All the Best Awapuni!

[Special Agent]

I don't know what you mean about closed tracks.

The meeting moved from Woodville to Hawera to Waverley.  The latter two were slated to close in the Messara report.  Waverley had their own meeting to worry about but, had to accommodate the industry.

[Special Agent]

9 minutes ago, curious said:

Why are they suddenly doing all this renovation of the AWTs since they got the Massey report 5 weeks ago and why has that not been released to stake holders?

I didn't say they were doing the scheduled major maintenance, just that it is due.  I'd say they are waiting for funds from land grabs before being able to commence.  Now that Trentham has provided a refurbished bar and birdcage fencing at Awapuni, it's time to find the next donor.

[Chief Stipe]

7 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

I don't know what you mean about closed tracks.

The meeting moved from Woodville to Hawera to Waverley.  The latter two were slated to close in the Messara report.  Waverley had their own meeting to worry about but, had to accommodate the industry.

What I'm saying is what meetings at Waverley occurred because NZTR had closed a track?  Waverley had to accommodate Hawera and Woodville because although they were open tracks they weren't up to standard.

The fact is there are 70 less race meetings since 2006 to run on Turf tracks throughout New Zealand.  Which tracks get those remaining?

[Freda]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

I agree with the majority of your post - it is well thought out and reasoned.  It's just this quote I don't agree with.

Are tracks really "being hammered"?

In 2006-07 Season:

 

In the 2023-24 Seaon:

There were 292 meetings - 7 less than 2006-07 BUT

404 less races which is the equivalent of 40 less race meetings.

Are tracks really getting "getting hammered"?

So, of the 51 racetracks used in 2006,  how many are still in use now?

Again, I can only refer to local conditions not NZ wide, but in Canterbury/Marlborough alone,  there are races formerly held at Riccarton, Motukarara, Rangiora,  Ashburton, Timaru, Geraldine, Waimate and Blenheim; now nearly all being held at Riccarton and Ashburton - with a nod to Timaru.

Ashburton has to hold trials too, whereas earlier, Rangiora, Motukarara and Geraldine chipped in and did their bit.

So I think it is fair to say yes, tracks are getting hammered.

[Freda]

45 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I thought wet sand was more compact than dry sand?  Don't you train horses on the beach @curious?

 

For a start that puts to bed the myths flying around that there was NO water applied.  So 23mm of water leading up to the raceday wasn't enough?  When evaporation rates were low?  Has Awapuni got a pond or is there a natural spring near by?  The water rates bill might become expensive.

 

That was going to be my next query.    Ellerslie has a lake in the middle.      How is Awapuni going to maintain/manage the amount of water seemingly needed for this sandpit?

[curious]

9 minutes ago, Freda said:

That was going to be my next query.    Ellerslie has a lake in the middle.      How is Awapuni going to maintain/manage the amount of water seemingly needed for this sandpit?

They have to buy it. The question is, what with?

Or, do they have an irrigation bore?

Edited 18 hours ago by curious

[Huey]

49 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

What I'm saying is what meetings at Waverley occurred because NZTR had closed a track?  Waverley had to accommodate Hawera and Woodville because although they were open tracks they weren't up to standard.

 

That's the point it is their job to identify these problems/issues well ahead of the prospect of abandonment and moving meetings is even considered. They haven't and they won't. That's been born out by their persistence and ignorance around closing venues. 

The biggest issue with NZTR is they have absolutely no idea how the industry works , clueless and I mean clueless about how it functions. It would function better and has done so in the past without them.

[Special Agent]

50 minutes ago, curious said:

They have to buy it. The question is, what with?

I told you with what.  Now Trentham is a shadow of it's former self the next lot of land grabs begin to maintain Awapuni.

Trainers told them they would not be able to afford the upkeep of the synthetic.  Now there is another costly burden until the course proper is up and running again.

Maybe the birdcage can be opened for picnics.

[Special Agent]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

What I'm saying is what meetings at Waverley occurred because NZTR had closed a track?  Waverley had to accommodate Hawera and Woodville because although they were open tracks they weren't up to standard.

The fact is there are 70 less race meetings since 2006 to run on Turf tracks throughout New Zealand.  Which tracks get those remaining?

