An Open Letter from NZTR, HRNZ and the RIB

[Chief Stipe]

9 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

Stuff written on Harness Forums recently has definitely crossed the line and once again brought this topic to the fore ....many organisations and clubs etc have Codes of Conduct plus the general responsibilites an employee has like ...act in good faith , not divulge sensitive information or tarnish reputations etc .

Correct.  BTW have you looked at some of the abusive stuff you have written lately?

[Chief Stipe]

I think it is timely to remember the RIU vs Kevin Moreton case where it was clearly established that a license holder can make public comments critiquing the actions of the RIB and NZTR within clear boundaries.

I can't find that judgement as it was prior to the period the RIB "upgraded" their website (they should bring those older decisions back online).

@curious do you have the Judgement to post?

[curious]

15 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Colin Wightman aka @Transparency for example does it frequently.  I've even seen examples of licensed individuals crossing the line.

You can critique actions, decisions or lack thereof without denigration or abuse.

I'm not questioning the fact that the line may be crossed on occasion but that's very much by a minority. If it's particular instances that they are concerned about, then it's the RIB's job to address those with those individuals in the same way that they address breaches of rules in races with the individual offenders. They don't send out a letter to all jockeys reminding them of the rules instead. We all know that the rules and codes of conduct are there. 

[Doomed]

59 minutes ago, curious said:

Because of its authoritarian, patronising and bullying tone, that it was seemingly circulated randomly by the RIB, from a nameless author, and evidently with the support of only 2 of the 3 codes they represent.

Which probably indicates that the dogs are even more refined than the gallops, and certainly the trots, and would never stoop to such lows.

[curious]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

I think it is timely to remember the RIU vs Kevin Moreton case where it was clearly established that a license holder can make public comments critiquing the actions of the RIB and NZTR within clear boundaries.

I can't find that judgement as it was prior to the period the RIB "upgraded" their website (they should bring those older decisions back online).

@curious do you have the Judgement to post?

I probably do but can't locate it quickly though I agree it is relevant here, 10 years later. I did find this though which pretty much sums it up.

NON RACEDAY INQUIRY RIU V K MORTON - COSTS DECISION DATED 8 OCTOBER 2015 - CHAIR, MR M MCKECHNIE

Created on 12 October 2015

 

 

BEFORE A JUDICIAL COMMITTEE OF THE

JUDICIAL CONTROL AUTHORITY

UNDER THE RACING ACT 2003

IN THE MATTER of the New Zealand Thoroughbred Rules of Racing

RACING INTEGRITY UNIT (the RIU)

INFORMANT

KEVIN MORTON, Licensed Trainer

DEFENDANT

Judicial Committee: Mr Murray McKechnie, Chairman & Mr Richard Seabrook, Committee Member

Present: Mr Steve Symon, Counsel for RIU

Mr Bryan Oliver
Mr Paul Dale, Counsel for Mr Morton
Mr Greg Purcell
Mr Kevin Morton
Ms Philippa Kinsey, Registrar

DECISION OF NON-RACEDAY JUDICIAL COMMITTEE AS TO COSTS

COSTS DECISION DATED THIS 8th DAY OF OCTOBER 2015

1. INTRODUCTION

1.1 In the written decision of the Non-Raceday Judicial Committee dated 8 September 2015 both parties were invited to file submissions on the issue of costs. These have now been received. In each case they are comprehensive. Mr Dale has filed a submission in reply to that received on behalf of the Informant. Reply submissions were not spoken of in the Committee’s direction as to costs in the decision of 8 September 2015. The reply submissions have been considered by the Committee.Https://bitofayarn.com

1.2 The Rules of Racing provide by Rule 920(3) as follows:

The Judicial Committee may order that all or any of the costs and expenses of:

(a) any party to the hearing;

(b) any other person granted permission to be heard at the hearing by direction of the Judicial Committee;

(c) NZTA and/or any employee or officer thereof; and

(d) the Judicial Control Authority and the Judicial Committee be paid by such person or body as it thinks fit[…].

The Committee has a wide discretion and the rule itself provides little guidance.

