commingled pools

[the galah]

I have been looking at the pools for the nz harness for the last couple of meetings.

And what i'm left wondering,is who are entains australian commingling partners and what type of exposure/ coverage do they give to nz harness meetings.

I had thought the nz commingled pools we bet into here, included victoria,tasmania,western australia,ACT. I'm not sure about queensland although Gammalite may be able to answer that one.

So the point i'm making is this.

Are we still getting victorian betting in the nz pools.

I read earlier this year that TABCORP now has the exclusive rights to all retail wagering and betting in pubs in victoria. I also read where they have to have all pub terminals within 5 metres of the bar to ensure no underage betting. 

So does that explain why NSW tabcorp can get pools that seem close in size to the nz tab. Now obviously this varies significantly depending on what meetings the nz meeting may be competing against.

But heres todays win pools for the 7 races.   $975(2 horse race),$7591(non win trot),$5216,$4323,$3979,$8933,$6975.

On one race they had an exacta pool of $3147,another race a first 4 of $7032. The quinella on race 4 paid $815.

Now you don't have to be a genius to work out that if the nz tote pools were commingled with those pools,then it would be a good thing for many reasons,in particular it would give the punter greater confidence to spend on our tote knowing a larger bet would not influence the tote so much.

So whats going on. Where is the entain NZ pools money coming from,aside form NZ?

If nsw tabcorp can get pools the size i quoted earlier on days like today,how come entain commingling partners in australia are performing so poorly,like they did today.

When you compare the pools of tabcorp and the NZ commingled pool,you have to ask,is nz harness being treated as it should by entain and its partners. And are nz punters getting a fair go.

 

Edited March 20 by the galah

[Gammalite]

40 minutes ago, the galah said:

I had thought the nz commingled pools we bet into here, included victoria,tasmania,western australia,ACT. I'm not sure about queensland although Gammalite may be able to answer that one.

We still have 4 TAB's operating in Australia.🙄. not a hope there will be a National pool.

State governments all want their cut of the HUGE Gambling pie so there is fierce rivalry. Each State of Australia virtually runs itself via state Government. we rarely have Federal help. so the states are like 7 different countries really. 

at the moment Entain runs On-line Bookmaking and controls 'Ladbrokes' and 'Neds' brands on-line in Australia to make their money.

SUPER-TAB or S-Tab is Victoria and ACT customers

U-TAB (formally Tattsbet then U-Bet until recently ) is Queensland, Tasmania, South Australia, and Northern Territory customers combined.

TAB-Corp is NSW. and they run/own SKY racing. Interestingly, advertising of Ladbrokes and Neds is banned in NSW pubs where TAB is , and they actually pull the plug on SKY to them after ENTAIN had made a deal with the NSW Hotel Association that TAB-Corp didn't like. (They are all desperate for all the losing dollars lol...😂 it's totally crazy here the gambling market lol)

WA-Tab in west Australia is state government owned and is separate again. They also run the on-line betting service of TAB-TOUCH ....which has the same divvies as you get in New Zealand , so perhaps that is the one that is connected to you guys??? .

Sportsbet, TAB-Corp and ENTAIN all tried to buy WA TAB for a billion , during COVID, but it fell through and ENTAIN bought NZ TAB instead. 

[the galah]

8 hours ago, Gammalite said:

We still have 4 TAB's operating in Australia.🙄. not a hope there will be a National pool.

State governments all want their cut of the HUGE Gambling pie so there is fierce rivalry. Each State of Australia virtually runs itself via state Government. we rarely have Federal help. so the states are like 7 different countries really. 

at the moment Entain runs On-line Bookmaking and controls 'Ladbrokes' and 'Neds' brands on-line in Australia to make their money.

SUPER-TAB or S-Tab is Victoria and ACT customers

U-TAB (formally Tattsbet then U-Bet until recently ) is Queensland, Tasmania, South Australia, and Northern Territory customers combined.

