the galah

You seem to have missed the consistency in the point that i make. That is HRNZ need to be fiscally responsible in their spending,irrespective of whether the races are for the elite or the battlers at cambridge. I have criticised both the decision to put unsustainable $ into stakes for slot races and into the tuesday cambridge meetings. I have said i think the tueday race meetings are a good idea,but the $8,000 stakes they pay at cambridge are too high. so to me you've missed that point going by your above post. To me,you want everyone to race for good money and for everyone to be able to sustain their involvement in the industry.Thats fair enough,but i don't believe its possible to have stakes at the level you suggest they should. I'm pointing out that money doesn't grow on trees and there is only so much of it to go around and that if you overspend on one thing then someone else will miss out. i've never heard brodie say they should dogmeat any horses,as you have said he has. I have heard him question why some horses are persevered with given the costs and returns for some who aren't earning.To be honest,i think thats the way 90% of trainers operate with the horses they train and discard now days.Believe it or not,thats not the way i see things,but i've come realise my approach has been unrealistic. Then you said i said the slot holders were the elite. ...Thats not something i've commented on. I have no idea who most of the people that are slot holders are,nor do i care. I'm talking about the connections of the horses involved. The horses/ owners and trainers of them who line up in those races are the elite.Surely you must realise that HRNZ have already pumped huge extra money into the stakes for many other races that they will have oppotunity to run in before the end of the year and also into the bonuses they have earnt that hrnz gave them along the way. And no,neither i nor brodie have ever said we are against slot races. You can say it as much as you like,but i have never said that nor have i read where brodie has. What we both have said is the slot races are supposed to be self funding and thats what they should be. It should not be for HRNZ to divert stakes into them. again i say,hrnz may act like they have a bottemless pit of money when it comes to the elite races,but they don't when it comes to the average races. As to nz gallops having them soon. They already have them planned for riccarton next year.

i agree . Harness racing is on a pathway of self inflicted decline. HRNZ decision to inject the extra cash into the top end is yet another example of how they window dress with a facade. HRNZ have a deliberate policy,enabled by harness reporting media,of rewarding the elite,the highly visible. Harness racing used to be like a pyramid,built on a solid base of participants with the money trickling down from the top to the bottom at a rate that was enough to see each layer of the pyramid survive and each layer of the pyramid also felt there was a chance of them getting higher on the pyramid and the greater rewards that went with that. That basic design of the pyramid has gone out the window and its inevitable that the current design is unsastainable. So brodie and myself,with our comments,are pointing out the above. Not because we don't want those at the top end to be rewarded,but because we don't want those at the top end to be rewarded at the expense of the viability of the industry as a whole.

thats interesting. Obviously many people agree with you,hence the value he went for. the horse would have been up and going since an early yearling. Alan clark is very good at getting young trotters going. Probably one of the best. people underestimate that part.But with that,you can't help but factor in whether that will take a toll on its longevity.The feiry ginga was the exception to that rule,but my theory on him was that he was so dominant as a 2 year old and early 3 year old,that he was winning without over extending himself and therefore his body wasn't under as much stress as compared with imperial command, who while competitive,wasn't quite up with the very best 2 year olds and was always busting a gut to run just behind the placegetters.. In his last standing start he refused to move at the start and took no part ,then he trialed at ashburton and totally out of character made a break during the running,galloping for 500m. And why did he break? He seems to have been hanging a little ,moreso just recently. Maybe its just a habit or maybe its because he has some soreness. Who can tell for sure. He was stood down a month ago because of soreness in a hind leg,but soon bounced back and ran 3rd a couple of weeks later. That soreness may have been related to when he went on the grass and ran over the pathway to the greyhound track at addington. and of course 1 penalty free non tote 2year old win and 1 tote win from 48 starts. Maybe he will turn out to be a good buy at $21,000 like you say,but in my opinion,whoever bought him,overpaid for him.

sounds like an r18 warning should have come with that post?

