southern surge

[Westview]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

So less than the Slot buyers.  Which Slot race are you referring to?

That was this year's race, by betcha

[Doomed]

54 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

How do you know that they aren't influencing decisions by HRNZ?

Well if they are it isn't obvious, and it isn't making much sense. Very little of the additional spend appears intended to maximise turnovers.

[Chief Stipe]

39 minutes ago, Doomed said:

Well if they are it isn't obvious, and it isn't making much sense. Very little of the additional spend appears intended to maximise turnovers.

HRNZ decides where the money they get from ENTAIN is spent.  HRNZ is making the same mistake as NZTR that is increasing stakes will increase participation.

HRNZ though doesn't have the same demands to improve infrastructure that NZTR has.  

HRNZ may be better to build reserves and extend the time they have a decent income.

[curious]

1 hour ago, Doomed said:

Some good contributions above. There are 3 or 4 harness contributors who always make well thought through intelligent posts.

The thing that I can never understand, in both Harness racing and the gallops, is that Entain seem happy enough to just hand over the money and say to the codes "do what you like with it", but they never seem to then follow up by saying :Hey, hold on, we did think you would use the money to help boost turnovers."

Neither code sees optimising turnovers as a priority with the cash windfall they have been given. When the money train runs dry there seems to be absolutely no plan B.

I agree. I think Entain are doing both. That is handing the codes money and suggesting ways they could use that to enhance wagering revenue. Entain are a highly successful international betting and gaming company that have or are buying a little wagering business here in NZ. That doesn't need NZ racing for it to be successful for them, and I don't see much sign of the codes adding anything to it that Entain might want or need to keep longer term.

[Nowornever]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

How do you know that they aren't influencing decisions by HRNZ?

Well you do have an ex Entain employee planted right up there as head of Racing and Wagering so maybe they are.

[Chief Stipe]

13 minutes ago, Nowornever said:

Well you do have an ex Entain employee planted right up there as head of Racing and Wagering so maybe they are.

What if they are?  Surely it is HRNZ who decide the quantum of what is spent per race?  I can imagine ENTAIN might suggest this time and day is best but whether it's $10k or $20k in stakes is up to HRNZ.  Is there any restriction on HRNZ using a proportion of what they are allocated by TABNZ (yes ENTAIN doesn't do the code split) as a reserve fund?

[Brodie]

12 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

What if they are?  Surely it is HRNZ who decide the quantum of what is spent per race?  I can imagine ENTAIN might suggest this time and day is best but whether it's $10k or $20k in stakes is up to HRNZ.  Is there any restriction on HRNZ using a proportion of what they are allocated by TABNZ (yes ENTAIN doesn't do the code split) as a reserve fund?

You would think that they would be using the money a helluva lot more wisely than they actually are?

Reality is that they will have no problem moving many of them on when the time is up, they have a history of it.

If they were indeed wanting to improve turnover, they are going about it a very very odd way!

[Nowornever]

There must be a close relationship between Entain and HRNZ especially regarding the calendar, for aligning with TV programming etc. I would think Entain would be advising best times dates for certain meetings. As to the stakes HRNZ should be administering that side of it but it looks like slot races and pouring money into a few bigger races is taking priority over anything else.

[Brodie]

2 hours ago, Nowornever said:

There must be a close relationship between Entain and HRNZ especially regarding the calendar, for aligning with TV programming etc. I would think Entain would be advising best times dates for certain meetings. As to the stakes HRNZ should be administering that side of it but it looks like slot races and pouring money into a few bigger races is taking priority over anything else.

The TAB and Entain  are the ones that are feeding the money to HRNZ to pay for the stakes.

HRNZ will be distributing the funding into the stakes for the races that they are programming .

No offence intended, but personally believe that think they are Santa Claus at the moment  but Santa is going to run out of toys to give away in 2 years time!

Unless someone knows more than what they are showing, the industry is going to be in strife.

[mikeynz]

15 2yos racing for a hundred grand, that will be adjusted with small fields, at Ashburton on Sunday, Gamma can say that there will be plenty of winners going home with cheque's but small fields produce small turnovers, once again the obsession of pumping up stakes for poor fields seems weird, it's a bit like a business paying it's apprentices more than the senior workers, yes you need 2yo racing and yes you need some features too but it seems a more than regular event now.