TAB-Corp is NSW. and they run/own SKY racing. Interestingly, advertising of Ladbrokes and Neds is banned in NSW pubs where TAB is , and they actually pull the plug on SKY to them after ENTAIN had made a deal with the NSW Hotel Association that TAB-Corp didn't like. (They are all desperate for all the losing dollars lol...😂 it's totally crazy here the gambling market lol)

WA-Tab in west Australia is state government owned and is separate again. They also run the on-line betting service of TAB-TOUCH ....which has the same divvies as you get in New Zealand , so perhaps that is the one that is connected to you guys??? .

Sportsbet, TAB-Corp and ENTAIN all tried to buy WA TAB for a billion , during COVID, but it fell through and ENTAIN bought NZ TAB instead. 

thanks for that gammalite.

Interesting you mention Sky Racing is run by TAB corp NSW and that sky pull the plug on entain at different stages because entain had some deal with the NSW hotel association.

Also interesting the change in victoria from this year where TABCORP have exclusive rights to victorian retail wagering and betting in their pubs.

So you would have to wonder,does NZ racing,especially harness,get maximum exposure on the sky tv channels and their radio channel,given the NZ product is now run by their fierce rival Entain.

You would have to question ,who was in fact the best partner for the nz racing industry. I know they chose entain,but when you look at just the betting pools and sky exposure it obviously paints a complex picture and not as straight forward as people within harness have been sold or are selling to industry participants.

I actually spent some time last night reading reporting and published minutes from entains latest AGM meeting,from a couple of weeks ago.I wish i hadn't started as it went on and on,but i will mention a couple of things i noted in a post when i get time.

[the galah]

So like i said earlier,the entain thing is all very complex and it must be hard for anyone to really be overconfident in how everything will play out for the nz racing industry in years to come with entain as their partner..

There seems good reason to think the former nz racing minister Kieran Macanulty,got a pretty good deal short term for nz racing.

But the thing is, when you read much of the information and topics that entain top brass spoke about when delivering their full 2023 financial results a fortnight ago,its clear that entain has a massive presence globally and that there main focus revenue wise is on sports betting,online casinos,poke,bingo. Also their top brass seem to believe its overall fortunes rely heavily on success in the usa,brazil and uk markets.

Sports betting seems the main focus everywhere.

Not once in about an hour of reading did it mention racing anywhere.

So the jewel in the crown that entain wanted in the nz acquisition must surely be the sports betting.

So the nz racing industries got 5 years of funding in the deal negotiated by macanulty,but given he probably used leverage with entain to get the deal over the line,with that guarantee of 5 year support of the racing industry,where are any guarantees what support nz racing will get in the future and how much entain will invest in promoting the spend on racing.

Obviously having dean shannon ,who is interested in nz harness, as head of entain in this part of the world is a major plus. But at the end of the day entities like entain are about making as much profit as they can so where does that leave harness racing in the big picture going forward.

Then you get that extra money that entain pay to the government if they pass  the proposed legislation if they geo block its customers from using overseas agencies. Wheres that money go and whens that going to happen.

It all seems very important to have a forceful and pro minister of racing in nz,so its a good thing winstons there.

But the whole thing is so complex. 

like i have said earlier,when it comes to nz harness racing you would think TABCORP,partly because its australian and focuses on racing more, would have been a better long term partner. Its like the industry and government have just looked at the short term $ signs,and gone with that and just hope for a good outcome beyond the 5 years.

anyway heres what Entains chief financial officer and deputy ceo had to say about the australian branch.

given how global it is,its interesting that he singled out the nz acquisition as a big winner for entain revenue wise.

"so australia,as we said in november,we are cautious of the market outlook for 2024.TABCORP,us and Flutter are calling the market down in 2024....

in 2023 we were slightly adverse to market.we were -6%.I think the overall market was more like -3%.So we have given up a little bit of share.We probably hold 17% of the market share,whereas we previously had 18%, but after a long run of gaining share in australia.The point of consumption tax mitigation issues that i referred to earlier,we'll annualise against that.that will give us some benefit,but if the markets down,we do expect our australian branch to be down

The BIG news,or the main  focus of our australian team is in fact New Zealand. so we continue to be super optimistic about what we can do in nz.Theres already the best part of 200 million pounds of revenue that has no ebitda against it. so once we drive ebitda margins to normal levels in the years ahead,thats great growth oppotunity for us.