Imperial command sold for $21,000 on gavel house today. I started this thread about how harness horses aren't worth much,and then that comes along. I'm very, very surprised that someone would pay anywhere near that for him. Seemingly there were many chasing him including offn racing i think it was. He's had 48 race day starts and about 20 official trials and workouts and is only 3. He had the 1 raceday win(i backed him that day) and 1 other win in a non tote 2year old 3 horse race. His last run at the trials, he performed quite out of character in bolting in a wild gallop for the last 500m. well done to alan clark for getting such a big price.I know he has sold some others that have gone on ok after being sold,but then again there have been others that haven't. also sold was vinchetto for $4,000 ,a horse with 3 placings from 10 starts for mathew williamson. I know that ones no champ,but he seemed to be a little under valued to me. then you had Ya know. She had the 3 wins and 8 placings from 28 starts. shes a 6 year old broodmare with a speeding spur foal at foot. That package went for only $1500. Being a rating 49 she may well be able to resume racing in the future you would think, as she won when in foal. $1,500 for ya know and $21,000 for imperial command. go figure.

Thats the thing isn't it,they don't seem to rate the intelligence of those they are trying to deceive. on 9 september HRNZ announced the appointment of matthew peden as the new head of racing and wagering. Peden said...we need to increase race starts per horse per year,we need to increase market share and turnover and we need to do something about foal numbers. Well,if you read this mr peden,what i think you need to do is tell us your going to formulate some strategy for harness racing to be conducted in timeslots that maximise sky 1 coverage.He needs to start putting data together to prove how important it is and then he needs to come up with a sellable plan. he needs to break down the data and show exactly how reliant we are on turnover generated out of australia.In other words how much of each nz tab pool is made up of aussie money and how much tabcorp and betfair and other australian bookies money is contributing % wise to nz harness turnover. As i've shown above,the highest average turnover on sky 1 was on friday night at gloucester park followed by a Monday afternoon at pinjarra.Yes a monday. the figures i gave above for western australia harness racing, show that every track that had sky racing channel 1 coverage had between a 25% to 85% higher turnover compared to the comparable turnover they got when racing on sky 2 on the same day. Mathew peden has only just started in the job,so we will give him a chance. But,he can talk about numbers bred,average start per horse until the cows come home. They are important,but none have the potential impact as sky racing coverage. I've pointed out before,at manawatu one night a few months ago,they had probably one of the weakest 7 horse non win races on a tuesday they have had up there,and its turnover was much higher than you see in 95% of the races at our premier tracks.Thats because it fitted into an ideal timeslot on sky 1.

David howman certainly brings knowldge,reputation and experience with him. Winston has found a good man for that job you would think.

so this is a topic i've harped on about a lot on here,but its a topic that HRNZ never seem to cast much light on. If they do,they keep it to themselves with next to no public comment.. so to illustrate just how important it is to new zealand harness racing ,we can look to western australia harness racing. Currently Western australian harness racing administrators are preparing a report directly around this issue. They have stated just how important they consider the importance of timeslots,its impacts on turnovers and the significance of that as relates to sustainablity of stakes going forward. heres some data on the difference in average turnover per race at their meetings that race on days covered by sky 1 and sky 2. Obviously sky 1 is the channel that most betting outlets and punters at home watch. tracks. Pinjarra-they race every monday-the amounts are the overall average turnovers per race for each channel.SKY 1...$245,000/SKY 2...$164,000 Albany-fridays -SKY 1 $206,000,SKY 2...$153,000 saturdays-SKY 1 $201,000...SKY 2 $123,000 Bunbury-saturdays ...SKY1 $198,000...SKY 2 $160,000 Northam-saturdays....$205,000 SKY 2 $135,000 Wagin-fridays- SKY 1 $224,000...SKY 2 $120,000 gloucester park-They always have sky 1 coverage-tuesdays $234,000 fridays $355,000 saturdays $232,000. so western australia have lobbied sky racing for greater coverage of their races on a SKY 1,but have said the biggest hurdle is harness races take longer to run than the likes of greyhounds and the gallops,so tabcorp who provide the sky racing channels, focus more on their profits from the products shown and harness racing doesn't do as well as the other codes or overseas gallops meetings. so they are trying to work out how they can get more of their harness into timeslots that get sky 1 coverage. It should go without saying that for nz harness racing this has to be one of the most crtitical issues,yet seemingly no one ever talks about it from HRNZ as being that. Why is that??? Like i said one time,had the racing industry leaders,not just HRNZ,and the labour government,had the foresight to recognise just how critically important this issue is and could have negotiated with TABCORP who run sky racing,and come up with a deal that was almost as good as entains offer,but had the cherry of a contract guaranteeing greater levels of sky 1 racing coverage,then you would think nz harness racing would have been better off long term.. But they didn't so the question now is,what are they doing about this issue. Maybe they need to have someone from western australia come over and start running the show here.