Don't you think Awapuni and Hastings out of commission impacted on the remaining CD tracks?  Maybe not permanently closed yet but, neither were operational at the time.  Trentham was also under the earthquake prone cloud.  Otaki was out for repair.  Wanganui had had the running rail issue, in addition to taking on races from other venues.

[Chief Stipe]

24 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

Don't you think Awapuni and Hastings out of commission impacted on the remaining CD tracks? 

Of course it did.  But how many race meetings did it actually affect?  There have been fewer race meetings to host so not as many as some people assume.

The majority of the HB Guineas meeting went North to the Waikato.

Trentham got off lightly with only two or three extra meetings.  Hardly a hammering.

Waverley has taken up the slack.  New Plymouth did SFA.

But Waverley is like Ashburton why didn't they push back?  Did both Clubs do a deal that secures track renovatipn funding and a license to race in the future?

[Freda]

18 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

But Waverley is like Ashburton why didn't they push back?  Did both Clubs do a deal that secures track renovatipn funding and a license to race in the future?

Ashburton did push back.    Refused to hold the latest set of grass trials because the track wasn't up to it.

[Doomed]

2 hours ago, Huey said:

That's the point it is their job to identify these problems/issues well ahead of the prospect of abandonment and moving meetings is even considered. They haven't and they won't. That's been born out by their persistence and ignorance around closing venues. 

The biggest issue with NZTR is they have absolutely no idea how the industry works , clueless and I mean clueless about how it functions. It would function better and has done so in the past without them.

Probably worth remembering that NZTR have only had to run things for the last 20 years or so. Previously they had very little to do with closing down tracks, funding stakes, deciding on dates, building grandstands, renovating tracks. etc.

So this is all relatively new to them and they aren't really up to it. Ironically at a time when most clubs have lost all of their enthusiasm and can't put up much of a fight. They would have struggled to push through many of these "innovations" 30 years ago.

[Extra Dollars]

3 hours ago, Freda said:

That was going to be my next query.    Ellerslie has a lake in the middle.      How is Awapuni going to maintain/manage the amount of water seemingly needed for this sandpit?

Sewage ponds next door!!!

[Wingman]

Now, if we put the justifiable emotional outbursts to one side we get to the crux of the matter

5 minutes ago, Doomed said:

Probably worth remembering that NZTR have only had to run things for the last 20 years or so. Previously they had very little to do with closing down tracks, funding stakes, deciding on dates, building grandstands, renovating tracks. etc.

So this is all relatively new to them and they aren't really up to it

The only part of your statement Doomed I would change is to put the words re NZTR "They aren't really up to it"  in BOLD

The Industry has been run with a corporate model for the last 20 years but with no shareholder accountability. We are at a crossroads, the people who are in charge but are not in charge, as they really do not know what to do, have been there far too long. The only way this can change for the better, is for the Racing Minister to wield and use the metaphorical axe

 

[Special Agent]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Of course it did.  But how many race meetings did it actually affect?  There have been fewer race meetings to host so not as many as some people assume.

The majority of the HB Guineas meeting went North to the Waikato.

Trentham got off lightly with only two or three extra meetings.  Hardly a hammering.

Waverley has taken up the slack.  New Plymouth did SFA.

But Waverley is like Ashburton why didn't they push back?  Did both Clubs do a deal that secures track renovatipn funding and a license to race in the future?

I think you'll find Woodville decided they weren't able to provide a decent surface when the pin was pulled there.

Waverley did the decent thing for the industry but, their track will need time to recover.

Also remember Tauherenikau was shaky for a while too.

CD is not in good shape.  Matt Ballesty's comments were heavy handed and snacked if a new guy going to throw his weight around.  Then when Curious quoted Bruce Sharrock about any pot of gold they can find, what are we to think?

[Murray Fish]

5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

When was it last a Premier Track?  That is a serious question.

when I was full time with camera and went there for 100+ meetings, 80's into the 90's,  'Our" best WFA races were being fought out on 'safe' racing services...   <---  dear I say, pre Over watering on said tracks! that has continued to this day!

[Murray Fish]

3 hours ago, Freda said:

So, of the 51 racetracks used in 2006, 

proud to be able to say that I had been to a meeting on everyone of them!

 

[Murray Fish]

4 hours ago, curious said:

Given that and the feedback from riders and trainers, they went ahead and put horses and riders at risk anyway. Tragic.