The platform migration from the old,sort of state run nz tab business onto the australian platform is due in the 2nd quarter.So thats a nice catalyst and a real focus. So if you combibne australia and nz we have a strong outlook for 2024,but australia we would expect to be backwards."

So i does sort of make you wonder how they think nz is such a strong performer given we were told the nz tab was struggling.

 

Edited March 21 by the galah

[the galah]

7 minutes ago, the galah said:

So like i said earlier,the entain thing is all very complex and it must be hard for anyone to really be overconfident in how everything will play out for the nz racing industry in years to come with entain as their partner..

There seems good reason to think the former nz racing minister Kieran Macanulty,got a pretty good deal short term for nz racing.

But the thing is, when you read much of the information and topics that entain top brass spoke about when delivering their full 2023 financial results a fortnight ago,its clear that entain has a massive presence globally and that there main focus revenue wise is on sports betting,online casinos,poke,bingo. Also their top brass seem to believe its overall fortunes rely heavily on success in the usa,brazil and uk markets.

Sports betting seems the main focus everywhere.

Not once in about an hour of reading did it mention racing anywhere.

So the jewel in the crown that entain wanted in the nz acquisition must surely be the sports betting.

So the nz racing industries got 5 years of funding in the deal negotiated by macanulty,but given he probably used leverage with entain to get the deal over the line,with that guarantee of 5 year support of the racing industry,where are any guarantees what support nz racing will get in the future and how much entain will invest in promoting the spend on racing.

Obviously having dean shannon ,who is interested in nz harness, as head of entain in this part of the world is a major plus. But at the end of the day entities like entain are about making as much profit as they can so where does that leave harness racing in the big picture going forward.

Then you get that extra money that entain pay to the government if they pass  the proposed legislation if they geo block its customers from using overseas agencies. Wheres that money go and whens that going to happen.

It all seems very important to have a forceful and pro minister of racing in nz,so its a good thing winstons there.

But the whole thing is so complex. 

like i have said earlier,when it comes to nz harness racing you would think TABCORP,partly because its australian and focuses on racing more, would have been a better long term partner. Its like the industry and government have just looked at the short term $ signs,and gone with that and just hope for a good outcome beyond the 5 years.

anyway heres what Entains chief financial officer and deputy ceo had to say about the australian branch.

given how global it is,its interesting that he singled out the nz acquisition as a big winner for entain revenue wise.

"so australia,as we said in november,we are cautious of the market outlook for 2024.TABCORP,us and Flutter are calling the market down in 2024....

in 2023 we were slightly adverse to market.we were -6%.I think the overall market was more like -3%.So we have given up a little bit of share.We probably hold 17% of the market share,whereas we previously had 18%, but after a long run of gaining share in australia.The point of consumption tax mitigation issues that i referred to earlier,we'll annualise against that.that will give us some benefit,but if the markets down,we do expect our australian branch to be down

The BIG news,or the main  focus of our australian team is in fact New Zealand. so we continue to be super optimistic about what we can do in nz.Theres already the best part of 200 million pounds of revenue that has no ebitda against it. so once we drive ebitda margins to normal levels in the years ahead,thats great growth oppotunity for us.

The platform migration from the old,sort of state run nz tab business onto the australian platform is due in the 2nd quarter.So thats a nice catalyst and a real focus. So if you combibne australia and nz we have a strong outlook for 2024,but australia we would expect to be backwards."

So i does sort of make you wonder how they think nz is such a strong performer given we were told the nz tab was struggling.

 

The 200 million pound ebitda that enatin refer to as already there for nz. Editba means earnings before interest,tax,depreciation and amortisation.

