curious Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Finished reading it. Obviously you have only read selective bits that support your rubbish posts. Whatever it's failings, it is quite clear on the simple procedure for ensuring all horses are loaded before the start is effected and that failing to ensure that is not a criterion for a false start. This was a dual fuck up. No excuses. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 14 minutes ago, curious said: Whatever it's failings, it is quite clear on the simple procedure for ensuring all horses are loaded before the start is effected and that failing to ensure that is not a criterion for a false start. This was a dual fuck up. No excuses. Yes and the Erebus disaster was pilot error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All The Aces Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Well back from my Christmas sojourn all rested, fed and watered., so Happy New Year all. Looks like there have been some fun and games whilst I have been away, not least the start debacle at Ellerslie on New Years Day. Correct procedures obviously were not followed and a horse subsequently left behind the gates when the starter's button was pushed. Cock up 1. Then the starter apparently pressed the "False Start" button. Cock up 2. It should never have been pushed. Word down here is that Gripper is resigning. 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 26 minutes ago, All The Aces said: Well back from my Christmas sojourn all rested, fed and watered., so Happy New Year all. Looks like there have been some fun and games whilst I have been away, not least the start debacle at Ellerslie on New Years Day. Correct procedures obviously were not followed and a horse subsequently left behind the gates when the starter's button was pushed. Cock up 1. Then the starter apparently pressed the "False Start" button. Cock up 2. It should never have been pushed. Word down here is that Gripper is resigning. Ūp to speed quickly ATA. That's it in a nutshell. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 15 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Yes and the Erebus disaster was pilot error. do you realise your non sequiturs actually weaken your already spurious...argument? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 7, 2020 Author Share Posted January 7, 2020 Loving the Latin knowledge Holy.... whats the Latin antonym for 'veni vidi vici"? Although the Starting Crew at least 'Came' to the show I guess? ..but prematurely...who hasn't had that problem when you're as excited as hell starting the Queen's City Cup though? They 'saw' the field dispatched sans P... ...and the only thing they 'conquered' was giving everyone a sore head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 On 7/01/2020 at 9:07 AM, holy ravioli said: do you realise your non sequiturs actually weaken your already spurious...argument? Read the manual and you will see the whole process is flawed. That has been my argument. The last point I was making is that often the last error is a culmination of factors in a flawed system. I now realise that this is beyond your comprehension. Your use of the word spurious in this context only serves to highlight that. I've never argued that the Starter didn't make a mistake when pushed the button when he did. However I have put forward a rationale why that mistake was made. Many are making assumptions on what actually happened behind the gates. My contention is that the mistake is the outcome of a flawed and under resources process. With regard to resources did you know that a race meeting can start with only 8 barrier attendants working? Isn't that problematic in itself when more and more horses are requiring individual care? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 7, 2020 Author Share Posted January 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Read the manual and you will see the whole process is flawed. That has been my argument. The last point I was making is that often the last error is a culmination of factors in a flawed system. I now realise that this is beyond your comprehension. Your use of the word spurious in this context only serves to highlight that. I've never argued that the Starter didn't make a mistake when pushed the button when he did. However I have put forward a rationale why that mistake was made. Many are making assumptions on what actually happened behind the gates. My contention is that the mistake is the outcome of a flawed and under resources process. With regard to resources did you know that a race meeting can start with only 8 barrier attendants working? Isn't that problematic in itself when more and more horses are requiring individual care? Have you rung up your mates at the RIU again? NEVER believe a WORD they say...believe me You can't bring yourself to admit if he'd followed the POLICY... ...by waiting for his Assistant to say "clear" It wouldn't have happened... But they NEVER folowed the Manual...as indeed they didn't when the very same thing occurred in April... And what's the point in having more than 8 on a weak day...with a max. 10 starters through a day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 6 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: With regard to resources did you know that a race meeting can start with only 8 barrier attendants working? Isn't that problematic in itself when more and more horses are requiring individual care? And that is another facet of this issue; when clubs are penny-pinching on payrates and numbers of staff, it's not that easy to recruit more experienced horsemen [ who have better things to do with their time ] especially when they are considered ' unskilled workers'...ffs.