Wingman Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 George Ryder stakes at Rosehill today gave everyone a thrilling finish yet exposed the brutality of whip rules. The Australian rule is the jockey can apply the whip 5 times and then in the final 100m 'unfettered use'. Lane by my calculation on the winner Veight at least 12 consecutive hits. Schiller on narrow runner up, Lady Laguna, at least 10 consecutive hits. McDonald riding Militarize, a few then probably from inside the last 50m, 6 consecutive hits. It was as my title says an ugly watch. Both jurisdictions have got it wrong. NZ says every consecutive stride which just does not work and the Ryder race today shows graphically why open slather does not work. Regrettably the Ryder finish is perfect material for anti racing protagonists. Chief Stipe are you able to put this race up for all to see and judge? My thoughts are yes to the 5 before but only 5 inside the final 100m. Why do you need to a horse more than 5 times? inside the money line which is the last 100m. Relegating the horse is in my opinion wrong but should the jockey be faced with a warning if they hit the horse 6 instead of 5, suspended, automatically 1 week if 7 hits, 2 weeks if 8 or 9 and automatically 1 month if ten or more...THEN watch the problem go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 I still think, allow a limited number of strikes - say 5, or 7, for the whole race and leave it up to the rider to decide when best to use. Then suspend if he/ she can't count. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 7 minutes ago, Freda said: I still think, allow a limited number of strikes - say 5, or 7, for the whole race and leave it up to the rider to decide when best to use. Then suspend if he/ she can't count. When was the last time you rode a winner? ...in a race. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy connolly Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 Correct, she wouldn't have a clue and neither would the sycophants she's in bed with. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 9 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: When was the last time you rode a winner? ...in a race. That comment is beneath even you. I could make the same observation about you. Ryan Moore, Tom Marquand, Hollie Doyle et al ride superbly, and effectively, following just those directives, clearly you have no idea. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 10 hours ago, Freda said: I still think, allow a limited number of strikes - say 5, or 7, for the whole race and leave it up to the rider to decide when best to use. Then suspend if he/ she can't count. I agree that say adopting the BHA rules AND penalties would be a big step forward. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 Did look at all bad to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 26 minutes ago, curious said: I agree that say adopting the BHA rules AND penalties would be a big step forward. Can you put those up, C? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 Looked like every other race finish to a Group race with them all doing their best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 Following the 2022 report into the use of the whip, the rules regarding the use of the whip in British racing are being revised. The basic rules for use within a race are as follows: The whip can be used a maximum of six times in a Flat race or seven times in a Jump race. Any more than this will prompt the stewards to review the ride As well as the number of times the whip is used, The Whip Review Committee will look at the force with which it is used, whether it was used from above shoulder height, whether the horse has been given time to respond, the purpose for which the whip was used, whether the horse was in contention or clearly winning at the time it was used, and whether the whip has been used in the correct place (i.e. on the horse’s hindquarter rather than flanks) Any rider found to have contravened the rules or guidance will face a period of suspension, and any rider picking up third suspension in a six-month period will be referred to the Judicial Panel for penalty Should the whip be used four times or more above the permitted level, the horse and rider will be disqualified from the race View the full Rules and Guidance 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 GUIDANCE ON USE OF THE WHIP Toggle section as favourite In assessing a rider’s use of the whip for referral to the Whip Review Committee the Stewards should always remember that the whip must only be used for safety and encouragement within the guidance set out below. Whilst there is a requirement for all riders to carry a whip, there is no obligation on riders using their whip. Taking into account the below, on any occasion where the Stewards believe a rider may have committed an offence the Stewards shall refer the matter to the Whip Review Committee for consideration. a) A rider must use an approved whip. b) A rider may use the whip (including when waving it) in the forehand or backhand position. c) On each occasion the whip is used when the rider’s hand is off the reins, it will count towards the permitted number of strikes. d) A rider must not use their whip more than 6 times in a flat race or 7 times in a jump race. e) A rider must not use their whip excessively down the shoulder in the backhand position, with their hands on the reins, for example, as an alternative to using the whip in the freehand. f) A rider must only use the whip on the hindquarters of the horse in either the forehand or backhand position or down the shoulder with the whip in the backhand position. g) A rider must allow 3 strides between each use of the whip. h) A rider must only use the whip where their horse is responding. i) A rider must not use the whip with excessive force, for example by pulling the whip through from the opposite side of the body or rotation of the core to generate increased leverage. j) A rider must not use the whip with their whip arm above shoulder height, for example where there is clear space between whip hand and top of the helmet. k) A rider must not use the whip when out of contention, for example when there is no realistic prospect of finishing in the first five places. l) DELETED m) A rider must not use the whip if their mount is clearly winning (or clearly in any other placing). n) A rider must not use their whip when past the winning post. o) A rider must not weal a horse with their whip. