Here come the Nutters! Becks Nairn. Thanks Winnie.

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

There is a difference between expressing an opinion backed up by evidence and fact than one based on prejudice, innuendo and hearsay.

What's worse is when some individual's do the latter hiding behind non-de-plumes or like Wightman hide in private groups making attacks.  

If you are going to say things like "there is widespread illegal doping and corruption in racing" based on nothing but ill informed opinion then you are damaging the sport you allege to love or you are in disguise and actually do want to bring it down.

The Open Letter from the RIB, NZTR and HRNZ had a valid point.  I just wish they do more about dealing to the crap from the likes of Wightman and others.

 

your just doing what you do again chief,just muddying the waters.

the lady,in the interview, went into a detailed background of her involvement in rehoming and animal welfare, she referred to her experiences over years.

when was the last time you talked to a pet food man about whats happening in the racing industry. when was the last time you had interaction with someone from the spca or hrnz over animal welfare, when was the last time you had tried to rehome horses,tried to find suitable grazing.etc,etc,etc. well i've personally experienced having to deal with all the shit that goes with that over time.

 discredit what this lady is saying or i am saying as much as you want.

All yourcomments are  doing is actually confirming what i'm saying,that you've got your head in the sand and are happy with the window dressing the industry puts on these matters.

like it or not,this lady,has shown with the platforms she now has,that  she has a degree of influence in the publics perceptions of the industry.

i've never said people like this lady are perfect or that i fully agree with her..She gives me the impression that she may jump to conclusions too easily. But her heart is defintely in the right place .

Edited Saturday at 10:33 PM by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

52 minutes ago, the galah said:

your just doing what you do again chief,just muddying the waters.

And you're not muddying the waters with your unsupported opinions and allegations?

57 minutes ago, the galah said:

the lady,in the interview, went into a detailed background of her involvement in rehoming and animal welfare, she referred to her experiences over years.

Perhaps she did but she, like your, drew unsupported conclusions based on pseudoscience and subjective analysis.  Neither of which she has experience let alone expertise in. 

59 minutes ago, the galah said:

when was the last time you talked to a pet food man about whats happening in the racing industry.

I have no issue with a horse being turned into pet food just as I don't have an issue with dairy or beef cows going the same way.  That's the cycle of life.  

1 hour ago, the galah said:

when was the last time you had interaction with someone from the spca or hrnz over animal welfare, when was the last time you had tried to rehome horses,tried to find suitable grazing.etc,etc,etc. well i've personally experienced having to deal with all the shit that goes with that over time.

Then perhaps more should go via the petfood route rather than spending the rest of their life bored in a paddock.  As for the rehoming of racehorses the hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me of those who breed or buy a horse, race it and love it and all the fun but then start crying a river when the realise they have to do something with it when it has stopped being productive.  

1 hour ago, the galah said:

 discredit what this lady is saying or i am saying as much as you want.

Yes I will although it is easy to do so because neither of you present facts or evidence to support your generalised opinions.

1 hour ago, the galah said:

All yourcomments are  doing is actually confirming what i'm saying,that you've got your head in the sand and are happy with the window dressing the industry puts on these matters.

Window dressing what?  I'm pragmatic about livestock and I'm pragmatic about an industry that breeds and races horses as part of a business and professional sport.  You can't sugar coat the hard facts.  If you want to be vegan or wear plastic shoes then go for it but don't foist your opinions on me.  

1 hour ago, the galah said:

like it or not,this lady,has shown with the platforms she now has,that  she has a degree of influence in the publics perceptions of the industry.

Perhaps she does just like some "influencers" are convinced that man didn't land on the moon.  But why let a nutter influence what the industry does?  Why don't we have people holding up cans of pet food to all the dog lovers saying "my horse keeps your dog happy and fed"?

1 hour ago, the galah said:

i've never said people like this lady are perfect or that i fully agree with her..She gives me the impression that she may jump to conclusions too easily. But her heart is defintely in the right place .

That about sums it up "her heart is in the right place".  However her head is in space.