maybe the auckland trotting club need to take notice of how the melbourne racing club handle things. Apparently the melbourne racing club is struggling with recent debt due to a new $250 million stand and the proposed $160m upgrade of caufield to include facilities for an AFL club,the melbourne demons, to be located there. Mind you they are possibly selling sandown. Anyway,back to "pineapple". Melbourne racing clubs board meetings have become so acrimonious,that board members have had to sit through a 1 day mediation course. At that mediation,it was agreed a "safe word" was to be used at meetings,by board members who felt uncomfortable or felt their emotional boundaries had been crossed. And the safe word is...."pineapple". pineapple was the safe word used in a sex scene in the movie trainwreck. maybe the ATC could do something similar. Maybe,banana or jaffa could be more appropriate.

I'm not saying this is the case here,but rule 12.9(f) of the tab betting rules effective 28/10/2023- limitation on maximum winnings. it says"where the tab has reason to believe an investor or group of persons acting together... bets placed, over a number of days,using different accounts,using on line and in store....the total payout can be limited to the specified maximum . isn't the bgp an example of that,even if they don't normally limit them. Its like the bonus back bets.Say your household has 2 accounts,one for you and one for your wife. If the tab has decided to link them then they will only give you a bonus back bet on one,the first of the 2 accounts that use it. Also,i'm only guessing,but if you had a betcha account and a tab account,then if your a known winning punter then wouldn't entain link those 2 and allow the first bet but limit the amount able to be won on the 2nd account.

often the dunn trotters seem to pick up speed pretty quick after the start and newman used that to his advantage,even from the unruly.For a couple of inexperienced trotters their manners were very good yesterday. i see what you mean about major happy and it appeared newman may have thougth the same, as he seemed to want to keep driving it after the finish which was unusual,like you see some drivers do when they seem to think the horse should have done a little better. Having said that,i have had a bit of luck following major happy at times and the thing i liked about her, was i thought how genuine she normally is and that she keeps giving right to the finish. Shes always had a habit of moving her head around a bit as she gets near the post which i've put down to her sort of saying ,i'm trying my hardest so driving me hard at the finish isn't entirely fair. I think its become a catch 22 thing myself now shes had 40 starts,she sort of waits for the driver to get serious but also thinks its unnecessary.Horses are like people i think,some more complicated than others. also i thought the way she drifted straight after the start was a sign she may not have been 100% on the day.Even for a known slow beginner from a mobile,she was worse than normal. Maybe she was in season or maybe she wasn't feeling 100% or maybe she was over worked a touch in hindsight just before the race. Thats what it looked like to me. Then again her exaggerated head movements may not have been a result of any of that.

there you go. That group 1 fillies 2yo race obviously got some sky racing coverage in australia. By far the biggest win pool,race so far. nz win pool $9929. tabcorp $6303. same pattern as normal that i point out.

as expected the pools are very small for the auckland races so far. the first 5 races being win pools entain 3534, 2967, 1976. 3245 ,2788 tabcorp(australia) 856, 478, 435 ,889 ,1160 i keep going back to the point i regularly make. that is. The pool sizes are dictated by pre race sky australian racing coverage. so no, or next to no pre race australian coverage ,next to no betting. Thats for both nz entain and tabcorp pools. i believe people over estimate the number of new zealanders who bet on nz harness racing at tracks like auckland and to a degree addington. Like i say,when entain has a good pool size,most of the time so does tabcorp.Just look at the figures for tonight to see the same pattern. I would guess that 3/4 of the tabcorp pools would be about the amount entain gets from parts of australia tabcorp doesn't service.. Like on friday nights you sometimes see a $9,000 tabcorp win pool and they are always the races nz entain has the bigger pools.75% of $9000 is an additional $6750 australian commingled money that goes into the entain nz pool.Last night tabcorp had a win pool of $12,000 on an addington race. before anyone talks about nz betting turnovers,they first need to factor in the point i make you start with understanding australian tabcorp pools are different from the australian money which entain gets for commingling in the nz pools and then progress to the point i make. Now there is an exception to what i say in my opinion.That is sunday racing,especially canterbury grass tracks, attracts more nz punters and the % of the nz pool coming from commingled australian money is not as great . anyway,there you go,people can talk about the reasons for the size of pools,but if they aren't factoring in the point i make,they are missing an important part of the puzzle.

