BIG BET ALERT - $1000??

[Brodie]

We continually see on  Trackside, these Big Bet Alerts around $1K!

Is $1,000 really a big bet nowadays?

These $1k bets are probably all that the Bookies are prepared to accept, so they have very little appetite for punters who are wanting to take the Bookies on!

Personally do no consider $1k as being noteworthy to be advising the public that it is a big bet!
If they do consider it to be a big bet then why don’t they let all punters on for $1k bet and their turnover will be increased?

The TAB Bookies are stifling the turnover massively on all races without doubt?

Someone has a smallish wager and the Bookies then immediately slash’s the fixed odds once or twice so that they are too short for other punters to see it as worth betting on!

The odds are always in the Bookies favour but they just are far to conservative and this is what stifles the turnover and harness industry.

 

 

[PeterLambFan]

1 hour ago, Brodie said:

We continually see on  Trackside, these Big Bet Alerts around $1K!

Is $1,000 really a big bet nowadays?

These $1k bets are probably all that the Bookies are prepared to accept, so they have very little appetite for punters who are wanting to take the Bookies on!

Personally do no consider $1k as being noteworthy to be advising the public that it is a big bet!
If they do consider it to be a big bet then why don’t they let all punters on for $1k bet and their turnover will be increased?

The TAB Bookies are stifling the turnover massively on all races without doubt?

Someone has a smallish wager and the Bookies then immediately slash’s the fixed odds once or twice so that they are too short for other punters to see it as worth betting on!

The odds are always in the Bookies favour but they just are far to conservative and this is what stifles the turnover and harness industry.

 

 

Next they will be letting the out the gate boys get on for amount they like even though they finished the year in “profit land”. 

[mikeynz]

I think the sports maximum minimum  limit  or whatever you call it is $1000 dollars on head to head so really that is piss all too and if you could land one big bet on the Cricket would you trust this lot to accept another big bet on the opposite result during the game to guarantee a profit, Betfair was the place for that.

[Nowornever]

21 minutes ago, mikeynz said:

I think the sports maximum minimum  limit  or whatever you call it is $1000 dollars on head to head so really that is piss all too and if you could land one big bet on the Cricket would you trust this lot to accept another big bet on the opposite result during the game to guarantee a profit, Betfair was the place for that.

That is one of the red flags used by risk management to identify punters at risk to their operation. You might only get away doing it a couple of times before they hit you with the restrict hammer. Cash outs with a decent profit and not letting it ride another one of their red flags. Do it too many times and you are gone burger.

[Brodie]

2 hours ago, PeterLambFan said:

Next they will be letting the out the gate boys get on for amount they like even though they finished the year in “profit land”. 

They allow them on for what they want , no restrictions whatsoever and get gifted thousands of dollars!

They are winning on the greyhounds which are not  the hardest to win off due to the amounts they are allowed to wager!

It is total preferential treatment being given to OTG, we can all see that, whereas others get the opposite treatment!

Personally can not see how the CEO of HRNZ has not had this out with the TAB as it js costing harness income?

[Gammalite]

4 hours ago, Brodie said:

Is $1,000 really a big bet nowadays?

These $1k bets are probably all that the Bookies are prepared to accept, so they have very little appetite for punters who are wanting to take the Bookies on!

yes it is. $1,000 is a big bet. always has been.

I came to Australia from NZ in the 80's and the limits were about $1,000 then is all the bookies would take on one bet. you had to take a second bet (at probably lower odds ) if you wanted to put more on.

13 minutes ago, Brodie said:

They allow them on for what they want , no restrictions whatsoever and get gifted thousands of dollars!

they are SPECIAL KNOWN Punters Brodster.

Of course they can get SPECIAL treatment for Biggish bets. Just like Boys get Paid. common sense.

Casino's for example have 'High Rollers' that they let on for thousands on some of the games. MUGS like you and the general public only let on at what the usual table limits are . $500 or whatever it is per bet.

It's all quite Normal mate. you live under a rock and can't work it out ??

it's not  that hard  . Special People/clients/pundits always get PREFERENTIAL Treatment . In all walks of life. not just betting.  It's pretty normal .  Has happened since time again. 👍 

[Brodie]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

yes it is. $1,000 is a big bet. always has been.

I came to Australia from NZ in the 80's and the limits were about $1,000 then is all the bookies would take on one bet. you had to take a second bet (at probably lower odds ) if you wanted to put more on.

they are SPECIAL KNOWN Punters Brodster.

Of course they can get SPECIAL treatment for Biggish bets. Just like Boys get Paid. common sense.

Casino's for example have 'High Rollers' that they let on for thousands on some of the games. MUGS like you and the general public only let on at what the usual table limits are . $500 or whatever it is per bet.

