turnovers/sky coverage

[the galah]

so this is a topic i've harped on about a lot on here,but its a topic that HRNZ never seem to cast much light on. If they do,they keep it to themselves with next to no public comment..

so to illustrate just how important it is to new zealand harness racing ,we can look to western australia harness racing.

Currently Western australian harness racing administrators are preparing a report directly around this issue. They have stated just how important they consider the importance of timeslots,its impacts on turnovers and the significance of that as relates to sustainablity of stakes going forward.

heres some data on the difference in average turnover per race at their meetings that race on days covered by sky 1 and sky 2. Obviously sky 1 is the channel that most betting outlets and punters at home watch.

tracks. Pinjarra-they race every monday-the amounts are the overall average turnovers per race for each channel.SKY 1...$245,000/SKY 2...$164,000

Albany-fridays -SKY 1 $206,000,SKY 2...$153,000 saturdays-SKY 1  $201,000...SKY 2 $123,000 

Bunbury-saturdays ...SKY1 $198,000...SKY 2 $160,000

Northam-saturdays....$205,000   SKY 2 $135,000

Wagin-fridays- SKY 1 $224,000...SKY 2 $120,000

gloucester park-They always have sky 1 coverage-tuesdays $234,000   fridays $355,000    saturdays $232,000.

 

so western australia have lobbied sky racing for greater coverage of their races on a SKY 1,but have said the biggest hurdle is harness races take longer to run than the likes of greyhounds and the gallops,so tabcorp who provide the sky racing channels, focus more on their profits from the products shown and harness racing doesn't do as well as the other codes or overseas gallops meetings. 

so they are trying to work out how they can get more of their harness into timeslots that get sky 1 coverage.

It should go without saying that for nz harness racing this has to be one of the most crtitical issues,yet seemingly no one ever talks about it from HRNZ as being that.

Why is that???  

Like i said one time,had the racing industry leaders,not just HRNZ,and the labour government,had the foresight to recognise just how critically important this issue is and could have negotiated with TABCORP who run sky racing,and come up with a deal that was almost as good as entains offer,but had the cherry of a contract guaranteeing  greater levels of sky 1 racing coverage,then you would think nz harness racing would have been better off long term..

But they didn't so the question now is,what are they doing about this issue.

Maybe they need to have someone from western australia come over and start running the show here.

Edited September 24, 2024 by the galah

[Brodie]

27 minutes ago, the galah said:

so this is a topic i've harped on about a lot on here,but its a topic that HRNZ never seem to cast much light on. If they do,they keep it to themselves with next to no public comment..

so to illustrate just how important it is to new zealand harness racing ,we can look to western australia harness racing.

Currently Western australian harness racing administrators are preparing a report directly around this issue. They have stated just how important they consider the importance of timeslots,its impacts on turnovers and the significance of that as relates to sustainablity of stakes going forward.

heres some data on the difference in average turnover per race at their meetings that race on days covered by sky 1 and sky 2. Obviously sky 1 is the channel that most betting outlets and punters at home watch.

tracks. Pinjarra-they race every monday-the amounts are the overall average turnovers per race for each channel.SKY 1...$245,000/SKY 2...$164,000

Albany-fridays -SKY 1 $206,000,SKY 2...$153,000 saturdays-SKY 1  $201,000...SKY 2 $123,000 

Bunbury-saturdays ...SKY1 $198,000...SKY 2 $160,000

Northam-saturdays....$205,000   SKY 2 $135,000

Wagin-fridays- SKY 1 $224,000...SKY 2 $120,000

gloucester park-They always have sky 1 coverage-tuesdays $234,000   fridays $355,000    saturdays $232,000.

 

so western australia have lobbied sky racing for greater coverage of their races on a SKY 1,but have said the biggest hurdle is harness races take longer to run than the likes of greyhounds and the gallops,so tabcorp who provide the sky racing channels, focus more on their profits from the products shown and harness racing doesn't do as well as the other codes or overseas gallops meetings. 

so they are trying to work out how they can get more of their harness into timeslots that get sky 1 coverage.

It should go without saying that for nz harness racing this has to be one of the most crtitical issues,yet seemingly no one ever talks about it from HRNZ as being that.

Why is that???  

Like i said one time,had the racing industry leaders,not just HRNZ,and the labour government,had the foresight to recognise just how critically important this issue is and could have negotiated with TABCORP who run sky racing,and come up with a deal that was almost as good as entains offer,but had the cherry of a contract guaranteeing  greater levels of sky 1 racing coverage,then you would think nz harness racing would have been better off long term..

But they didn't so the question now is,what are they doing about this issue.

Maybe they need to have someone from western australia come over and start running the show here.