[the galah]

One last list of tabcorp figures,then i will put this topic to bed.

Tonights tabcorp turnovers at manawatu.

Win pools, 1050,11206,8362,14320,15411,5633,3925,6926,6539.

trifectas.368,3501,2056,4293,3061,1614,1024,1134,1435

exactas,319,3795,2268,4118,3254,866,996,734,1981

they had other pools like duets,quinellas,first four's.

Like i have said earlier in this thread.

When you look at what TABCORP could have done for nz harness racing pools,compared to entain, then wouldn't you have to think,from a nz harness viewpoint, the powers that be were rather short sighted in going with entain.

TABCORP obviously can create big pools,often bigger than nz pools if they wish, by simply giving the nz harness greater sky coverage. Just as they can limit the nz harness pools with less sky coverage.Thats not something ENTAIN can do.Imagine if nz harness had worked with tabcorp as their main partner. 

Tabcorp sometimes has more in their nz harness racing pools than nz does. 

Just imagine if those pools were commingled with the nz pools. having bigger pools to bet into in nz encourages greater participation.

Thats that.

Edited March 28 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

Tabcorp 2024 half yearly loss of $670m.  Revenue down 5%.

[the galah]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Tabcorp 2024 half yearly loss of $670m.  Revenue down 5%.

Entains revenue in australia was down more % wise than TABCORP.I mentioned that in an earlier post.

Entain recently reported a global loss of 936.5 million pounds..So thats a loss of $1,966 million nz dollars.

TABCORP is aiming to have a 30% market share of the australian gambling market.Entain say they have a 17% share.

In august 2023 entain laid off 50 jobs. A report said cost cutting and numbers employed had occured across entains global business.It had employed about 800 people last year in australia but that number had reportedly been reduced by about 80 in 2023. 

the australian anti money laundering watchdog has an ongoing investigation which could cost their australian branch of entain up to $22 million.

I would have thought it just common sense that tabcorp,with almost double the market share and customers of australian wagering, when compared to entain,could generate the greater $ spend on products like nz harness. The turnovers i've quoted backs that up.

Obviously entain sweetened the deal enough for nz to think it was the better deal. Also,its the sports betting entain wanted most from nz.My point is was it a   shortsighted decsion to go with enatin and should there not have been more focus on the overall long term health of the industry.  

Edited March 29 by the galah

[Nowornever]

Entain is coming up on a year of running the TAB on 1st June 2024. Nothing much has changed. In fact I would argue things have gotten worse for the punter. The website is still shit with breakdowns on the busiest days. We have lost two iconic types of bets in the place six and pick six. Tote pools are getting smaller.

On the 1st June 2025 thats when things will really get bad as I think quite a few of the physical TAB's and pub machines will be given their marching orders and betting restrictions will really start to kick in for anyone that is deemed a slight risk to their bottom line. 

Despite Entain bosses saying things will be rosy in the years to come I can not see it getting any better for the punter. 

[Nowornever]

17 hours ago, the galah said:

When you look at what TABCORP could have done for nz harness racing pools,compared to entain, then wouldn't you have to think,from a nz harness viewpoint, the powers that be were rather short sighted in going with entain.

It is not always about who has the best product. Tabcorp probably would have also been the best partner for the upgrade of the TAB website back in 2019 but for reasons unknown the TAB decided to pay an obscene amount of money to SG Digital's OpenBet to give them the contract.

Glen Saville the ex TAB betting manager and one of the main instigators of getting SG Digital's OpenBet platform across the line is now working for SG Digital in a nice juicy role in Las Vegas. 

[the galah]

49 minutes ago, Nowornever said:

It is not always about who has the best product. Tabcorp probably would have also been the best partner for the upgrade of the TAB website back in 2019 but for reasons unknown the TAB decided to pay an obscene amount of money to SG Digital's OpenBet to give them the contract.