I went to alexandra park once about 20 years ago. 3 men talking to each other were the only people in the main stand . I sat there for one race but thought the viewing was poor so wandered down to next to the outside fence,for the next race, but found that an even worse viewing area.It was like you were below where the horses were. so i wandered up to the stand near the winning post,where the people were. I just chose to watch the race on the tv inside and watched the people all around. Next to no one bothered to watch the races and they seemed just there for the social side or something to eat. i left after that race.Thought if that was harness racing in auckland ,well they were lucky they had all those revenue streams because so few of the public seemed interested in it. I had been there as a kid and remembered the lines of punters 20 deep to get a bet on the tote, people always getting shut out and 2 stands full of people which from memory seemed segregated but the one further up the straight had good viewing.I remember as a kid thinking auckland was exciting,but how things had changed. The people who say auckland is so strategically important because thats where all the people live,to me are out of touch with reality. Auckland and cambridge racing need to be consolidated into 2 areas close to each other which feed off each other and provide faclilties that provide a far better harness racing product for the public on a far smaller scale. How about the concept of auckland focusing on their core business,i.e.harness racing. Aucklands past leadership blew it,the major cash flows are gone,it doesn't matter how clever mr mackinnon may be,he can't save the titanic which is aleaxndra park,no matter how much he tries. Also,i can't help think,why is it people in canterbury manage to drive to places like methven or rangiora or geraldine in good numbers,yet administrators seemingly think aucklanders shouldn't be expected to do so. do they not realise that apart from cup day,you get more people at the aforementioned tracks than addington. To me the whole auckland debate is another harness topic thats clear cut,black and white as to what decisions need to be made to make it sustainable,but for reasons which i can't figure out,decision makers just ignore reality.

I was driving around today and saw one of those v shaped advertising signs on wheels that seem to pop up on empty sections next to roads that have a heavy traffic flow.The ones that seem easy to relocate if you wanted to and are about 5m wide. and i thought well why doesn't hrnz or addington invest in 3 or 4 of those for display in christchurch or wherever. Once again they would display racenight and have the display broken into 3 parts,the horses in a finish,the winning trainer and driver(helmet off),and the winning owners. It would have the race sponsor visible across the bottom. each display unit would have different photos displayed and they would be replaced each 2-3 months with more recent photos of winners.Which ones to be displayed,maybe drawn out of a hat involving each race run over the previous couple of months or of the race named after the business where its displayed.The only cost would be the initial building of display unit and the photos displayed thereon. the key would be to have them transported to businesses with space outside that are next to areas that have high road or foot traffic. Each month or two they would be moved to a new location so as to get around the city and so new people see them.Maybe sometimes placed on new subdivisions with current vacant land next to busy roads if developer agrees. Heaps of possibilities. In return the businesses displaying them would have naming rights to a race,ride in a mobile,half priced meal tickets one night at the races,told of the exposure they get from naming a race ,whatever it is clubs do for sponsors. the whole point would be to embed in the psyche of the masses that harness racing is part of their everyday activities that occur within the communities they live in. Its there,its fun,etc.its people like them that are involved. The gambling side is not the focus,it is the people and the horses.Also its about promoting community involvement through sponsorship.The blue september thing is something that would fit easliy into the billboards displays.Displays to show cross section of people,male and female,young and old.

so very dominant. Theres 2 ways to look at the results i think. E stewart is really really good,but also the other victorian trainers just aren't much chop. Stewart dominated all the pacing races. Why are the other victorian trainers so poor when it comes to training 2,3 and 4 year old horses in those breeder crown races. Also i see E Stewart had a well bred ,former clark barron trained horse, Showsomejoy, win the $150,000 3 year old filly final. She is well bred with her dam being Somejoy,who barron trained to win 8 races. He sold an older sister to australia previously who has won 2 from 11 for j quinlan,Boots property being the owners. Showsomejoy was trained by clark barron as a 2 year old and was unable to win a workout in 10 attempts,generally going ok but mostly beating just 1 home. Her best effort was a 2nd in a balfour trial on the grass. One race day start saw her run 7th of 9.Shes a breeders crown winner now.