1.3 The decision of the Non-Raceday Judicial Committee in NZTR v McAnulty, 29 April 2011 contains a detailed and helpful analysis of how a Committee might approach the application of Rule 920(3). The relevant passage in the decision in NZTR v McAnulty is as follows:

Rule 920(3) provides that the Judicial Committee may order that all or any of the costs and expenses of the NZTR and/or any employee thereof and the Judicial Control Authority and the Judicial Committee be paid by such person as it thinks fit. The discretion to award costs under the Rule is on its face unqualified but obviously is required to be exercised on a principled basis. In New Zealand bodies such as NZTR and the Judicial Control Authority are funded by allocations from the New Zealand Racing Board, and in the case of NZTR, partly from fees and levies. Those funds are utilised to meet expenses incurred whenever it becomes necessary to take proceedings against those bound by the Rules who breach them. Unless adequate and effective steps are taken to recover those expenses, the utilisation of funds for disciplinary purposes is inevitably at the expense of the Judicial Control Authority’s and NZTR’s other activities in relation to the racing industry. On the face of it there seems no compelling reason in principle why those whose conduct has led to the institution of disciplinary procedures should not, within limits, bear the expense of those procedures if they are ultimately found to have breached the Rules as charged. Obviously given the nature and intended width of the discretion conferred by Rule 920(3) that factor will not necessarily be the only consideration to be brought to account in deciding to award costs and fixing the quantum in any case, but there seems no reason why that should not be the starting point for the exercise of the discretion in any given instance.

1.4 In this Committee’s view the reasoning set out above has equal application when a charge laid under the Rules of Racing has not been made out and proved.

2 THE CHARGES BROUGHT AGAINST MR MORTON

2.1 Two (2) informations were laid under Rule 801(1)(s)(ii) alleging the commission of two serious racing offences. The curious circumstances leading to the laying of the second information with reference to Mr Purcell are set out in the decision of the Committee of 8 September 2015. Rule 801(1)(s)(ii) is framed to address inappropriate behaviour of the worst kind. That is plain from the penalty provisions in Rule 801(2). Given how persons accused of abusive behaviour have previously been prosecuted: refer Third Minute of the Committee dated 28 July 2015, the laying of the informations in this case under Rule 801(1)(s)(ii) was plainly inconsistent with the approach previously adopted by the RIU. The evidence to support the allegations of behaviour constituting serious racing offences bordered on the hopeless. Both informations were dismissed.

2.2 After many months alternative informations were laid by the Informant under Rule 340. That is known as The Misconduct Rule. This is the rule under which the Informant ought to have proceeded throughout. For reasons explained in the decision of 8 September 2015 the Committee held that what was alleged against Mr Morton did not involve language that was insulting or abusive or which called into question the integrity of the persons about whom he spoke. The misconduct charges were dismissed.

3. SUBMISSIONS FOR MR MORTON

3.1 Mr Dale submitted that the Committee should be guided by the High Court Rules. It is said that a 2B basis is appropriate.

3.2 Following reference to the High Court Rules there is a submission for Mr Morton that he should have increased or indemnity costs. The Committee was furnished with a copy of the judgment of the Court of Appeal in Bradbury v Westpac Banking Corporation [2009] 3 NZLR 400. The Committee has carefully considered that judgment and also the judgment of Harrison J at first instance.

3.3 The costs calculated on a 2B basis under the High Court Rules come to $19,104.00. There are disbursements for the witness Mr Gardner totally $668.00. Mr Dale advised the Committee that the actual legal costs incurred by Mr Morton were $20,094.59. Mr Morton makes no claim for costs incurred before Mr Dale was instructed.

3.4 Mr Dale in his first submission indicated that he was not aware of any precedent by Non-Raceday Judicial Committees or Appeal Tribunals as to how costs were to be set. There are in fact a number of decisions which give some assistance. Some of these are referred to in the submissions filed for the RIU. They are known to the Committee. Reference NZTR v McAnulty in paragraph 1.3 and those decisions set out in paragraph 4.3 below.

3.5 Mr Dale in his reply submission pointed to a posting by the RIU on its website following the decision of the Committee on 8 September 2015. Mr Dale submitted with reference to that posting “the message may not necessarily have got through to the RIU”. The Committee declines to make any comment whatever in relation to the website posting by the RIU.

4 SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RIU

4.1 Mr Symon first submitted that there is no presumption that costs will be awarded in favour of a successful party. While there is nothing in the relevant rule to suggest that costs must follow the Committee’s determination it has long been the practice of Non-Raceday Judicial Committees and Appeal Tribunals to make costs awards where the circumstances are thought to be appropriate.