[Chief Stipe]

Also @the galah if you and this woman were balanced in your views you wouldn't label Xenon a "fridge gas" to sensationalise your viewpoint.  The fact is it isn't a fridge gas except in very high end applications.  For a start it is very rare and expensive to procur.  It is an inert noble gas and does have actual medical uses.  I don't recall reading anyone being caught administering Xenon gas to horses.  Regardless logic would tell you that obtaining sufficient Xenon secretly to administer in any quantity to your horses would be an extremely expensive and problematic process. 

I put it in the same league as the emotional description of formaldehyde being an "undertakers embalming fluid".  As I've pointed out many times before it is an essential chemical to life and is naturally produced in all our bodies and is essential in cell funciton.  It is also used as a treatment for toughening horses hooves.  It has been a common livestock feed additive used to control dangerous pathogens such as E. coli and Salmonella.  It is even present in fruits and vegetables at levels around 50ppm.

Anyone administering either (Xenon - nebuliser, Formaldehyde - intraveneously) would not be achieving anything performance wise but more likely the opposite.  Why would they do it?  Probably because they are dumb and ignorant.

But "fridge gas" and "embalming fluid" gets great headlines in a podcast or the Otago Daily Times and has you pursing your lips and sucking a lemon.  If I have any criticism of the RIB, NZTR and HRNZ it is that they don't tackle this BS head on.  One by saying it is BS and two educating dumb trainers who may consider transgressing that they are not achieving anything.

Further the RIB, NZTR and HRNZ in my opinion should be doing more with regard to research what therapuetic treatments ARE good for horse health.  Alongside that they should standardise the rules on prohibited substances and withholding periods and have a more scientific basied approach on environmental contamination.  They wasted over $10m of industry money on pursuing INCA when it could have been better spent on being positive.  Heads should roll for that debacle but they are so entrenched in the negative culture that they'll be there until retirement.

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

I have no issue with a horse being turned into pet food just as I don't have an issue with dairy or beef cows going the same way.  That's the cycle of life.  

Then perhaps more should go via the petfood route rather than spending the rest of their life bored in a paddock.  As for the rehoming of racehorses the hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me of those who breed or buy a horse, race it and love it and all the fun but then start crying a river when the realise they have to do something with it when it has stopped being productive.  

Window dressing what?  I'm pragmatic about livestock and I'm pragmatic about an industry that breeds and races horses as part of a business and professional sport.  You can't sugar coat the hard facts.  If you want to be vegan or wear plastic shoes then go for it but don't foist your opinions on me.  

 

i'm expressing my opinions,but i'm not foisting my opinions on anyone like you suggest. Read my comments and you can see that.

i have no control over what you or others do with your ex racehorses or your dairy cows,nor want any input.

i know your from a dairying background.

dairy farming is an industry which i think has many negatives,but i realise thats just the way it is.it ain't going to change as they know how to make money and farmers  are all about making money,like everyone else.

you brought up the dairy industry. Now theres an industry that i really do believe has some issues.

in my opinion,i think theres something not quite right with an industry with the common  practice of sending  4 day old bobby calves off to slaughter. I have spoken to someone whose job it was to chase the wee calves into the area where they were slaughtered at the works. One day he told me he was so buggered as he had to carry more than normal to the appropriate area ,as the calves simply did not have enough energy to stand anymore,which he put down to the length of travel they had already endured.That bloke told me he had regular  nightmares and was looking for another job as it just wasn't worth it,despite the good money he was paid.

I've also in the past spoken to an english vet who came out to the local dairying region,to ply his trade,i also got to speak to him on the day he flew back to england. He cut his stay short and told me he was very much looking to going back to england as he felt conflicted in nz. He said he had become a vet to look after animals health,not to put a bolt through the head of days old bobby calves as he was being asked to do on such a large scale.He said nz dairy farmers,especially the corporates,were all about the money and being a vet in nz just wasn't for him..

But i realise thats just the way it is. Pragmatic you call it. It do get that,but i don't have to think its a good thing.

[curious]

It's probably a bit of a complex ethical/cultural question, but In my view you can't really compare end of life decisions for animals produced for food with decisions about those produced for sport, gambling and entertainment. Though humaneness and welfare are common to both.