It's all quite Normal mate. you live under a rock and can't work it out ??

it's not  that hard  . Special People/clients/pundits always get PREFERENTIAL Treatment . In all walks of life. not just betting.  It's pretty normal .  Has happened since time again. 👍 

Gamma, so $1k in the 1980’s is not the same as $1k in 2025,

The TAB will not let some punters back on at reduced odds at all, full stop!

You say that some get preferential treatment for big bets?

I want to put big bets on, but they wont allow that to occur, and yet OTG are allowed anything!!! 
Wouldn't think I have lived under any rock, just believe that treating people differently by the NZ TAB and rubbing it in our faces is rather very poor form!

It  needs to be exposed  the way they operate, as I dont know any other business that is allowed to operate in this manner in NZ!

 

Edited yesterday at 10:16 AM by Brodie

[mikeynz]

15 hours ago, Nowornever said:

That is one of the red flags used by risk management to identify punters at risk to their operation. You might only get away doing it a couple of times before they hit you with the restrict hammer. Cash outs with a decent profit and not letting it ride another one of their red flags. Do it too many times and you are gone burger.

So serious sports punters not welcome ?

Normally if your not welcome somewhere your told go somewhere else but where, the cartels have eliminated opposotion/alternatives.

[the galah]

i agree with brodie in that the tab  should accept larger bets from him.

I believe,the tab/entain/betcha should be able to adjust their fixed prices,to reflect the support each runner has recieved from larger bets and therefore balance their books and not fear anyone.

Of course they should have some limites,but not as small as they do.

Of course they should have a time limit on when a larger bet can be accepted up to pre race,e.g. 15 minutes,so they can adjust their markets accordingly and limit any risk.

i also believe they should reward people who put money through the tote pools by allowing them to get on more on ff.But they haven't,because they are dumb.I've explained many times how they actually cost themselves tens of thousands in profit from some punters because of there stupidity.

people must understand that a winning punter on the ff,can still be a punter who's overall turnover  on ff and tote,generates a profit for the tab.

if people can't understand that,then they should apply for a job at the tab ,as that lack of understanding will fit in nicely at the tab.

people who say the out the gate crew should not get preferential treatment,i don't agree with that.

betcha giving bonus bets and accepting of the larger bets by the out the gate makes perfect sense to me.

and the reason is simple. Its all about the big picture. Just as i have pointed out the tab are dumb as sometimes,the betcha out the gate model is smart and business savvy in my opinion.

dividend (or payouts)  from participation in each weeks out the gate show,are paid into peoples betcha accounts.

betcha would recognise that the out the gate promotion is all about promoting punter participation,getting punters money in their betcha acounts ,knowing the punters will then themselves spend any payouts they receive from their weekly out the gate payout,and will very likely lose that over  the following week or two.And its model that gets that punter particapiation at levels people can afford to lose,in other words a reasonable model for responsible gambling,making punting about what it is supposed to be for most,a bit of fun.

at the end of the day,entain/tab/betcha should all be about promting sustainable turnover so as to generate profits and give returns to the industry so the industry  can maintain the likes of stakes.

in my opinion,some of what betcha does is smart and some of what the tab does is stupid. Theres an inconsistency  in how they do things which highlights they can be clever,but they aren't as clever as they could be.

Edited 22 hours ago by the galah

[Nowornever]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

But they haven't,because they are dumb.I've explained many times how they actually cost themselves tens of thousands in profit from some punters because of there stupidity.

Yes I agree they are not the most clever bunch when it comes to increasing turnover and keeping valued customers. 

The trouble is they are in a vicious circle now. Turnover is down and they are running out of money because through stupid decisions they have turned away or restricted so many punters.  Now one of their main ways to fix this is to restrict more punters. 

They have done away with the rebates for elite punters and think giving punters more bonus bets to spend instead is a great idea. What about those punters who have to bet on tote because you have restricted the piss out of them. How do they spend their bonus bets if they cant bet fixed odds?

 

[Nowornever]

2 hours ago, mikeynz said:

So serious sports punters not welcome ?

Normally if your not welcome somewhere your told go somewhere else but where, the cartels have eliminated opposotion/alternatives.

I know two guys who have sold up and who are moving to Aussie early next. Removal of rebates the final straw for one of them. Big punter he is

[Chief Stipe]

14 minutes ago, Nowornever said:

I know two guys who have sold up and who are moving to Aussie early next. Removal of rebates the final straw for one of them. Big punter he is

Are rebates the only way he makes a profit?

[Nowornever]

26 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Are rebates the only way he makes a profit?

 Not sure? Even if he was slightly down with his betting I suppose the rebates would have been a big help to him. 