4.2 The RIU submissions then make reference to the Costs in Criminal Cases Act 1967. That is a restrictive piece of legislation and is of little assistance. There is then reference to the District Court Rules 2014. It is contended that the nature of the proceeding against Mr Morton bears better comparison to proceedings in the District Court than proceedings in the High Court. There is some force in that submission. The facts in this case were comparatively straight forward. No involved legal issues were presented. Regrettably however a good deal of irrelevant evidence was tendered and ruled inadmissible.

4.3 Mr Symon drew attention to a number of contemporary relevant decisions in thoroughbred and harness racing. These are:

• Butcher v RIU, 21 December 2011
• RIU v Fisher, Macrae & Faber, 2 September 2014
• Sir Patrick & Lady Hogan & Walker V RIU, 22 April 2015
• McDonald & Donaldson v RIU, 7 August 2015

The Committee is familiar with the decisions just referred to and indeed the Chairman had an involvement in three of the decisions set out above.

4.4 Mr Symon with reference to the decision of the Appeals Tribunal in Butcher v RIU 21 December 2011 drew attention to a judgment of Devlin LJ, as he then was which made a distinction between costs in civil litigation where parties act in their own interests and costs where a prosecutor is fulfilling a statutory function. The learned Judge was of the view that costs against a prosecutor fulfilling a statutory functions should not be at the same level as might be awarded against a litigant who had failed when seeking to advance his or her own personal or financial interests.

4.5 A calculation of costs under the District Court Rules 2014 results in a figure of $8099.00. The RIU submits that costs in favour of Mr Morton in the sum of $8,000.00 would be appropriate. Further the RIU acknowledges that some contribution should be made towards the costs of the Judicial Control Authority.

5. THE POSITION OF THE JUDICIAL CONTROL AUTHORITY (THE JCA)

5.1 The JCA has been put to considerable expense. The principal items are the following:

• Fees to Committee members (estimate)      8,000.00
• Travel expenses                                            440.00
• Teleconferences                                            100.00
• Ellerslie room hire and catering                     822.00
                                                                   $9,362.00

5.2 Further it should be emphasised that the Committee was required to consider a significant volume of material tendered to it which was ruled to be irrelevant.

6. DISCUSSION

6.1 The Committee determined that the criticisms and comments which Mr Morton directed at Messrs Neal and Purcell were within permitted limits. The RIU originally chose not to lay any charge or charges in relation to what was said about Mr Purcell. That position was changed as a result of what was essentially an invitation by Mr Morton’s supporter Mr Molloy to have a further charge laid. The RIU would have been wise not to have responded as it did.

6.2 It is not accepted that proceedings under the Rules of Racing and certainly the issues raised before this Committee make a comparison with the High Court Rules appropriate. The conduct of litigation in the High Court generally involves extensive preparation. That preparation is often in relation to evidence to be tendered, the cross examination of witnesses and the making of legal submissions. While Mr Dale’s submissions are helpful the Committee considers that the time required for the preparation of this proceeding does not bear a valid comparison with the preparation of what is known as a witness action in the High Court.

6.3 As to the claim for indemnity costs the Committee has carefully considered the judgment of the Court of Appeal in Bradbury v Westpac Banking Corporation (supra) and other authorities in relation to applications to fix indemnity costs. In the Committee’s view the necessary criteria for an indemnity award have not been made out. There is no evidence of an ulterior or improper motive on the part of the RIU. The hearing was not unduly extended. While the informations alleging serious racing offences had almost no prospect of succeeding the informations alleging misconduct were not completely without merit. There was an argument – not found persuasive – to be made suggesting that the language used by Mr Morton had gone too far.

6.4 Non-Raceday Judicial Committees and Appeal Tribunals have in the past observed that the quantum of costs should, in part at least, reflect the relative merits of the position taken by the parties. The sparseness of the case for the Informant is a legitimate consideration in setting a costs figure higher than might otherwise have been the case. The Committee in its written decision of 8 September 2015 made plain that it thought that the prosecution of Mr Morton was misguided. In consequence Mr Morton has been put to very significant expense. In those circumstances a costs award somewhat greater than would otherwise have been ordered is appropriate. With reference to proceedings before Disciplinary Tribunals which govern the conduct of licence holders reference has been made to the very recent judgment of the High Court in Cooper v Waikato Bay of Plenty Standards Committee No 2 of the New Zealand Law Society [2015] NZHC 2352, Venning J, 28 September 2015. Mindful of the costs actually incurred by Mr Morton and sums that have been awarded on previous occasions (again referNZTR v McAnulty) an appropriate figure for the RIU to pay Mr Morton would be $13,000.00. That figure includes an allowance for the submissions on costs.