Brodie anyone here can only voice their opinion about matters, question is would anyone or does anyone in places that can make a difference ever notice them?

The only satisfaction one can get sometimes is when or if  the shit hits the fan one can only say one was right.

So many decisions made by people on the inside but sometimes not seeing what those on the outside can see, it's happening in many things from sport to politics, things change all the time, I'm just not sure if things are changing for the better.

[Gammalite]

46 minutes ago, mikeynz said:

15 2yos racing for a hundred grand, that will be adjusted with small fields, at Ashburton on Sunday, Gamma can say that there will be plenty of winners going home with cheque's but small fields produce small turnovers, once again the obsession of pumping up stakes for poor fields seems weird, it's a bit like a business paying it's apprentices more than the senior workers, yes you need 2yo racing and yes you need some features too but it seems a more than regular event now.

The time-honoured Sapling Stakes used to be a highlight of the year. I'm terribly disappointed only 8 colts going around on Sunday . Where are the Dunn's and Cullen's and Todd's 2 yearolds???  Marketplace Won this race last year for Regan Todd. You would think the leading stables would be busting at the seams with 2 yearolds and trying at least 10 ?  2year olds each to find at least one capable of going in these feature races ? 

It's what they should be doing anyway. like Dalgetys and Allstars used to. 

The 2 Leading stables here of Dixon and Pete McMullen in Brisbane have 2 of our features 2 year old races Saturday night as well . They worked VERY HARD and qualified 10 horses between them. They're starting to get better than NZ trainers which wouldn't of been the case just 10 years ago. The races are worth the same money as Ashburton for the Colts and Fillies in separate races as well. $60k for the colts being the same as the 'Once-great' Sapling Stakes. 

we have 2 full fields of 10 at Brisbane Saturday night for these 2 year old races  (that had to do a qualifying run over a week ago to get in as well) so 20 horses get a start in the 2 nice Group 3 Breeders races.

You need Group racing racing Mikey.  15 runners in your 2 races on Sunday is indeed Disappointing. Maybe they could of combined the 2 fields and had one 12 horse race? if you're worried about the field sizes of 8 and 7 ?  . BUT 3 horses MISS OUT altogeather then ? that's Not good either.  at least they're trying to put races on for you. Like they are with the Southern Surge and that.  

[Doomed]

I don't recall the Sapling stakes being restricted to the males in the past. That seems to be a relatively recent thing. It does mean small fields for both races.

[the galah]

Hiow many fillies would have lined up in the sapling stakes if they had to run against the colts.

probably none as why would they.thats why they have a separate race for fillies.

look at the welcomes takes the week before.

Trainers aren't stupid. They don't like seeing their horses get their heads kicked in with a good thrashing on the track.did you see the gaps between the first 3 and the rest in that race.the 4th horse finished a well beaten 16 lengths with the other starters coming in at longer intervals.

As i predicted right from the start. The 2 year old bonus scheme for winners would get zero more starters .

Those who thought it would really just aren't very clever. yet they are who is leading the industry.

as mikenz said earlier,the only positive is some of us can say,well we told you so.

as i said right from the start,why would anyone line up a 2 year old to get a bonus if it wins,when its not good enough to win ,bonus or no bonus.

After a couple of years of smaller than ever fields,the geniuses at hrnz seemed to cotton on to that and came up with a new scheme. Lets throw a few thousand at them just for starting. No need to win,you can run a tailed off last and still get paid.

Perhaps the srtangest thing about that was you had many trainers saying,yes,thats a great idea,i will spend up big time at the sales and win one of the three larger bonuses and if i dont,instead of turning my horse out after qualifying as a 2 year old,i will keep it going,pay another few weeks training fees,but get those  training fees back by running down the track in a race. You know if someone said that to me beforehand,i would have said,no people aren't that stupid,but hey thats one thing hrnz actually got right going by what trainers have been saying. Having said that,if that actually happens and to what degree,only time will tell.

there have been some positives being pushed by entain which hrnz have implemented in my opinion.its not all negative.Just,when hrnz do the thinking,it seems to be more of the negatives happen.