Do you think the jackpoting first 4's, that you had a few of last week, was a factor in your turnover figures being up? One had over $60,000 in the pool.Do they do break downs of pools where you get to see whether the likes of win and place were up or down. The number of roughies coming in may have helped the gbr maybe making figures better than they seem as relates to GBR also.I suppose thats part of the reason grass track meetings are such good contributors to funding.

the analogy of the airline i think is a good one. the thing is though,by airlines providing a service to some regional centre's that run at losses,it means the quality and cost of services on the profitable routes are compromised and tickets often expensive. Actually if you look up australian regional airports,in the latest budget the australian government just put in an additional $40 million funding over the next 3 years, on top of what they already fund them. Then of course most regional airports are already funded by the councils who provide all the infastructure and many councils are always calling for more governmant funding.Same as in nz. So,theres no local coucil or federal government to help subsidise harness racing,its all got to be done by the industry as a whole,so therefore it goes without saying that providing funding,whether it be for infastructure or stakes,needs to be done in a responsibly fiscal way. So its responsible fiscal management that the likes of brodie and myself support and its not accurate to say that we don't want northern harness to prosper. personally i think the answer lies somewhere in between what gammalite and brodie say. To me there is a place for late afternoon/early evening harness racing at both northern and canterbury on tuesdays. They have to be mini meetings with races programmed at stakes levels that are susainable and not a drain on the industry overall. And of course the handicapping penalties have to reflect the stakes.I believe that $8000 for cambridge is too high.Turnovers at cambrdge haven't been that bad,they just haven't warranted the $8000 stakes currently being paid.. of course also you have to have handicappers and programmers understanding that they should be running races with conditions which encourages everyone to start,with things like $ won the last 5 starts or whatever as part of the conditions.There should be races at cambridge for all horses who have run 4 or 5 starts at auckland for no placings and its just a matter of programming. canterbury has more participants in need of these races,so surely the leadership of hrnz should be able to see that by providing a smilar choice with extra tuesday meetings would create a more unified indutrsy. Only problem is there has been nothing to come out of hrnz,apart from the horse utiilisation group,that meakes any sense. So you end up with no confidence in hrnz leadership and what your seeing is people pointing out the obvious flaws in what hrnz are currently doing. doesn't all that seem obvious?

looks like harness racing on sundays is all about long drawn out days. Take your sleeeping bag as with the gaps between some races,you'll have time for a nap. They are also all over the place. todays its 25,32,34,40,29,42,43,25,25. just looks like entain have decided they want multiple gallops meetings on a sunday,and realistic gaps between the harness races have gone out the window. Seems another backward step.

Sounds like someone stuck in a tunnel,saying we still can get to the light we see at the end of the tunnel. But are they acknowledging the price that they will pay to reach the light,if they ever make it?

Another day,same problem with the hrnz website.Can't watch any videos,the circle just keeps going around and around.

Doesn't help tonight that the HRNZ website not working properly. I've been unable to watch any videos of horses previous runs all night and its still not working..

The $35,000 trot race was a nice even fileld. Over here we had the whale on trackside telling us it was a great betting field and good on the club for putting on these $35,000 races to get betting races like that. Only thing is,its just not true that $35,000 races will get any more betting than any other race.. The pools on those races may be slightly more on the entain nz pool. like the win pool was $2000 more than the prior race but about $4000 less than the previous 7 horse race at auckland. the tabcorp win pool on the $35,000 trot was less than the 2 year old trot and just because theres a higher stake race has little impact on tabcorp betting which gets less each race as the night goes on. So when i hear the whale telling us its a great betting race,hes not talking about turnover.

Ill give up the tipping.ideal delight just can't get around that last bend at auckland without breaking anymore. In hindsight should have realised that. Oh well, maybe at cambridge.

betting turnovers interesting tonight. That timeslot around 5pm in australia certainly make a difference to the pools.In race 3 at addington tabcorp had a $14,175 win pool,$5144 trifecta and $2865 exacta pool.entain had a win pool $12063,trifecta$10099. like i say,its got to be due to more exposure and the time people are at the pubs in australia. Like the following race at addington only had a $2321 win pool on tabcorp and $8139 win pool on entain even though the fields were quite similar in numbers and form.