6.5 Mr Morton makes a claim for the witness expenses of Mr Gardiner. That is a matter for resolution between Messrs Morton and Gardiner.

6.6 As to the position of the JCA a meaningful contribution to the costs incurred is appropriate. Extended briefs of evidence were put before the Committee. Significant passages were ruled out. Both counsel had at various times filed written legal submissions which required careful consideration. All of what has just been spoken of was time consuming. The hearing at Ellerslie extended over a full day and it was necessary thereafter for the Committee members to deliberate before issuing a written decision. Having regard to all of these circumstances an appropriate figure to be paid towards the costs of the JCA would be $7,500.00.

6.7 There will be a costs award in Mr Morton’s favour payable by the RIU of $13,000.00. There will be a costs award payable by the RIU to the JCA in the sum of $7,500.00.

DATED this 8th day of October 2015

Murray McKechnie

Chairman

Signed pursuant to Rule 920(4)

[Gammalite]

13 minutes ago, curious said:

They don't send out a letter to all jockeys reminding them of the rules instead. We all know that the rules and codes of conduct are there.

Often the Jockeys are reminded before a Big race in front of the stewards and are reminded of what the rules are . Even the best of people need a reminder at some times. ALL Forums have to post a Code of Conduct on a side window  that covers a few basics about ones behaviour and input on a forum   .A lot of you blokes have passed on reading it is the problem .

A lot of the forum threads I've noticed are EXACTLY about the rules being broken and what-not by jockeys. So maybe they SHould be reminded what their obligations are?  ( to the horse that you carry on about frequently, and to their conduct , and to each other ) 

IT's a Pity the road traffic department didn't send a 'Open letter'  notice to ALL Road-users. Road safety is Poor at present and conduct and rules are broken that frequently ,it's ridiculous.  They need a big reminder on their conduct. No doubt you would be offended if you got one though. 

 

[curious]

And this as a reminder at least of the issues.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/racing/71565798/new-zealand-jockeys-horses-at-risk-over-state-of-racetracks

[Murray Fish]

2 hours ago, curious said:

And this as a reminder at least of the issues.

""Testing the safety of tracks by running races on them is unconscionable. So if the finger is pointed at the stewards responsible on the day that is surely reasonable"

There has been some progress re this sort of thing!  enough?

[curious]

5 minutes ago, Murray Fish said:

""Testing the safety of tracks by running races on them is unconscionable. So if the finger is pointed at the stewards responsible on the day that is surely reasonable"

There has been some progress re this sort of thing!  enough?

Not in my view. They have got better at discontinuing meetings when tracks prove unsafe, but not much at determining they are unsafe before sending horses and riders out to test them at racing speeds and conditions. What do you think?

[Special Agent]

2 hours ago, curious said:

And this as a reminder at least of the issues.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/racing/71565798/new-zealand-jockeys-horses-at-risk-over-state-of-racetracks

The issues of today don't look to have changed much from 2015.

[Murray Fish]

(plus)  

Dale submitted. 

It was unlikely the industry could be damaged by a posting on an industry website where views were freely exchanged. (ends)

surely this must still apply?  including facebook pages/groups as in the one where Colon W posts a lot

https://www.facebook.com/groups/424229018789803

 

 

[curious]

2 minutes ago, Murray Fish said:

(plus)  

Dale submitted. 

It was unlikely the industry could be damaged by a posting on an industry website where views were freely exchanged. (ends)

surely this must still apply?  including facebook pages/groups as in the one where Colon W posts a lot

https://www.facebook.com/groups/424229018789803

 

 

Yep. And the JCA (McKechnie in particular) had continually tried to point out to the RIU in pre-hearing meetings in that case that the rules of racing can't over-ride existing human rights law, so expressing subjective or factually supported opinions has to be OK whether they like the criticism or not.