Pardon! that old elephant in the room problem! the jockeys  have been legged  up! to go around! to Prove that the tracks was not safe! sigh...   When the next big crash on the track happens with this sort of back story about now it seems so many tracks! 

Jockeys should not be used as TrackTestDummys!!!  

Talking about finding a needed Voice!  What has the Jockeys Assoc been saying????

[Freda]

14 hours ago, curious said:

Why are they suddenly doing all this renovation of the AWTs since they got the Massey report 5 weeks ago and why has that not been released to stake holders?

Can't answer re. the Massey report, but the work done on the Riccarton AWT was the normal, 4 monthly visit from the Australian guys, which as I understand,  was part of the original contract with Martin Collins. 

[curious]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

Can't answer re. the Massey report, but the work done on the Riccarton AWT was the normal, 4 monthly visit from the Australian guys, which as I understand,  was part of the original contract with Martin Collins. 

Was more referring to SA's remark about the Awapuni one being "flipped" but I'm pretty sure that Riccarton last had that contracted work done in November so it is a long 4 months. NZTR told me on 20/3 that the report would be released in days/weeks, so that's certainly been days and now some weeks with AWT racing about to get under way. You'd think they would want stakeholders to have that information by now since it is evidently available.

[Freda]

19 minutes ago, curious said:

Was more referring to SA's remark about the Awapuni one being "flipped" but I'm pretty sure that Riccarton last had that contracted work done in November so it is a long 4 months. NZTR told me on 20/3 that the report would be released in days/weeks, so that's certainly been days and now some weeks with AWT racing about to get under way. You'd think they would want stakeholders to have that information by now since it is evidently available.

They're out of their depth.

[Chief Stipe]

17 hours ago, curious said:

Given that and the feedback from riders and trainers, they went ahead and put horses and riders at risk anyway. Tragic.

Then why did the new Track expert Kate Hercock elect to ride on the track?  Surely if she was so sure beforehand she and her fellow senior jockeys could have pulled the pin?  She didn't seem to worried when she hunted her charge up around the very piece of the track that she apparently knew was dangerous!!!

Likewise with all the nameless Trainers who "knew beforehand" but still elected to race their horses?

"No lets wait until after the abandonment and say we told you so then blame the Track Manager, Club Management and NZTR."

If the RIB are in charge then why did they let the races go ahead if all these Jockeys and Trainers expressed their concerns?

12 hours ago, Murray Fish said:

Pardon! that old elephant in the room problem! the jockeys  have been legged  up! to go around! to Prove that the tracks was not safe! sigh...   When the next big crash on the track happens with this sort of back story about now it seems so many tracks! 

Jockeys should not be used as TrackTestDummys!!!  

Talking about finding a needed Voice!  What has the Jockeys Assoc been saying????

Apparently the Jockeys whisper beforehand and then sing loudly afterwards.

But all this scuttlebutt aside HOW DO YOU TEST A TRACK BEFORE A MEETING?  Someone has to vest and helmet up to test it don't they?  

[curious]

5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

But all this scuttlebutt aside HOW DO YOU TEST A TRACK BEFORE A MEETING?  Someone has to vest and helmet up to test it don't they?  

Exactly. Someone/s. In a situation where they can ease if it feels insecure.

I don't see any mention of reports from riders who rode the gallops 48 hours out or on race morning?

Edited 1 hour ago by curious

[Special Agent]

Chief, you have not been in any meetings of participants with officials.  They do not listen!!  There have been many "I told you so" moments that are not made public.

Yes, trainers and jockeys were suspicious of the track.  Racing in CD is hurting.  It's a case of going to the races with fingers crossed.

Maybe the jumping season can bring some joy, a part of the scene that's had a reprieve.  Go Levin, 55 jumpers going around there today. It's the 3rd set of "trials" at that surplus venue this month.

[Chief Stipe]

10 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

Chief, you have not been in any meetings of participants with officials.  They do not listen!!  There have been many "I told you so" moments that are not made public.

Yes, trainers and jockeys were suspicious of the track.  Racing in CD is hurting.  It's a case of going to the races with fingers crossed.

Then why did Trainers and Jockeys start if they knew it was dangerous?  Wouldn't a Senior Jockey publically pulling the pin BEFORE the meeting have more credibility than saying after the fact "I told you so!"

The more important point is what protocols and processes should be in place to prove a track IS SAFE?