Edited 23 hours ago by curious

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, curious said:

It's probably a bit of a complex ethical/cultural question, but In my view you can't really compare end of life decisions for animals produced for food with decisions about those produced for sport, gambling and entertainment. Though humaneness and welfare are common to both.

Why not compare them?  I guess you've never had an insane horse that no matter what you did was always dangerous.  No I'm guessing if you did you blamed yourself.

Isn't it hypocritical to elevate animals that you produce for sport above similar animals you produce to eat?  The sport animal lives a lot longer than the one you want to eat.

[curious]

3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Why not compare them?  I guess you've never had an insane horse that no matter what you did was always dangerous.  No I'm guessing if you did you blamed yourself.

No. Never had or seen an insane horse, and you are right, if I did, I'd blame myself in the first instance.

[Chief Stipe]

3 hours ago, the galah said:

i'm expressing my opinions,but i'm not foisting my opinions on anyone like you suggest. Read my comments and you can see that.

Right so we just ignore you.

3 hours ago, the galah said:

i have no control over what you or others do with your ex racehorses or your dairy cows,nor want any input.

Then why comment?

3 hours ago, the galah said:

in my opinion,i think theres something not quite right with an industry with the common  practice of sending  4 day old bobby calves off to slaughter.

How old should they be?  4 days?  Three months?  Two years?

4 hours ago, the galah said:

He cut his stay short and told me he was very much looking to going back to england as he felt conflicted in nz. He said he had become a vet to look after animals health,not to put a bolt through the head of days old bobby calves as he was being asked to do on such a large scale.He said nz dairy farmers,especially the corporates,were all about the money and being a vet in nz just wasn't for him..

And England is a cot case as a country.  Happy to eat other countries meat but not their own.  So your vet friend faced reality and didn't like it.

Did he inspire you to go vegetarian?  Or maybe halal killed animals while facing Mecca?

I guess you don't eat chicken either.  

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, curious said:

No. Never had or seen an insane horse, and you are right, if I did, I'd blame myself in the first instance.

I have.  If you have a stable of 20 or more horses then at least one of them is nuts.  Their only excuse for living is if they can run fast.

[Huey]

40 minutes ago, curious said:

No. Never had or seen an insane horse, and you are right, if I did, I'd blame myself in the first instance.

Amateur owner!

 

[Huey]

32 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I have.  If you have a stable of 20 or more horses then at least one of them is nuts.  Their only excuse for living is if they can run fast.

1 in 20 LMAO

[curious]

47 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I have.  If you have a stable of 20 or more horses then at least one of them is nuts.  Their only excuse for living is if they can run fast.

I've worked in a number of places with 100s of horses and none that I would describe as nuts.

[Gammalite]

51 minutes ago, curious said:

I've worked in a number of places with 100s of horses and none that I would describe as nuts.

We just cut the nuts out , when breaking in the yearlings in half the time 😋.  that way their nuts won't drive you nuts when they start playing up when they get older and colty. the One bloody stallion on the place out of 20 horses , who all behaved impeccably  (except for a few tantrums at feed time sometimes waiting for their tucker) and the stallion would be the nutter trying to bite ya all the time. He might not of been nuts , but certainly drove me nuts 😁 . and plenty of bruises dished out too . 'Sammy Shark' I called him. would love to of ripped his nuts off  🤣

 

[the galah]

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

Isn't it hypocritical to elevate animals that you produce for sport above similar animals you produce to eat?  

i agree with that,but believe its a good thing if people with horses do see them differently as curious says, because that way they have a better chance of a longer enjoyable life.And thats what i'm all for if possible.

i get that everyones reality is different. I've never told anyone what they should or shouldn't be doing with their horses, on the contrary,i have been told many ,many times over the years  i should dispose of our older horses Thats why, when you said to me,don't foist my opinions on you ,i thought,hang on,the  opposite is actually true.its others who think like you who have tried to foist their opinions on me. I'm not saying you are trying to do that,but that is what i have had to listen from many others over the years.

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

how old should they be?  4 days?  Three months?  Two years?