[Chief Stipe]

16 minutes ago, curious said:

Not in my view. They have got better at discontinuing meetings when tracks prove unsafe, but not much at determining they are unsafe before sending horses and riders out to test them at racing speeds and conditions. What do you think?

I've been saying for quite some time that the quality control protocols, rules and regulations are in place but there doesn't seem to be any Quality Assurance (QA) going on PRIOR to racemeetings commencing.  I thought that the QA role belongs to the RIB.  For example reported track ratings.  Surely their accuracy is a good guide to the safety of a track or at least a starting point.  If those ratings and the underlying measurements are being fudged which they clearly are at Trentham and Riccarton (Turf and AWT) (Ellerslie?) then how can you proactively address track safety?

I don't recall ever seeing Stewards walk a whole track BEFORE the races start and a horse slips. 

[Chief Stipe]

12 minutes ago, Murray Fish said:

(plus)  

Dale submitted. 

It was unlikely the industry could be damaged by a posting on an industry website where views were freely exchanged. (ends)

surely this must still apply?  including facebook pages/groups as in the one where Colon W posts a lot

https://www.facebook.com/groups/424229018789803

 

 

No point posting that link - many many decent people have been banned from that site.  You would be better to screen shot/snip and post the image.

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, curious said:

so expressing subjective or factually supported opinions has to be OK whether they like the criticism or not.

Yes but there is line that some individuals such as Wightman ( @Transparency ) frequently cross.  Which only negates any opinion be it subjective or factually supported.

[the galah]

5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Why do you think that the Letter is aiming at the likes of House and Jones?  Their opinions were not abusive or personally denigrating.

i never said the letter was aimed at m house.Not sure why you said that bit to me.

This is the only social media forum i'm on and the only time i've seen mr house make comment is on the unhinged content ,that i  used to be able to  access.. Everytime i've seen him comment over the years  he has been consistent in what he has said.

i've always interpreted his comments to be addressing what he believes is a priority for the industry.That is,industry policies which invest in and lead to maintaining participation in the profitable revenue generating sector of the industry,i.e. the races with the best  turnover/stakes paid ratio ,where the bulk of the racing participants operate.

like its just common sense to me that if you have someone who operates mostly within that sector and who is day in and day out, speaking to people who participate,then what better voice to listen to.

Mark jones is another person who has a similar background and network of contacts, which keeps him in touch with the pulse of  the racing industries wellbeing and participants thinking.

from my observation and research over the years,companies who last and who generate long term profits,focus on maintaining and expanding the profitable sectors of their business.Thats not what nz harness racing are doing. Instead they are following the path of the ones who fold or who generate losses,which is to direct resources to areas that are unprofitable and unlikely to increase revenue,even with extra investment.

just common sense and i think mr house and mr jones express mostly common sense and logical thinking.

you may not have thought mr jones letter overstepped the line. If you think everything he said was acceptable,then fair enough.but i said at the time i thought a small part of his letter overstepped the mark and that as a result we will see efforts by officialdom to limit all comment.And that is exactly what we got,thats why we are discussing this topic. You may think its just coincidental,i don't and  found the  adherence to racing code of conduct response predictable.After all ,they are predictable.

i think people should analysis why you areand they should ask themselves,why was there a need to try and limit public content.

to me its an obvious sign that leadeship realise they are not getting the results hoped for from some of the policies they have implemented and have found by prioritising different sectors over other sectors,within the industry has lead to negtive impacts.

and leadership are particularly sensitive because many of their critics said,do that and this will happen. And well,it turns some of their critics actually have a better understanding of what works,where resources should go to get the most beneficial results for the industry.

the newsletter we.re discussing about code of conduct is just a symptom of poor decision making by leadership.

That is where people should be focussing,not on code of conduct letters.

Edited 2 hours ago by the galah

[westbrew]

I agree Chief, there has to be a line. However that being said i am of the old school and  we learnt very young, Sticks and stones will break bones but names will never hurt you. While there are many opinions i have come across in life that I disagree with, I will always defend peoples right to hold and voice those opinions as long as they are within the bounds of our countries Laws. The simple answer for our friends at NZTR/HRNZ and The Ministry of Racing (AKA as RIB) is to charge those who do not follow the code of conduct with offences under the rules of racing. But maybe the Ministry Of Racing now has more people sitting in offices writing such letters than they actually have working at the races. Last count from the RIU/JCA days of 4 Full time office staff and 1 part timer the Ministry is up to about 14 or 15 Full time office roles plus some outsourcing, so guess this is what the industry will get more of.     

