lowwer grade horses. There is no way to handicap in mobiles apart from prefgerential draws and in an 8 horse field a pbd means not much. So until someone comes up with a solution to that,then they will continue. Persobnally what i have a problem with is the 2 circle formation. I've never been a fan of it and its evolved into the starter not holding them long and the last horses to turn in,through no fault of theirs(just because they are drawn to be the last horse in the circle to turn in),are disadvantaged. Also i have a problem with the stips not reprimanding drivers who start too far back from the ur due to turning in too late or wanting a running start. If its good enough to reprimand them for being half a lngth behind in a mobile start,then how come 20-30 metres behind in a stand is consistently overlooked. Again i think they is partly due to the 2 circle formation also. as i've suggested previously,part of the solution is also in having less horses off the front line on tracks like addington. And also i would point out,while all drivers are trying to get the best start possible,some are simp[ly much better at it than others. For example i watched a horse win a non win trot at winton a couple of weeks ago.Initially i thought there may be an inquiry because the driver,nathan williamson had his horse btween 5-20 metres in front of all the other horses off the ur. And he didn't draw the inside ur. But after watching the replay it was obvious,he simply was mopre switched on than the other drivers and got his horse into postion quicker .

he may have got an advantage,but his first couple of stride,where he paced are where his quick forward momentum started,and he only galloped,for 3 or 4 strides we've all seen many horses start off in a gallop and gain an adavantage before the driver has a chance to react and restrain the horse. Drivers can't be mind readers and their is a split second reaction time before that restrain that is reasonable. in my opinion,i'm surprised the inquiry proceeded. I mean,if they put major hipster out,then that would set a precedent that would see endless inquiries ,as they would have to look at every breaker who may gain a slight advantage in the first 30m when breaking and every trotter that gallops late in a race for 3 or 4 strides and doesn't immediately lose ground .It would be a whole can of worms that would cause everyone,including opunters,many headaches and claims of inconsistencies.

yes,she is the best. but the judicial panel who made the decision to dismiss the charges failed to uphold the reasonable expectations of the punters who invested on that race. Its not that big a deal,but i do feel the whole thing illustrated those involved took for granted punters participation on amateur races.So i won't be participating again.thats just me.

i've just been through the top 200 trainers in nz ,and from my knowledge every one is european apart from luk chin(asain) and i think phil williamson(pacific island?). it would be the same with the drivers. I think monika ranger and t hanara have pacific island families,but they would be about the only 2 i could name. thats not a negative or positive,its just reality. i think we should run HRNZ brodie. As we seem to have more grasp of reality and how those realities impact the sport currently and in the future.lol

i agree. you know, you've just made a very important point. Its a point,which you can see clearly,i can see clearly,but just slips through to the keeper for so many. I'm sure for many of those in charge at hrnz,they don't get it and i've even read on this forum ,someone who says they live in auckland,refer to asains in auckland,as if their ethnicity somehow is a postive for harness racing. I've known many dozens of asain gamblers,but the ones i've known gamble on the pokies and particularly at the casino's(that is the better off ones prefer the casino's)And the younger ones prefer those types of gambling on line. I mean,as i've posted before,go to a harness race meeting,look around you. Go to a local tab,look around you. people of european and maori ethnicity are those who make up the bulk of harness racing customers. Its not only asains who gamble in low numbers on harness racing,its pacific peoples,middle eastern people,african nations. looking at the stats,a couple of years ago,31% of aucklanders were asain,17% pacific people and 3% middle eatern,latin american and african. So thats half of aucklands population that have ethnicity that is very unlikely to ever be involved in harness racing.

actually i just mentioned that on another thread. Ben hope got it wrong and started much wider than he should have and gave those outside him lilttle room to take up their positions. He accepted he was in the wrong and got a $400 fine. Have a look at the huge gap between the horse on u1 and the b hope horse that drew u2. And see how that lead to the congestion outside mr hope as a result.

3 more late scratchings yesterday. No room for tk megatsr to fit into its place on the front line. Mind you the other 2 were a result of b hope starting about 5 horses wider on the unruly than the horse that drew inside him.That was a bit odd.. he got a $400 fine. Do horses late scratched still get the appearance money and still drop back in the rating system if late scratched?