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Are rebates the only way he makes a profit?

obviously not,but if you do the maths ,its easy to understand how entain is run by people who are just dumb as.

i cant remember the exact rebate rates,  as i never got any,but from memory if you were getting a 3 % rebate per $1000 spend on tote betting and you spent $100,000 a month,then your getting $3000 a month in rebates.

and if that punter was say breaking even on his or her punting,they would be getting a $3000 a month profit due to the rebates.

now obviously,the rebate rates varied depending on the type of bet.E.g. you got higher rebates for the bets in exoctic pools like trifectas first 4's,quaddies than say the win/place bets.

and it depended on your overall spend,hence the level you fell into.

but the example i've used of someone getting a $3000 rebate each month is the type of thing that was happening.

the point is,the tab is receiving % take out on each $ spent through the tote,about $20,000 in the example i used and they are paying the customer $3000 back in rebates.

So in the example i've used the tab is getting $17,000 profit from that punter every month  in take out %,

so what happens when the tab take away the rebates they are paying the punter. That punter now is spending their $100,000 a month for no profit. So whats the point in spending so much time doing that,if theres nothing in it for them. 

so what that punter do,well thats easy,they will reduce their betting significantly or just stop totally. So the tab in effect,will be cutting their nose off to spite their face by around $17,000 a month in profits they will no longer get,in the exampkle i have used.

how does that make any sense.

i knew a bloke who at one point was getting rebates of up to $10,000 some months.,over $100,00 a year in rebates. Now why they would want to spend so much time betting i don't know,but they did and it was their choice.You can work out how much they had to spend to get that.

Then you factor in that these same people who they are taking the rebates off,they also have stopped linking accounts. In other words ,until recenetly ,some of the elite punters had dual accounts they operated and the combined spend was what the rebate payout was based on. The dual accounts were say if they had a syndicate and bet fior that syndicate.So they have hit that big punter with a double whammy in the reduction of rebates already.then add in the  tab ff bookmakers already restricting or putting algorythms on punters accounts to further linit their profit.So really its all been a triple whammy to some punters in just the last few years.

so whats the upshot,the punter who in my example may be spending 1.2m a year in turnover,generating the $17000 x 12 profit($204,000p.a.) for the tab in $ tote take outs,well they will have to stop betting because without the rebates they can't afford to as they will be losing too much money.

now as i say,i know what the result will be. Turnover from those people will completely dry up.so the tab will be losing tens of millions in lost turnover and  several million in profit from the % take out from betting on the tote that they got.

So how does make sense. Only if you worked at entain could you think that makes any sense. 

Entain obviously are full of really dumb as people,. They have to be to shoot themselves in the foot so bad.

Edited 18 hours ago by the galah

[Brodie]

I am not prepared to call them dumb as at this stage!

would prefer to say that they really have not got a successful business plan in action!

They are just trying to get through the 5 year guaranteed money on racing and then they will pull out the support for racing, there is no doubt about that, despite what they are going to say.

Why do you think that Dean Shannon got given the DCM?

Not sure where the Fixed Odds are being set by at the moment, is it NZ or Australia?

The Bookies clearly have been told to follow the policy of only allowing losing punters to offload significant amounts.

Shutdown or don’t make it worthwhile for the better punters to wager on racing with us!

Entain don’t care much for racing it is not why they bought into the NZ TAB and this shows with so many of the decisions they have made.

Why did they sack two of the other senior Entain executives as well as Dean Shannon hmmmm?

HRNZ keeping their heads in the sand and keeping quiet and worrying more about their own positions.

Anyone is more than welcome to disagree with Brodie but doubt anyone can ?

 

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Brodie

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Nowornever said:

 Not sure? Even if he was slightly down with his betting I suppose the rebates would have been a big help to him. 

 

54 minutes ago, the galah said:

obviously not,but if you do the maths ,its easy to understand how entain is run by people who are just dumb as.

So you disagee?

[Chief Stipe]

55 minutes ago, the galah said:

so whats the upshot,the punter who in my example may be spending 1.2m a year in turnover,generating the $17000 x 12 profit($204,000p.a.) for the tab in $ tote take outs,well they will have to stop betting because without the rebates they can't afford to as they will be losing too much money.

The basis of your analysis is that the punter loses.  Correct?

[the galah]

4 hours ago, Brodie said:

I am not prepared to call them dumb as at this stage!

would prefer to say that they really have not got a successful business plan in action!

 

haven't you just said  they are making dumb decisions,without actually using the word dumb.

[Brodie]

Just now, the galah said:

haven't you just said  they are making dumb decisions,without actually using the word dumb.

You are right,  they continue to make very poor decisions and are not in the best interests of racing in NZ!

As I mentioned many times Entain is not interested too much in racing but that doesnt give HRNZ any excuse for the poor business decisions that have been made!

Is there anyone that actually has confidence in HRNZ in their decision making and if so why? 
We can take it that  no one has,  if we get no support for them!