Glen Saville the ex TAB betting manager and one of the main instigators of getting SG Digital's OpenBet platform across the line is now working for SG Digital in a nice juicy role in Las Vegas. 

Thats a bit different from the TABCORP boss who resigned last month after offering to facilitate sexual favours for a victorian regulator from the commission who was deciding which company won the lucrative victorian exclusive wagering shops.

Apparently he lost between 5-10 million in bonuses.

from august ,TABCORP will have exclusive wagering rights to retail  in victoria.

Its a shame nz can't commingle with their pools.

Edited March 29 by the galah

[Brodie]

1 hour ago, Nowornever said:

Entain is coming up on a year of running the TAB on 1st June 2024. Nothing much has changed. In fact I would argue things have gotten worse for the punter. The website is still shit with breakdowns on the busiest days. We have lost two iconic types of bets in the place six and pick six. Tote pools are getting smaller.

On the 1st June 2025 thats when things will really get bad as I think quite a few of the physical TAB's and pub machines will be given their marching orders and betting restrictions will really start to kick in for anyone that is deemed a slight risk to their bottom line. 

Despite Entain bosses saying things will be rosy in the years to come I can not see it getting any better for the punter. 

Not sure that they can screw restricted punters anymore than they currently are?

The fact that they bring the Fixed Odds out earlier is a positive!

The power plays and Top 4  need to be given Option no.s so that you can bet into them away from your account.

tote turnovers are so poor now on many and not sure why people bother betting on the tote?

Edited March 29 by Brodie

[Nowornever]

8 minutes ago, Brodie said:

The fact that they bring the Fixed Odds out earlier is a positive

Not much of a positive if Entain will not let you bet on them. 

[Chief Stipe]

3 hours ago, the galah said:

Entains revenue in australia was down more % wise than TABCORP.I mentioned that in an earlier post.

Entain recently reported a global loss of 936.5 million pounds..So thats a loss of $1,966 million nz dollars.

TABCORP is aiming to have a 30% market share of the australian gambling market.Entain say they have a 17% share.

In august 2023 entain laid off 50 jobs. A report said cost cutting and numbers employed had occured across entains global business.It had employed about 800 people last year in australia but that number had reportedly been reduced by about 80 in 2023. 

the australian anti money laundering watchdog has an ongoing investigation which could cost their australian branch of entain up to $22 million.

I would have thought it just common sense that tabcorp,with almost double the market share and customers of australian wagering, when compared to entain,could generate the greater $ spend on products like nz harness. The turnovers i've quoted backs that up.

Obviously entain sweetened the deal enough for nz to think it was the better deal. Also,its the sports betting entain wanted most from nz.My point is was it a   shortsighted decsion to go with enatin and should there not have been more focus on the overall long term health of the industry.  

Your point should be that it as equally short-sighted to go with ENTAIN as it would have been  with TABCORP.

The NZ Government and Dean McKenzie missed their chance to fix it and keep it in NZ hands by taking soft options when hard decisions were required.

[Brodie]

1 hour ago, Nowornever said:

Not much of a positive if Entain will not let you bet on them. 

Restricted earlier 😂 

[Nowornever]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Your point should be that it as equally short-sighted to go with ENTAIN as it would have been  with TABCORP.

The NZ Government and Dean McKenzie missed their chance to fix it and keep it in NZ hands by taking soft options when hard decisions were required.

The TAB should never had got into the state it was in. Bloated salaries and top heavy management became the norm and when the NZ Post mob came in it was all downhill from there. 

 

 

[Brodie]

57 minutes ago, Nowornever said:

The TAB should never had got into the state it was in. Bloated salaries and top heavy management became the norm and when the NZ Post mob came in it was all downhill from there. 

 

 

I believe that they have not won many fans with some if their decisions!

They needed to retain the existing client base and attract new punters!

This is achieved by having existing clients bringing in new clients for them by keeping them happy, rather than isolating them!
To treat some of their clients unfairly and not not equally with others,  is one way of causing business to be lost!