Did he inspire you to go vegetarian?  Or maybe halal killed animals while facing Mecca?

I guess you don't eat chicken either.  

the dairy cows,in my ideal world they should be given a gradual stress free reduction in reliance on their mums,and they should a least be given the chance of life to the point where they would have been weaned by their mums had it occurred naturally..6 to 8 months of life seems a much better outcome than 4 days. Actually i go past some dairy farms each day and have observed how the mums look and behave. I get the impression its soul destroying to see their calves removerd after 4 days. Thats what they look like they are thinking to me.You would know that anyway.But hey that ain't going to happen,its unrealistic as farming is all about the money these days. I have known dairy farmers,who actually don't send their bobby calves away at 4 days old,simply because they don't feel comfaortable treating their animals that way.

i'm not vegaterian,but only eat meat about 2 or 3 times a year.  No chicken. just fish and veges these days..But each to their own. I never preach to anyone about not eating meat.personal choice is what i believe in.

Edited 15 hours ago by the galah

[Freda]

9 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I have.  If you have a stable of 20 or more horses then at least one of them is nuts.  Their only excuse for living is if they can run fast.

Bollocks.

[Gammalite]

15 hours ago, curious said:

It's probably a bit of a complex ethical/cultural question, but In my view you can't really compare end of life decisions for animals produced for food with decisions about those produced for sport, gambling and entertainment. Though humaneness and welfare are common to both.

Absolutely. There is so much things that go on . Horse meat is more accepted in some countries than in others. for human consumption. Pet food has been around for ages. There are 2 horses abbotoirs in Aus , and the process is quite traumatic for most. Horses and People . as they have to accept that animals meet their demise here . Horses being a magnificent companion /working/ recreation animal to us all in these forums (at some stage) so are really effected by the goings on . Like the Galah has expressed and the lady expressing concerns that this thread was based on for horse welfare.  Curious even showing empathy/sympathy for race horses under race conditions many times , in the great Whip debate. 

I towed a galloper to that horse abbotoir near brisbane once. Meramist . Actually a slaughterhouse more than an abbotoir with the difference being protocols that involve procedure and stock whether being processed for human consumption or pet food.  I am plagued by the memory going there,  as a favour to the horses elderly owner. the horse with a irreparable knee injury , that was making horse uncomfortable , and no chance of any riding future. Was a traumatic experience, as a Semi arrived on site while I was there, with must of been 100 Brumbies onboard. Horses in holding pens with a legs swinging in the air bone snapped off and all sorts of trauma inflicted animals. I could never go to that place again ever , as some sights are better unseen. Once you've worked hard to keep horses in Tip Top condition for years it's Impossible on your brain to see them like that. as the Galah described with Bobby calves above some things have an effect..

Tasmania harness has a harsh reality that the stock of the Yole stables (horses too slow to race on the mainland) were being sent to Tassie to complete their racing days . very cheap training . very harsh conditions weather and stabling wise . Ben Yole (one time leading Aus trainer by number of race wins , ) from having 60 of the 90 runners competing at some meetings and stupid things like that. From must of been near 100 horses on the property . the logistics make it impossible to treat them the way most stables would. They all fed and rugged and that , and raced until they just couldn't earn another cent. so were chopped up for a Greyhound trainer mate down the road. This system seems very un-ethical ? , but bloodstock agents were still putting horses with him . as they have $10 per week shareholders to 'look after' . Aaron Bain Bloodstock and Summit Bloodstock still place horses with him to THIS day 😧. They even race 3 year old Midnight Miki (in 'penny' shares with others ) at Mark Purdon's famous NZ Stable  . Midnight Miki is One of the favs for the NZ Derby soon . So have a whole range of horses everywhere. that ultimately meet their demise at the Yoles or something similar. I see a lot of old QLD runners there and that , once they are not earning here. that these Bloodstock agents pick up for $10 owner shares ( they go a few seconds slower in Tas racing generally) 

is it ethical ? someone pays training Fees I spose, but with so many horses and owners , these bloodstock agents have ways of clearing unwanted stock .some will end up at the slaughterhouse . ( Gallopers trainers can clear the syndicated race-Mares in Broodmare sales for example.  as happened with Melody Belle and that.) so there are other ways of clearing stock out of training.  

footnote: Ben Yole and brother Tim currently disqualified 18months for horse cruelty in Tas. (some nasty things they were doing that are quite horrid) so horse's all race in their elderly fathers name Wayne, as trainer currently . so there are ways around things things. Tas Racing limited the stable starters number (from any stable)  to 4 runners per race to stop the 'Flood of Runners' strategy they used for a few years to load and win races,  but involved match fixing. 