Entain may gave coughed up money to buy the controlling rights to the NZ TAB, however they have yet to show that they are successful at what they do!

There are things that they have brought in that has reduced profitability without doubt!

Yes they are spending massive amounts on advertising on TV, so will be interesting to see how many new accounts are being opened!

they need to put the place odds back up on Trackside, but they wont cos they have got a very amateur site from Sport and Racing, Trusted for 20plus years apparently??

[Nowornever]

Yes a lot of the turnover related figures are not printed like they once were. Mainly because it does not make good reading. You can not pick holes in woeful decision making if you can not see the data.

They used to publish the average dividend prices year upon year but that seems to have disappeared as well. Why? I am betting that also does not make good reading.

[Nowornever]

4 hours ago, Brodie said:

Entain may gave coughed up money to buy the controlling rights to the NZ TAB, however they have yet to show that they are successful at what they do!

There are things that they have brought in that has reduced profitability without doubt!

Yes they are spending massive amounts on advertising on TV, so will be interesting to see how many new accounts are being opened!

they need to put the place odds back up on Trackside, but they wont cos they have got a very amateur site from Sport and Racing, Trusted for 20plus years apparently??

No good putting place odds up if you can not bet on them?

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Nowornever said:

Yes a lot of the turnover related figures are not printed like they once were. Mainly because it does not make good reading. You can not pick holes in woeful decision making if you can not see the data.

They used to publish the average dividend prices year upon year but that seems to have disappeared as well. Why? I am betting that also does not make good reading.

Thats the thing isn't it,they don't seem to rate the intelligence of those they are trying to deceive.

on 9 september HRNZ announced the appointment of matthew peden as the new head of racing and wagering.

Peden said...we need to increase race starts per horse per year,we need to increase market share and turnover and we need to do something about foal numbers.

Well,if you read this mr peden,what i think you need to do is tell us your going to formulate some strategy for harness racing to be conducted in timeslots that maximise sky 1 coverage.He needs to start putting data together to prove how important it is and then he needs to come up with a sellable plan. 

he needs to break down the data and show exactly how reliant we are on turnover generated out of australia.In other words how much of each nz tab pool is made up of aussie money and how much tabcorp and betfair and other australian bookies money is contributing % wise to nz harness turnover.

As i've shown above,the highest average turnover on sky 1 was on friday night at gloucester park followed by a Monday afternoon at pinjarra.Yes a monday.

the figures i gave above for western australia harness racing, show that every track that had sky racing channel 1 coverage had between a 25% to 85% higher turnover compared to the comparable turnover they got when racing on sky 2 on the same day.

Mathew peden has only just started in the job,so we will give him a chance.

But,he can talk about numbers bred,average start per horse until the cows come home. They are important,but none have the potential impact as sky racing coverage. I've pointed out before,at manawatu one night a few months ago,they had probably one of the weakest 7 horse non win races on a tuesday they have had up there,and its turnover was much higher than you see in 95% of the races at our premier tracks.Thats because it fitted into an ideal timeslot on sky 1.

Edited September 24, 2024 by the galah

[Nowornever]

This newly created position is a bit of a con is it not. 

Every man and his dog knows bigger even fields are the key to getting punters to open their wallets and produce higher turnover (Just look at the grass tracks) so unless this Peden guy can find some new horses especially in the North then he is pushing shit up hill.

Even if he pulls these new horses out of his arse the hierarchy have disillusioned a lot of the smaller owners and trainers who have in turn given the game away and no amount of begging will get them back so who is going to own and train these new horses we do not have.

 

[Brodie]

12 hours ago, Nowornever said:

No good putting place odds up if you can not bet on them?

Brodie has a “never say die” attitude!
Where there is a will, there is a way!

[Brodie]

11 hours ago, Nowornever said:

This newly created position is a bit of a con is it not. 

Every man and his dog knows bigger even fields are the key to getting punters to open their wallets and produce higher turnover (Just look at the grass tracks) so unless this Peden guy can find some new horses especially in the North then he is pushing shit up hill.

Even if he pulls these new horses out of his arse the hierarchy have disillusioned a lot of the smaller owners and trainers who have in turn given the game away and no amount of begging will get them back so who is going to own and train these new horses we do not have.

 

Think it is a sign of the times now, that we have lost a generation of potential punters coming through!

How many know of new punters of our kids age that are now betting on harness racing?

Personally do not know any really and this is why the industry is going to be up the creek in years to come.

New owners apart from syndicates are also few and far between due to costs to race a horse and returns.

Personally do not like large fields to bet into like Addington are currently having, where so many of the fields are just too even and therefore it is gambling rather than investing!

Still opportunity to make $ but just not as many as there used to be as the Bookies put out too many “unders” 

 

[Gammalite]

7 hours ago, Brodie said:

Think it is a sign of the times now, that we have lost a generation of potential punters coming through!