The powers that be keep telling us popualtion base is a reason why they consider auckland of such significance. Yet all the trends indicate as auckland has grown ,harness racing has declined in that region. In other words i think its just another example of flawed thinking that exists at industry leadership level. As i've said before,many of the indicators are urban sprawl has a negative impact on harness racing particpation in those areas. I mean,you don;t have to be einstein to realise that the cost of land and housing is so prohibitive for anyone wanting to have or set up even a small scale training establishment .Only the rich,the already established or those with close family connections are the ones left in the sport in those areas. And of course,as for auckland, many of those left use the training facilties that they are going to old.. Its a joke to think new participants will come along in enough numbers to maintain even the attrition levels in harness racing in auckland. The same problem is slowly evolving in canterbury. for example,in canterbury,there was a time when the best thing for people involved in harness racing,was they were established in areas whcih they kinew ,in years to come, the land would eventually become such a valuable asset. duetro urban sprawl.That applied to all level of trainers occupying properiteis on the outskirts of christchurch. Problem is now,land values,even in areas like canterbury have made it very prohibitive to even get a foot in the door.so its inevitable that the industry will decline there as well. Thats why i started a thread a year or so ago, suggesting HRNZ invest the money they got from the forbury sale,in an establishment in the area which still has significant particpation . canterbury. An establishment that would cater for all aspects of those involved in the industry. A possible stepping stone for some,a possible place to go as others dowbn scale,,but also very importantly an investment in a strategic area where,if neccessary in 20 0r 30 years to come,they could cash up at a huge profit and start the cycle of doing it all again and keeping harness racing going. Thats what they should be looking at doing with auckland,not some other plan,like they currently have, where they erode their asset base to a point where they can't. But,seems no one thinks like that anymore, Everyones about looking after special interest groups andonly looking a couple of years ahead.

Would the auckland meeting have goten any sky coverage in australia. Being a postponed meeting i kind of doubt they would have made any time available on their packed saturday racing channels.

Well how about that. The charge against c negus was dismissed. This is a forum where we give opinions. Well in my opinion,that decision is as farcical as the race. The moral of the story for me,is never ever bet on amateur races again. Personally i think i've probably bet on 95% of amateur races ever run.Well that will never happen again,i promise you. So heres the reality. They gave c negus a lengthy holiday about a year ago when she was trying her best,because they say she persevered for the lead too long. Now,when any fool could see in this weeks race,she should have made an earlier move to take up a handier position on a snails pace. Turns out thats an acceptable drive.. Try too hard and your suspended,don't try and your not.(same driver each time). What an upside down world those that made those deciosns live in.

The thing about all those changes,is once you lose your audience you won't get them back. recognition of achievemnents from your peers,most of whom may not have been ardent racing fans,but were aware the sport you were participating in was significant in nz culture,used to be a rewarding part of the package that was delivered when you had success. everyone who used to get a win knew people they knew or were related to, could have listened on the radio,read about it in the paper and seen it on free to air tv. within a few years, a couple of decades ago,that all disappeared. Strangely often driven by tab leadership decisions whose only focus seemed to be the bottom line. If your going to make decisions based on profit and loss,and a significant factor in that is turnover,then shouldn't you factor in what drives turnover.. I've used the example of pub tab's previously .Many of whom used to provide excellent service and coverage of racing. The tab's decision to reduce the % of their take from turnover,was met with dismay and anger from pub tab operators around the country.Many media articles were written illustrating that.They felt they were just being taken for granted and expected to provide a service and pay wages while getting very little in return. I can tell you,in the area where i lived ,when the melbourne cup and nz trotting cup were run in november,they were very big days at the two main tab's/pubs. The pubs really promoted them and the pub's were packed and the people dressed up and were still going home after midnight. then,not only was media coverage and exposure in radio and tv and the print media being reduced,the tab cut the %,so the pub's ,i guess partly also as a show of defiance simply put no resources into promoting those days. Within 2-3 years the numbers attending were reduced by 3/4 and people were home by 7p.m. and the gambling that used to go on for hours diminished. but it wasn't just those days that it impacted,it also was eroding racing from the psyche of new zealanders. I've always said,people badly underestimate the value of maintaining racing in the psyche of the nz public and they still do.But,hey,no one can ever put a definitive $ amount on that, so no one will ever be able to quantify the significance of it and thus no one implements policies that reverse something that they don't realsie is of such significance. anyways,what i do know for sdure is if i have a bet and i'm somewhere,i know can't listen to it on the car radio as i drive,the wife puts it on her phone but its often freezing anyway. So really i mostly don't bother betting until i get home. and from my experirience of going to pub tab's in tha last year or so,those with a terminal have no one to serve you as they just seem occupied cleaning or gazing into space around the corner,so i gave up going there. They didn't even have the fields up for the nz meeting on their wall and a tv that only showed one race at a time from that nz meeting. so i decided to use the local pub with the machine and wasn't sure about how to fill in one form so asked the lady behind the pub(i was the only one in the pub at that time),she said she didn't know but got her supervisor who said,don't ask me i don't gamble. you know i went back into that pub tab for the first time last week to deposit some money in an account. It took about 3 minutes to deposit 4 notes as it kept rejecting a couple of the notes. eventually it accepted them. The tab clearly have had no interest in providing good service for many years now and there vision is to get as many on line as possible.