[Chief Stipe]

13 hours ago, curious said:

No. Never had or seen an insane horse, and you are right, if I did, I'd blame myself in the first instance.

To quote @Freda "Bollocks".  You've never seen a horse seriously maim a human?  That't right it's your fault the horse is blameless.

[Chief Stipe]

11 hours ago, Gammalite said:

'Sammy Shark' I called him. would love to of ripped his nuts off  🤣

But that would have been cruel and unjust.

[Chief Stipe]

4 hours ago, Freda said:

Bollocks.

Since when have you had more than 20 horses in work at once?

[Chief Stipe]

16 hours ago, curious said:

It's probably a bit of a complex ethical/cultural question, but In my view you can't really compare end of life decisions for animals produced for food with decisions about those produced for sport, gambling and entertainment. Though humaneness and welfare are common to both.

Why the puritannical difference?  Both livestock and bloodstock are bred for profit regardless of how they earn it.  A dairy cow exists in a perpetual cycle of lactation for nearly the entire year to produce milk fat for human consumption.  It doesn't have a personal attendant nor 3 feeds a day in a nice warm stable.  What's ethical about that? 

As for the "cultural" argument.  It's a nonsense and nothing more than conceptual construct looking for uniformity.  Of course it doesn't stop anomalies occurring like the poor deprived Iwi organisations that pay less company tax than anyone else.  

@curious you seem to be having a late life crisis where you have this guilt about gambling and horses as entertainment.  What about those horse sports that don't involve gambling?  Do you want them banned as well?  I guess Polo is definitely off the list.

[Chief Stipe]

9 hours ago, the galah said:

i'm not vegaterian,but only eat meat about 2 or 3 times a year.  No chicken. just fish and veges these days..But each to their own. I never preach to anyone about not eating meat.personal choice is what i believe in.

Perhaps not but the sanctimony of some individuals who have had a long involvement in the racing industry who now wish to foist their select horse utopia on the rest of us is just wrong.

[curious]

7 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Why the puritannical difference?  Both livestock and bloodstock are bred for profit regardless of how they earn it.  

Don't agree. One is bred for food consumption, the other for human entertainment.

9 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

 you seem to be having a late life crisis where you have this guilt about gambling and horses as entertainment.  What about those horse sports that don't involve gambling?  Do you want them banned as well?  I guess Polo is definitely off the list.

I don't want any of them banned. Where did you get that idea? 

[curious]

8 minutes ago, curious said:

I don't want any of them banned. Where did you get that idea? 

That's exactly what I'm trying to prevent happening.

[hesi]

Becks Nairn has questionable credibility and this has to be taken in context when viewing the many claims she makes about the racing industry.
If you read her FB page, it paints a picture of a woman who is resentful, who has derived a living for many years from horses and dogs.  A woman who has no scientific qualifications in veterinary science or pathology yet posts about the anatomical effects of racing on equine anatomy.  There are other claims, none of which are backed up by any science
She keeps on saying she is not trying to pull down racing, (Is this some attempt to mitigate her conscience) yet she has gone with a podcast with a known shock journo, trying to build his ratings, since losing his job at TV3.  
How else did she think she was going to be viewed, when the title of the podcast, says "The Interview to End Horse Racing" and Garner starts the interview with "Becks Nairn says the time has come to ban horse racing for good"
You can't have it both ways.
She appears to be continuing her crusade on her FB page
In saying all that yes, Racing has its welfare issues, but is this really the way to address them

[Freda]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Since when have you had more than 20 horses in work at once?

Not so many now, but many times years ago.  And colts too.

Edited 5 hours ago by Freda