How many know of new punters of our kids age that are now betting on harness racing?

Personally do not know any really and this is why the industry is going to be up the creek in years to come.

New owners apart from syndicates are also few and far between due to costs to race a horse and returns.

Personally do not like large fields to bet into like Addington are currently having, where so many of the fields are just too even and therefore it is gambling rather than investing!

Still opportunity to make $ but just not as many as there used to be as the Bookies put out too many “unders” 

 

A new first Brodster. 😂 Have to say I agree with all six of your points here. And some are quite important for/about the harness racing industry future too. a bit of worrying times for sure.  

[the galah]

On 24/09/2024 at 2:12 PM, the galah said:

so this is a topic i've harped on about a lot on here,but its a topic that HRNZ never seem to cast much light on. If they do,they keep it to themselves with next to no public comment..

so to illustrate just how important it is to new zealand harness racing ,we can look to western australia harness racing.

Currently Western australian harness racing administrators are preparing a report directly around this issue. They have stated just how important they consider the importance of timeslots,its impacts on turnovers and the significance of that as relates to sustainablity of stakes going forward.

heres some data on the difference in average turnover per race at their meetings that race on days covered by sky 1 and sky 2. Obviously sky 1 is the channel that most betting outlets and punters at home watch.

tracks. Pinjarra-they race every monday-the amounts are the overall average turnovers per race for each channel.SKY 1...$245,000/SKY 2...$164,000

Albany-fridays -SKY 1 $206,000,SKY 2...$153,000 saturdays-SKY 1  $201,000...SKY 2 $123,000 

Bunbury-saturdays ...SKY1 $198,000...SKY 2 $160,000

Northam-saturdays....$205,000   SKY 2 $135,000

Wagin-fridays- SKY 1 $224,000...SKY 2 $120,000

gloucester park-They always have sky 1 coverage-tuesdays $234,000   fridays $355,000    saturdays $232,000.

 

so western australia have lobbied sky racing for greater coverage of their races on a SKY 1,but have said the biggest hurdle is harness races take longer to run than the likes of greyhounds and the gallops,so tabcorp who provide the sky racing channels, focus more on their profits from the products shown and harness racing doesn't do as well as the other codes or overseas gallops meetings. 

so they are trying to work out how they can get more of their harness into timeslots that get sky 1 coverage.

It should go without saying that for nz harness racing this has to be one of the most crtitical issues,yet seemingly no one ever talks about it from HRNZ as being that.

Why is that???  

Like i said one time,had the racing industry leaders,not just HRNZ,and the labour government,had the foresight to recognise just how critically important this issue is and could have negotiated with TABCORP who run sky racing,and come up with a deal that was almost as good as entains offer,but had the cherry of a contract guaranteeing  greater levels of sky 1 racing coverage,then you would think nz harness racing would have been better off long term..

But they didn't so the question now is,what are they doing about this issue.

Maybe they need to have someone from western australia come over and start running the show here.

 

Anyone who has any doubts about what i say about timeslots and pre race coverage being the main factor in turnover,just has to look at saturdays ellerslie meeting for proof.

Its such an obvious thing.

On saturday, in australia ,they had really good sky channel one, pre race lead in coverage for races 5-10.

So how did that impact turnover. Well races 1-4 the win pools on the commingled nz tab,were between 25,000-41,000 and race 10 was $56,000.

So what difference did the pre race sky coverage make,well the win pools on races 5-9 were between $660,000 and near 1.1 million.

Now if the group ones were the reason for the jump by between $600,000 to million more per race,then why was race 4's group one turnoover only $41,000. its obvious the answer is, because that group 1 didn't get the same sky coverage in australia.

as i always say about tabcorp ,their win pools reflected the nz tab turnovers. Tabcorps win pools for races 1-4 were between $6,000-12,000 and race 10 was $25,000. Races 5-9 were between $610,000 and 1 million..

 

Edited 9 hours ago by the galah

[mikeynz]

3 hours ago, the galah said:

 

Anyone who has any doubts about what i say about timeslots and pre race coverage being the main factor in turnover,just has to look at saturdays ellerslie meeting for proof.

Its such an obvious thing.

On saturday, in australia ,they had really good sky channel one, pre race lead in coverage for races 5-10.

So how did that impact turnover. Well races 1-4 the win pools on the commingled nz tab,were between 25,000-41,000 and race 10 was $56,000.

So what difference did the pre race sky coverage make,well the win pools on races 5-9 were between $660,000 and near 1.1 million.