Reality is that the chickens are coming home to roost unfortunately.

Their business model policy of relying on increasing yield  rather than increasing turnover  is flawed, but not everyone will agree with me!

 

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Your point should be that it as equally short-sighted to go with ENTAIN as it would have been  with TABCORP.

The NZ Government and Dean McKenzie missed their chance to fix it and keep it in NZ hands by taking soft options when hard decisions were required.

i agree with nowornever.

John allen went around the country selling the new website and how it was going to do this and that. I watched one of his speeches on the internet one time and thought to myself,is that fella stupid or what.I asked myself,am i missing something, as why are the people hes talking to not saying anything.He reminded me of forrest gumps quote,"stupid is as stupid does".

But hey he sold his dream to the industry groups and they put their faith in a man who seemed to be a dreamer.

The results of his new website.for example immediately easybet sales by half a million a week.

barry lichter once wrote a good article on how the tab got to where it was in 2020. E.g. When allen was there he drove down the tab's equity from 71 million to 23 million. Also by the time he finished the the tab had liabilities of 71 million and assets of 49 million,meaning it was technically insolvent.

So thats one of the main reasons the tab into the mess it was.

What is an eye opener is how much profit ENTAIN is predicting they will get out of the NZ TAB each year. which does make you wonder,like you suggest chief.

The point i've been making,if nz harness viability depends on future turnover,then surely it would have made the most sense to go with the group who clearly can generate the most turnover. i.e. tabcorp and not entain.

You have to wonder wether part of the decision makers who chose to endorse entain,were thinking,well we will only be here for another 5 years or so,so we have huaranteed things will be ok while we are here. What about what comes after that. what about the 10 year picture.

Edited March 29 by the galah

[Brodie]

Looking at the tote pools today at a Premier meeting at Addington!

not sure how much is being wagered on the Fixed Odds but the tote pools are patheticly low and will be a loss for the Club by the look of it?

The meeting needs to revert back to a night meeting to increase turnover and patronage on course!!

[mikeynz]

Interesting how apart from the main gallops meetings in oz Entain don't have doubles and ttrebles any more, some of the quaddies today at the low key meetings had Quaddie pools less than a thousand dollars, I'm not sure if commingling is happening anymore, maybe the only commingling might be Entains aussie sites with ours, 

Someone must know.

There isn't as much interest in a lot of the aussie stuff as we think, the big meetings yes but other than that, it can be rather sparce.

Edited March 30 by mikeynz

[the galah]

.

10 hours ago, mikeynz said:

Interesting how apart from the main gallops meetings in oz Entain don't have doubles and ttrebles any more, some of the quaddies today at the low key meetings had Quaddie pools less than a thousand dollars, I'm not sure if commingling is happening anymore, maybe the only commingling might be Entains aussie sites with ours, 

Someone must know.

There isn't as much interest in a lot of the aussie stuff as we think, the big meetings yes but other than that, it can be rather sparce.

Gammalite answered your question earlier.its 2nd from the top.

But heres more clarification for you if you want it.This is how i believe it works.

TABCORP own all tabs in australia,except western australia.

The KEY is to remember,due to legislative and other reasons,3 seperate betting pools are run by  australian tab's.I guess it involves consistency in %'s taken from the pools before returns to the punter.

But we only have a commingling agreement with one of those. 

The one we commingle with is the  supertab( or taborps victorian properites ). This pool includes the supertab victoria,western australia and act .We miss out on commingling with the rest of australia.

and seemingly,because nsw tabcorp has recently taken over the victorian retail tab licences,in fact we won't be getting much of the victorian betting either..

Midway through last year the NZ Commerce Commision granted permission for ENTAIN to join the agreement with the nztab (racing board) and supertab(victorian tab),part of which meant,those are the providers of the pools we bet into.

There is no agreement with the bulk of australia.

Supertab and tabcorp nsw pools are not commingled for nz,but are for some racing in hong kong.

Thats the whole point i've been making.