i remember ,as a kid.my father listening to the radio to hear the them read out the fields for the 2nd day at oamaru,i think it was maybe labour day,although may be wrong. Anyway,at 10 o'clock on the radio station they read out the horses names in each race,in order of barrier draws. thats when they had ballots. Talking about radio coverage,personally i think one of the dumbest things,amopngst many,was the decision to discontinue having a racing show on the radio.if they wanted to cut cost,why didn't they just put the trackside coverage on and have someone making sure the races,whenevr they were from got played. and when no races on just play the interviews that they used to do. ir was a bit like getting rid of free trackside tv. As i've said before,people massively underestimated the number of people who used to watch racing,who put small bets on or didn't bet. i remebr when trackside when pay to view,i had dozens of people telling me how they were disappointed they would no longer get to see trackside. Thse were people,often elderly or those with lower incomes,who watched racing. Mind you,back then there wasn't the wall to wall racing coverage and people followed racing because they genuinely liked to see those involved,and the pre race interviews.Most of those people had partners who they watched it with and families who would go around and visit and watch the races with them.. It wasn't until free to air trackside went,that i found out so many people knew the horses we had and fmade a point of following them,simply because they knew us.And of course when they got rid of trackside you couldn't get a motel or hotel with it. I remember drivibng around dunedin with the wife,going to 6 different motels,thinking iwe would watch the friday nights races,but none of them had trackside coverage and just ended up just giving up on that. so many of the reasons for the decline of racing have been short sighted own goals.

yes ,that always happens when they are run in those timeslots near ther end of the working day. like you said,it would be people in pubs,people home from work,with the australian $ invested significantly impacting turnovers around that time. Most likely that last race also got some ok lead in sky coverag as well. another factor with that last race was there was a false start and the race was delayed. Whenever that happens and its in a good time slot to start with,the pools always increase.The tabcorp win pool on the last race was $11,000.more than double any other ace.And 5 times more than the early races for them. from my observations,a part of that increase has to be a lot of people,most likely in australia,betting on what they think is the next race to go. About a year ago i gave the example of how a win pool for a race at the gore trots run in the right time slot,got to just under $20,000 after being delayed for close to half an hour,but it continued to pop up as the next race to go every 10 minutes or so.. it just goes to show who's really betting. Only problem with those delayed races is they sometimes won't get shown on aussie tv so people over there wouldn't be too impreesed they had bet on a race from nz that they may not even get to see sometimes..

more TV one rubbish on tonight about the trump adminsitration. I just watched it,rewound it and thought,why can't they just report the facts. At one point it said about those deported to el salvador..."have disapperared into a legal black hole,with little evidence for their gang member status".. well ,even the mainsteam usa media who don't like trump ,have come to realise they are on a loser running stories about that angle,as even they realise they can't hide they were mostly deported due to the seriousness of the crimes commited. yet tv one ragain run a segment where they tell only some of the facts. had tv one just stuck to the story that a judge has said some didn't get their due process of an immigration hearing before deportation,then that is true. Actually,the case the media has been using to highlight how someone innocent has been deported ,has been imploding in the last 24 hours. It was all over the left leaning meida in the usa, that a loving family man, was ajn example of someone who shouldn't have been deported. They even had a democrat senator fly to el salvador today and demand the el salvador government release that person . but thats all turned to custard now,as the trump administration have released all the dretails of the mans interactions with authorities. Including drug dealing,wife beating and the fact he had 2 usa immigration court hearings that had previously ruled he was part of a ms13 gang and was deported,only to reenteer illegally again. Also why didn'ttv one mention that the people deported,like the bloke mentioned,if they returned will virtually be certain to get an immediate immigration hearing and be immediately repturned back to el salvador. you know,i find it bizzare that nz news media,especially tv one, still think people can't think for themselves.Mind you look at how they helped fool everyone about the covid shot i suppose. how about they run some segments about what the latest research is finding no,.That will never happen.

if you read the reports from even the media outlets that hate anything trump does,well they are suggesting a cup of coffee will go up about 50c. articles quote coffee shops, saying they expect to put the average $5.20 cup ,up to $5.70. 50c a time,thats going to break the bank for some. As to you saying he put tariffs on an uninhabitle island. i saw that TV one news story and thought,TV one, just taking more cheap shots with a story that anyone,if they had the inclination,would realise was full of holes. Sad,but thats tv news media in nz these days. The Trump administration put the blanket 10% tariff on every country/terrirtory except a handful like russia and north korea. The countries exempted trump obviously is currently wanting something from and they view that of more significance than what they would get $ wise from tariffs. So what the trump administration did,was say everyones getting this blanket 10% tariff,because it was simpler for people to understand that. Some smart arse in the media in the usa of course thought they can mock the trump administration by finding some obscure territory with only a few penguins and make out,hey look at how ridiculous the trump adminstration is.And news outlets around the world,the likes of tv one,ran with the story,again showing they think their viewers are gullible. You know ,it was a bit like that clip they had on tv one last night,where they asked some man in china at a trade fair,what do you think of trump. That man described trump as crazy.I saw that,rewinded it and the woman asking the question from the bbc was shaking her head and mockingly smiling at the man as she asked the question,clearly inviting such an answer. as far as the tariffs effecting usa harness racing ,i read a week or two ago that yes ,work needed to be done on negotiating a way around the tariffs as the effect on horses coming and going from countries like canda would be impacted. But,as winston peters keeps saying,they need to let the dust settle and the negotiations take place and peiople shouldn't get too carried away just yet.