Now if the group ones were the reason for the jump by between $600,000 to million more per race,then why was race 4's group one turnoover only $41,000. its obvious the answer is, because that group 1 didn't get the same sky coverage in australia.

as i always say about tabcorp ,their win pools reflected the nz tab turnovers. Tabcorps win pools for races 1-4 were between $6,000-12,000 and race 10 was $25,000. Races 5-9 were between $610,000 and 1 million..

 

You are aware there was a world pool operating on some races?

[curious]

3 hours ago, the galah said:

 

Anyone who has any doubts about what i say about timeslots and pre race coverage being the main factor in turnover,just has to look at saturdays ellerslie meeting for proof.

Its such an obvious thing.

On saturday, in australia ,they had really good sky channel one, pre race lead in coverage for races 5-10.

So how did that impact turnover. Well races 1-4 the win pools on the commingled nz tab,were between 25,000-41,000 and race 10 was $56,000.

So what difference did the pre race sky coverage make,well the win pools on races 5-9 were between $660,000 and near 1.1 million.

Nothing to do with the coverage per se.

World Pool races

World Pool will be in operation on five of the 10 races on Barfoot & Thompson Champions Day.

2:47pm: Race 5: Group 1 HKJC World Pool New Zealand Thoroughbred Breeders’ Stakes
3:22pm: Race 6: Group 1 Bonecrusher New Zealand Stakes
3:56pm: Race 7: Group 2 Barfoot & Thompson Auckland Cup
4:32pm: Race 8: Listed The NZB Kiwi
5:07pm: Race 9: Group 1 Trackside NZ Derby

[the galah]

1 hour ago, curious said:

Nothing to do with the coverage per se.

World Pool races

World Pool will be in operation on five of the 10 races on Barfoot & Thompson Champions Day.

2:47pm: Race 5: Group 1 HKJC World Pool New Zealand Thoroughbred Breeders’ Stakes
3:22pm: Race 6: Group 1 Bonecrusher New Zealand Stakes
3:56pm: Race 7: Group 2 Barfoot & Thompson Auckland Cup
4:32pm: Race 8: Listed The NZB Kiwi
5:07pm: Race 9: Group 1 Trackside NZ Derby

Well your above comment is a total contradiction.

Your saying the pools were big because the pools coverage was wordwide,but the tv coverage being world wide made no difference to the pools "per se".

I will stand on my head when i read that next time to see if that makes more sense.

The whole world pool thing is just an extension of the very argument i'm putting forward.

I'm arguing the principle of Greater coverage leads to greater turnovers.

That principle applies to a dog race at dubbo on a monday afternoon,a harness race at manawatu on a tuesday evening or a gallops race at ellerslie on a saturday afternoon.

Maximise the timeslots that you get greatest pre race lead in coverage on any given day/night nz harness are held and you maximise the turnovers.I've previously suggested targeting the harness jackpots with the carry forward money into those timeslots and you get big pools.The proofs always there if you follow the data.

I have given the data above as to why western australia recognise why its so important.

 

Edited 4 hours ago by the galah

[Brodie]

Why are Kiwi’s stopped from wagering on NZ racing from their accounts, when they are holidaying overseas?

 

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Brodie said:

Why are Kiwi’s stopped from wagering on NZ racing from their accounts, when they are holidaying overseas?

 

so how does that work?

if say your in australia on holiday,can you put a bet on your nz tab account?

If the proposed geo blocking the nz government is considering eventuates,,so they stop nz punters betting on australiain betting agencies,does that mean new zealanders in nz can't bet can't bet on say tabcorp.

For example i have a tabcorp account mainly because their website is so much more user firiendly,just a lot better than the nz tab one. just easier to look at.It also has all the replays available of the nz harness races  about the same time each race is confirmed,long before they are on the hrnz website and you can view videos of each starters previous nz harness starts on the tabcorp website to help you make selections if you wish.

having said that,tabcorp would the worst company to deal with, i've ever experienced in my lifetime.

Easy enough to set up an account,but when i first made a little bit of money and tried to sort out how to withdraw it it took about 3 months,hundreds of phone calls,hundreds of emails to get them to help. I even complained to an australain federal agency and they were absolutely no help whatsover, as they said it was a tabcorp issue,not covered by them.

They never once replied to emails,phone calls,eventually after months of trying ,i wrote them a letter  comnplaining and they contacted me. Tabcorp truly the pits as far as customer service went.

I only persevered at the time  because i wanted my money out.

I still have  have a tabcorp account as well as a nz tab one and bet solely on nz harness,not much on the tabcorp one due to the pool size,but just to spread some bets due to the nz pools being too small sometimes,thus efffecting prices.Are the nz government propsoing to stop that Would that mean if i was in ausssie the only betting i could do on nz harness would be through the tabcorp account?

brodie,if you can't bet on nz racing as you suggest,do you find a way around that.

Edited 44 minutes ago by the galah