[Chief Stipe]

19 minutes ago, the galah said:

and leadership are particularly sensitive because many of their critics said,do that and this will happen. And well,it turns some of their critics actually have a better understanding of what works,where resources should go to get the most beneficial results for the industry.

Maybe.

20 minutes ago, the galah said:

the newsletter we.re discussing about code of conduct is just a symptom of poor decision making by leadership.

That is where people should be focussing,not on code of conduct letters.

I disagree.  I think the letter is a timely reminder that there is a limit to what can be said online.

Yes be highly critical but don't cross the line into personal abuse and name calling.  As one forum owner who quotes his mother - "you can't put brains in statues" should reflect on his comments that labels some administrators as "tossers and muppets in suits".  That would indicate he is a statue.

So with regard to the letter I don't see it as poor leadership.  Perhaps it could have been written differently to appeal to the sensitivities of the likes of @curious but it does highlight that certain behaviour won't be tolerated.  

[westbrew]

Disagree Chief, it highlights that they like writing letters, Charging those who cross the line highlights that certain behavior won't be tolerated. And now with NZ punters not able to bet offshore maybe the codes just want to try and keep all the sheep quiet so there is no dissent in the ranks. 

[Chief Stipe]

20 minutes ago, westbrew said:

I agree Chief, there has to be a line. However that being said i am of the old school and  we learnt very young, Sticks and stones will break bones but names will never hurt you. While there are many opinions i have come across in life that I disagree with, I will always defend peoples right to hold and voice those opinions as long as they are within the bounds of our countries Laws.

I don't think the letter is questioning the right to have an opinion just how that opinion is delivered.  Yes sticks and stones hurt but so does repetitive harassment and name calling by the uninformed.  Who in their right mind would want to be a track manager in NZ?  Further on that I wonder if NZTR will reprimand those licenses and paid commentators that attacked the new HB track manager?

24 minutes ago, westbrew said:

The simple answer for our friends at NZTR/HRNZ and The Ministry of Racing (AKA as RIB) is to charge those who do not follow the code of conduct with offences under the rules of racing.

Agreed.  One owner in particular should get more than a slaps however the last thing we need is him being married a martyr.

26 minutes ago, westbrew said:

Last count from the RIU/JCA days of 4 Full time office staff and 1 part timer the Ministry is up to about 14 or 15 Full time office roles plus some outsourcing, so guess this is what the industry will get more of.     

Yes and even then they are not doing accurately or consistently what they are tasked to do.

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, westbrew said:

Disagree Chief, it highlights that they like writing letters, Charging those who cross the line highlights that certain behavior won't be tolerated. And now with NZ punters not able to bet offshore maybe the codes just want to try and keep all the sheep quiet so there is no dissent in the ranks. 

You are confounding different issues but perhaps this is just a warning shot.  What is Wightman saying on FB?

[westbrew]

I am one of a very small group i suspect who has managed to navigate thru life without reference to what i call The Facebook. 

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, westbrew said:

I am one of a very small group i suspect who has managed to navigate thru life without reference to what i call The Facebook. 

Lucky you!! You've missed some quite outlandish abusive posts from Wightman.  LOL then again he did show himself up to be a hypocrite of the first order.  He was quick to get into the OBC Trough when he sold a share in Pivotal 10.

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

Yes be highly critical but don't cross the line into personal abuse and name calling.  

no argument there.

My point  is theres an inference that part of the intent of  this letter is to suppress the expression of dissenting opinions, and they have used the basis of the letter ,as those dissenting opinions sometimes give names of those they feel are making poor decisions.They can focus on the names,the dissenting views focus is on the industries wellbeing.m

so in its own a way,the letter is proof theres merit in what the people they are trying to silence ,are saying.

Its like a circle which has a beginning and an end with governance of the industry.There needs to be self reflection by the decision makers in favour of that letter.

Edited 54 minutes ago by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

26 minutes ago, the galah said:

so in its own a way,the letter is proof theres merit in what the people they are trying to silence ,are saying.

I disagree.  Your post prompted me to read the letter again and in my opinion the letter makes a strong statement about the extreme abuse some individuals are resorting to.

I just hope they act against the worst offenders.