perhaps i should have added,that was about 20 years ago when the auckland warriors were having a really bad run of losses and were at the bottom of the table. But their supporters always kept predicting,their form slump was going to end the following week.

I've decided to take a fresh approach and i encourage everyone to watch that race with the volume up a little,a few more times.. i'm guessing the more you watch iit the more you smile. You know, it made me think about a group of about 10 mates who played in the same rugby team. After a few beers,some of them could get rather argumentative when discussing rugby,including their club matches,often the arguments could get quite heated. Amongst the group was one very laid back character ,who seemed to be able to put other goings on, within the group, in perspective.. well one night,when one of these regular arguments flared up,the laid back character stood up and said,"what about those warriors". One of the blokes arguing turned to him angrily and said "what are you on about" to which he again said "what about those warriors". And the whole group cracked up laughing. And from that day on,they still argued,but every time the laid back bloke thought they were losing perspective he brought out the one liner and everytime the argument would stop. anyways,most of those reading this are probably thinking ,whats that got to do with an amateur drivers race. well,to me,anytime you here someone getting a bit upset and criticising some for a poorly judged drive,just use the one liner. .....yes,but .what about that amteur race at addington when they went that 72.8 half. anyways,thats my thoughts on that race after watching it a few times. oh,and what was it m house said to the d roberts ,when he was parked. Maybe he was telling him to pull back. i wonder?

yes i agree with what you say regarding the cambridge race. It was an interesting spectacle as well. i agree the driver of the leader showed little skill in rating his horse to its ability, through the early stages of that race. only thing is the lead time in that cambridge race,while fast,wasn't that unusual and was similar to that of the non win race later in the night. Whereas at addington the speed of the race was that slow,that the commentator,trackside presenters and i'm sure anyone watching, were left scratching their heads as to whether they had ever seen anything like it before,and those on tackside made comments to that effect.I mean,what else could they say.If you listen to the commentary again,you can here the commentator trying to stop himself from having a chuckle during the running and to be honest,who could blame him. i see the stipes have charged c negus at addington. the opportunity to improve into a good position ,when the pace was so slow,existed for around 150m,(thats a good 10 seconds),yet it never seemed to be her intent to do so. my final comment is,C negus makes a wonderful contribution to the sport in the south island,,but like anyone else,will just have to deal with the consequences of the lack of level of skill/or perceived intent,that she showed.Thats life.

yes,i get what you mean by that comment and hes not a driver i would place much blame on as he ended up getting that 1/1 position and he was driving a sit sprint horse.. But the reason he was able to position his horse in the 1/1 ,was because the horse behind him,foveaux gambler,didn't want that position and preferred to sit further back,for some inexplicable reason.

it was hard to work out whether everyone was trying or they simply had no idea they were going so slow. the fact it was an amateur drivers race should not diminish in any way the expectation that any race that is provided as a betting product,should expect better standards of driving.

has there ever been a race ever run where you have to question the competence of every driver except the leading driver. Surely the most ridiculous display of driving ever seen by all those involved. I've often defended comments about amateur drivers,but that display was embarassing to watch. even when they were running slower than a snail could move,there were drivers refusing to take up the 1/1,instead preferring to sit on the fence. i wonder what the stipes will do?

yes,but knowing the state of play and implementing policies that are maximising funds received, for the betterment of harness racing, are two totally different things. You know,they should have one of those surveys or polls,where they ask specific things of industry participants. And i mean participants at all levels,not just those that have the ear of hrnz leadership. Like,do you have confidence in leaderships decision making ,to help you maintain your level of participation,,do you see yourself having a greater or lower level of participation in 2,5,10 years,do you believe hrnz funds are being distributed in a way that is helping or hurting participation numbers,do you feel worried about the future ability of people to make a living from the sport,do you believe industry participants over 30 get the same amount of support from HRNZ as those under 30, do you believe HRNZ funds should be used to prop up auckland racing,a multiple choice question where they ask,rank in order,where you think hrnz should be distributing stake money,etc,etc,etc I think we all know,if that survey was done today,the results would paint a very bleak of how most currently view the state of the industry. I'm sure it would also paint a picture of disconnect between certain industry sectors and regions.