[the galah]

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

The basis of your analysis is that the punter loses.  Correct?

No. The example i used was the punter was breaking even with their betting and the rebates were the profit they used to justify the time they spent betting.

I'll give you an example that related to myself that i have used previously to illustrate the point i make.. When covid hit and nz harness was temporarily suspended and the job i was doing was not paying as well due to covid,,i thought well i need to generate some more income  from betting so i thought why not expand into doing it on queensland harness racing,who at the time were still racing through covid.

so i spent 3 months analysing the queensland form every harness race run in queensland.then started betting. The plan was to generate a profit in the betting or at the very least break even and get rebates.So i decided to do that for myself and had 2 accounts and contacted the tab and said,how much do i have to spend to get rebates. They said over  $90,000 in 12 months. I said so if i do that in a couple of mionths you  will give me rebates. They said yes. So i did. it took me 3 months to reach the $90,000 level on each account,about $1000 a day spent on queensalnd harness on 2 different accounts($2000 a day total).

well the profit i had hoped for from the betting was not as good as i hoped,it was only around 2%profit, but i thought once i get the otherr 2%from the rebates it would make it worthwhile. 

so what happened. I rung up the tab and said to them,when are you going to put me on the elite punter rebate thing like you promised and they said maybe next time when they look at who new they invite into the elite punters thing. Well when i still got nothing the following month and was still spending my $1000 a day on both accounts($2000) on queensland harness racing i rung them up again. There response was  words to the effect,go away,we aren't interested in you as an elite customer even though you have reached the spend threshold to qualify.

also the % rebate for betting in australia i had been told by the nz tab would not have been as high as betting on nz racing.

But anyway i said to them,,if i were to qualify for the rebates it would make it worthwhile for me to spend the time i do on betting on queensland,but if i don't it won't.

i said that to them,wouldn't it make sense for you to give me the rebates you promised of about $400 on each account  per omth and you keep receiving the few thousand  amonth in take ou %.The take out % would have been about $12,000 per moth for them,but i don't know for sure how the aussie and nz tab broke down who got what of that.

Anyways they rung me back and said,words to the effect we don't care .

so what did i do,of course i stopped betting. 

so for the sake of paying me about $800 a month like they promised,they lost out $12,000 in profit.

the moral of my story is people who bet,especially who bet larger amounts than i used to,factor in the rebates into how much they spend in total and very obviously how much it effects their profit/ loss figure.

thats why i call people who work at the tab and make the ddecisions like they are on rebates dumb.

they seem to want to treat every customer the same,where as in reality every customer is unique and has their own betting habits. A clever business would factor that in and operate in a way that generates the most profit for that business,a dumb business would do what entain and the tab before them have been doing.

like i have also said of others and just how much the recent dcsions will impact turnover from the punters i know.

the only logical explanation for the sheer stupidity of it all is maybe there is different departments/divisions(whatever the word may be) within the tab where you get people getting bonuses based on their department. And those in one department only care about the bottom line for their department because thats what effects their bonuses and couldn't care less about the overall bottom line of the business.

[mikeynz]

52 minutes ago, Brodie said:

You are right,  they continue to make very poor decisions and are not in the best interests of racing in NZ!

As I mentioned many times Entain is not interested too much in racing but that doesnt give HRNZ any excuse for the poor business decisions that have been made!

Is there anyone that actually has confidence in HRNZ in their decision making and if so why? 
We can take it that  no one has,  if we get no support for them!

Some good money up for grabs this week at Invercargill, poor fields for what is probably their  big day of the year, the cup field ain't too bad though but then heaps of money at Ashburton for some average run of the mill horses, nice for those who are cashing in though while its there, but is having the Ashburton and Invercargill programmes within 2 days of each other smart, seems Invers has been affected considerably, is this perhaps another example of poor decisions by HRNZ ?

 

[Nowornever]

9 hours ago, mikeynz said:

Some good money up for grabs this week at Invercargill, poor fields for what is probably their  big day of the year, the cup field ain't too bad though but then heaps of money at Ashburton for some average run of the mill horses, nice for those who are cashing in though while its there, but is having the Ashburton and Invercargill programmes within 2 days of each other smart, seems Invers has been affected considerably, is this perhaps another example of poor decisions by HRNZ ?

 

The trouble with the Ashburton fields when you have aged based racing and all ratings allowed per division, you get some very uneven fields. There will be  a few horses paying sub 1.50 making those races not much of a betting proposition. 

Open class Little Spike who has been giving Merlin a run for his money vs a field of one and two win horses. He is going to be 1.22 in that field. Greased Lightning another who will be unbackable in his race.

The only saving grace will be the draws over a mile for some of the other races where the favourites are wider out on the back line, but still some uneven looking races.