Edited yesterday at 12:14 AM by the galah

[mikeynz]

And out of curiosity do fillies and mares recieve the same penalty for winning a all in race.

And for that matter should Southern horses recieve same penalty for winning races restricted to south of the Waitaki trained runners.

Edited yesterday at 12:22 AM by mikeynz

[the galah]

this week invercargill have 121 horses accepted to race.They even have ballots for the non win trot.

in july they have 2 meetings that they never had last year.

looking at the numbers,that would be one of the highest number accepted at a southern meeting in the last year.

interestingly the meetings that got the most numbers over the last year ,with just a couple of exceptions,were meetings held  in late april/may and june.

the meetings with the lowest number of starters were from august to mid november.. 

so to me thats an indication that trainers,by this time of the year,realise the very cold months are just around the corner,so they are getting as many runs into them before they ease off on the numbers they train.

if you look at canterbury ,i think you would find the same pattern.

Hrnz  and southern racing administrators obviously are working on the idea that to get the very low numbers running between august and mid november,they will provide new racing dates in july and the southern surge races in august.

sp they sre really saying,keep your horses in training over winter.

well,if trainers do that,which i guess some will,well when do they give their horses a break. Horses aren't machines and if you race and train them all year around,especially in the cold of southland,they will need a break. If you follow the form of horses who have raced in winter before you will observe what i say.It will just dilute their numbers at a different time of year or effect the longevity of the horses.

so what i'm saying is ,long established patterns happen for a reason.

trying to establish new patterns,comes with risks.

its like the things you here administrators always go on about. E.g. we need more young people. Like i've heard that one for donkeys years and adminstrators still ramble on about it when, very obviously,if you want more people involved,target people like your current customes and don't focus on age..

everything to me,is so often viewed upside down by people. 

what should happen is people should go off existing data and patterns that haven't changed for decades.

in other words,work on mamimising returns for southern trainers and owners,that can be achieved  without having more horses race in the middle of winter. in my opinion.

 

Edited 6 hours ago by the galah

[mikeynz]

5 minutes ago, the galah said:

this week invercargill have 121 horses accepted to race.They even have ballots for the non win trot.

in july they have 2 meetings that they never had last year.

looking at the numbers,that would be one of the highest number accepted at a southern meeting in the last year.

interestingly the meetings that got the most numbers over the last year ,with just a couple of exceptions,were meetings held  in late april/may and june.

the meetings with the lowest number of starters were from august to mid november.. 

so to me thats an indication that trainers,by this time of the year,realise the very cold months are just around the corner,so they are getting as many runs into them before they ease off on the numbers they train.

if you look at canterbury ,i think you would find the same pattern.

Hrnz  and southern racing administrators obviously are working on the idea that to get the very low numbers running between august and mid november,they will provide new racing dates in july and the southern surge races in august.

sp they sre really saying,keep your horses in training over winter.

well,if trainers do that,which i guess some will,well when do they give their horses a break. Horses aren't machines and if you race and train them all year around,especially in the cold of southland,they will need a break. If you follow the form of horses who have raced in winter before you will observe what i say.It will just dilute their numbers at a different time of year or effect the longevity of the horses.

so what i'm saying is ,long established patterns happen for a reason.

trying to establish new patterns,comes with risks.

its like the things you here administrators always go on about. E.g. we need more young people. Like i've heard that one for donkeys years and adminstrators still ramble on about it when i thnk they very obviously,if you want more people involved,target people like your current customes and don't focus on age..

everything to me,is so often viewed upside down by people. 

what should happen is people should go off existing data and patterns that haven't changed for decades.

in other words,work on mamimising returns for southern trainers and owners,that can be achieved  without having more horses race in the middle of winter. in my opinion.

 

Think you find that numbers are better as it will be eleven days since Winton, it's only a few days but it does make a difference, next meeting after Monday is ten days as well.

[the galah]

1 hour ago, mikeynz said:

Think you find that numbers are better as it will be eleven days since Winton, it's only a few days but it does make a difference, next meeting after Monday is ten days as well.

yes its a factor,but even when they have 2 meetings in a week they still get their largest numbers, at this time of the year.Theres a definite pattern each year.

like the winton meeting you refer to had 110 starters and there was an invercargill meeting just 4 days prior.

Edited 5 hours ago by the galah