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 (edited) AND the requirement to use it on the shoulder or hindquarters specifically excludes use on the flank. As well as the number of times the whip is used, the stewards will look at the force with which it is used, whether the horse has been given time to respond, the purpose for which the whip was used, whether the horse was in contention or clearly winning at the time it was used, and whether the whip has been used in the correct place (i.e. on the horse’s hindquarter rather than flanks) Edited March 23 by curious 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 Thanks, Curious. A look at the last race of the champion Equinox might be edifying to some here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 3 hours ago, Freda said: That comment is beneath even you. I could make the same observation about you. Ryan Moore, Tom Marquand, Hollie Doyle et al ride superbly, and effectively, following just those directives, clearly you have no idea. Really? I'm not so sure about that given some of the comments you post which have a clear bias. From the Stewards Report for Rosehill 23-03-24 - read and weep. GENERAL: Summary of whip use The Stewards noted the following riders exceeded the permitted strikes of the whip prior to the 100m under AR132(7)(a)(ii). Bearing in mind the totality of whip use, no action was taken. Race 2 T. Berry (Manzoice) App. Z. Lloyd (Floating) 7 strikes 6 strikes Race 3 J. McDonald (Thalassophile) T. Clark (Osmose) 8 strikes 6 strikes Race 4 T. Clark (The Novelist) 6 strikes Race 6 T. Clark (Ganbare) 6 strikes Race 7 T. Berry (Golden Mile) J. McDonald (Militarize) 7 strikes 6 strikes Race 9 T. Clark (Asfoora) 6 strikes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: Really? I'm not so sure about that given some of the comments you post which have a clear bias. From the Stewards Report for Rosehill 23-03-24 - read and weep. GENERAL: Summary of whip use The Stewards noted the following riders exceeded the permitted strikes of the whip prior to the 100m under AR132(7)(a)(ii). Bearing in mind the totality of whip use, no action was taken. Race 2 T. Berry (Manzoice) App. Z. Lloyd (Floating) 7 strikes 6 strikes Race 3 J. McDonald (Thalassophile) T. Clark (Osmose) 8 strikes 6 strikes Race 4 T. Clark (The Novelist) 6 strikes Race 6 T. Clark (Ganbare) 6 strikes Race 7 T. Berry (Golden Mile) J. McDonald (Militarize) 7 strikes 6 strikes Race 9 T. Clark (Asfoora) 6 strikes I didn't post that race as an issue, so no point whatsoever calling me out over that. The discussion is whip use generally. And isn't this a site for opinion? Every opinion shows a bias in one way or another. Without that there is no opinion. However, playing the man is not a constructive means with which to make a point. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 Freda is it possible to just ride a race-horse with the rider not being able to take both hands off the rein's ?. the rule in harness is you cannot have the reins in one hand and the whip in the other. A rein in each hand at all times. Therefore you are only tap, tap, tap tapping them with the whip still in a same hand as a rein. and the horses poor bum doesn't get hit hard at all consequently. Could the jockeys just tap tap tap on the shoulder? keeping the crop in a rein hand ? and that would stop any hurt to the animal (and Thomass posting more of those not so nice flank photo's) they could still 'slap' for noise on the shoulder while riding hands and heels ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted March 23 Author Share Posted March 23 Chris Johnson, Noel Harris, those type of top class riders would do exactly that. One of my best results was on a horse that despite looking like it was going to be beat kept finding for Noel who was tapping over the shoulder. The video that Chief Stipe kindly put up for us unfortunately doesn't show the head-on that I saw on trackside yesterday. It wasn't pretty but still, both Jockeys were compliant within the current rules. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 1 hour ago, Gammalite said: Freda is it possible to just ride a race-horse with the rider not being able to take both hands off the rein's ?. the rule in harness is you cannot have the reins in one hand and the whip in the other. A rein in each hand at all times. Therefore you are only tap, tap, tap tapping them with the whip still in a same hand as a rein. and the horses poor bum doesn't get hit hard at all consequently. Could the jockeys just tap tap tap on the shoulder? keeping the crop in a rein hand ? and that would stop any hurt to the animal (and Thomass posting more of those not so nice flank photo's) they could still 'slap' for noise on the shoulder while riding hands and heels ?? The great man Roy Higgins once told me ''I didn't like to hit them if they were in front'' he added, ''they were in front for a reason, they were giving their best''. Roy was in my humble opinion the best of all time, the benchmark for generations of saddle sitters to come........he loved the animal and it showed, Mick Dittman known as the enforcer for a reason, left welt marks that took hours to go down, the old days, bad old days when we used to leave our whips [leather thongs] in a bucket of water overnight to harden the leather, looking for an edge I suppose, just plain fucking stupid and cruel when I reflect.!.....Sadly. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 14 hours ago, billy connolly said: Correct, she wouldn't have a clue and neither would the sycophants she's in bed with. Hey Nomates, whats a sycophant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 3 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said: Hey Nomates, whats a sycophant? when one goes a bit psycho crazy ?? >> 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 36 minutes ago, Gammalite said: when one goes a bit psycho crazy ?? >> A psychopathic elephant. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 1 hour ago, Joe Bloggs said: Hey Nomates, whats a sycophant? Look in the dictionary under Billy Connolly , not the great comedian one . Might be in the sub section "Farkwits". 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 1 hour ago, Joe Bloggs said: The great man Roy Higgins once told me ''I didn't like to hit them if they were in front'' he added, ''they were in front for a reason, they were giving their best''. Roy was in my humble opinion the best of all time, the benchmark for generations of saddle sitters to come........he loved the animal and it showed, Mick Dittman known as the enforcer for a reason, left welt marks that took hours to go down, the old days, bad old days when we used to leave our whips [leather thongs] in a bucket of water overnight to harden the leather, looking for an edge I suppose, just plain fucking stupid and cruel when I reflect.!.....Sadly. But if the whip doesn't hurt a horse why harden it even more ???? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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