While NZ racing has gone with ENTAIN,its been a backward step as far as the commingling goes because of recent changes in australia.

Its obviously not good for nz harness racing the way it currently works,as it goes without saying that the bigger the nz pools,the more likely you are to get more punter participation.

But it isn't happening because we have partnered with the groups who provide the lowest amounts into our nz betting pools.

Edited March 30 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

22 minutes ago, the galah said:

Its obviously not good for nz harness racing the way it currently works,as it goes without saying that the bigger the nz pools,the more likely you are to get more punter participation.

Why?  I don't believe your assumption is correct.  A punter looks for value wherever it is and the TAB looks for revenue.  

Plus you are focussing on Tote Pools - most punters are looking for value on Fixed Odds.  We have no idea the book value held on a race.  It could be 4 times the Tote pool.

The smallest dividend in all the racing in Thoroughbred Racing yesterday was in the commingled World Pool where $1m+ was in the win pool.  

[the galah]

5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Why?  I don't believe your assumption is correct.  A punter looks for value wherever it is and the TAB looks for revenue.  

Plus you are focussing on Tote Pools - most punters are looking for value on Fixed Odds.  We have no idea the book value held on a race.  It could be 4 times the Tote pool.

The smallest dividend in all the racing in Thoroughbred Racing yesterday was in the commingled World Pool where $1m+ was in the win pool.  

My assumption just makes sense to me.

the more in a tote pool,the less larger amounts bet effect the prices.So obviously your able to make better judgment calls as to the" value" you refer to, as in the smaller tote pools ,your reducing your own value simply by investing.

Also i think its just logic,that the tote pools are a reflection of the coverage and punter interest which follows, in any given race. So logically,the more exposure,the more punter investment not just on the tote,but the final field as well..

As to dividends.

One thing which has stood out to me when observing the TABCORP NSW pools on nz harness. If you get a carry forward(jackpot) in the exotic bets from one race to the next,then there follows significant increased aussie punter interest in the jackpoting pools.

Had nz harness pools been commingled with tabcorp, it would be realistic to believe that if it was at a meeting getting good sky exposure due to being run at the right time slot,if say a trifecta,first 4 or even exactas jackpots for a couple of races then you could see interst in the tens of thousands,possibly over a hundred thousand .I say that because it just seems to take a jackpot of $300 on a trifecta or first four polol on a nz race,and you get an extra couple of thousand in the next race.Imagine if ot was jackpoting say $10,000,the interst would be very high.

from my observations of the NSW tabcorp pools,The key to pool size has little relevance to the quality of horses running.What is most important is the exposure a race gets on things like aussie sky racing.

Thats why i understand what the people from entain are on about when it comes to wanting more harness racing midweek at certain timeslots. Thats because they know they will get more exposure,and that punters investing follows.

Only one thing i did notice about the wednesday meetings at addington.In a couple of the high turnover races,the favorites got back and the drivers just followed them around and made no effort to improve. In those couple of races,only blair orange showed any initiatve when the pace slowed.If punter confidence in the product is to be maintained,you neeed drivers at least looking like they are trying.Which of course means the stipes need to be on the ball as well.

Edited March 31 by the galah

[Brodie]

There just has to be a reduction of money coming from Oz now!

The tote pools are absolutely pathetic on most races now to what they used to be!

The smaller the pool the less you are going to be able to retain the tote punters!

I also do not believe that there are many big punters on harness still, going by the shift in fixed odds prices!

This is a huge problem for the TAB as they need to retain and encourage big wagers!

The TAB is far too risk averse to stem the decline going by their current policy!

[Chief Stipe]

45 minutes ago, the galah said:

the more in a tote pool,the less larger amounts bet effect the prices.So obviously your able to make better judgment calls as to the" value" you refer to, as in the smaller tote pools ,your reducing your own value simply by investing.

Punters aren't looking at the pool sizes - they are looking for value in the prices available.  The TAB has long ago killed the Tote pools with their Fixed Odds product.