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, Thomass said: And what's the point in having more than 8 on a weak day...with a max. 10 starters through a day? What is the optimal ratio? I would say that 8 isn't enough in the scenario you describe. In the overall scheme of things the additional cost is minimal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 6 minutes ago, Freda said: And that is another facet of this issue; when clubs are penny-pinching on payrates and numbers of staff, it's not that easy to recruit more experienced horsemen [ who have better things to do with their time ] especially when they are considered ' unskilled workers'...ffs.. Agree. Freda do you think the amount of individual attention horses are now requiring behind the gates has got out of hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Maybe there needs to be a course for starters...where they can learn the art of pushing a button when all runners are loaded. DISC....Diploma In Starting Competence. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: Agree. Freda do you think the amount of individual attention horses are now requiring behind the gates has got out of hand? Not necessarily - although some of the more recalcitrant ones are given too much leeway [ IMO ] on a raceday, they should be sent back to the trials until they get the idea - or find a new job. But compared with overseas, the number of attendants is well below what is needed I think. The U.S model has horses 'ponied' to the start and handed to attendants, you hardly ever see a problem [ well I haven't ], it seems to be very workable and keeps horses calm and not charging down to the gates out of control as well. Elsewhere, most every horse has an attendant, and in many areas, are kept close up behind the gates with a tape, not buggering around 200 yards or more away. Wouldn't keep in a determined escapee, but, again, I've never noticed a problem - unlike here. Edited January 7, 2020 by Freda 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Read the manual and you will see the whole process is flawed. That has been my argument. The last point I was making is that often the last error is a culmination of factors in a flawed system. I now realise that this is beyond your comprehension. Your use of the word spurious in this context only serves to highlight that. I've never argued that the Starter didn't make a mistake when pushed the button when he did. However I have put forward a rationale why that mistake was made. Many are making assumptions on what actually happened behind the gates. My contention is that the mistake is the outcome of a flawed and under resources process. With regard to resources did you know that a race meeting can start with only 8 barrier attendants working? Isn't that problematic in itself when more and more horses are requiring individual care? you are trying to conflate different issues ,while at the same time questioning MY comprehension....hilarious!?♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 26 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: you are trying to conflate different issues ,while at the same time questioning MY comprehension....hilarious!?♂️ I'm not. What I am doing is providing a rational and logical argument that the manual and the process it describes is inadequate. That approach isn't the meaning of spurious. Now let's try and extend your focus away from that red button if we can. Do you think that there is a lack of resources behind the gates prior to the red button being pushed? (Assuming the button is red of course. It might be green for go.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All The Aces Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: I'm not. What I am doing is providing a rational and logical argument that the manual and the process it describes is inadequate. That approach isn't the meaning of spurious. Now let's try and extend your focus away from that red button if we can. Do you think that there is a lack of resources behind the gates prior to the red button being pushed? (Assuming the button is red of course. It might be green for go.) This is a different matter altogether and totally irrelevant to what happened. If the correct procedures had been followed the starter would not have released the gates without clearance being given by the assistant starter that all horses were loaded. Instead he made an assumption they were all in and dispatched the field off his own volition with no check in place. Sloppy work with resulting mayhem. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: I'm not. What I am doing is providing a rational and logical argument that the manual and the process it describes is inadequate. That approach isn't the meaning of spurious. Now let's try and extend your focus away from that red button if we can. Do you think that there is a lack of resources behind the gates prior to the red button being pushed? (Assuming the button is red of course. It might be green for go.) That is a completely different issue and one I do not know enough about to make an objective assessment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 8, 2020 Author Share Posted January 8, 2020 17 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: I'm not. What I am doing is providing a rational and logical argument that the manual and the process it describes is inadequate. That approach isn't the meaning of spurious. Now let's try and extend your focus away from that red button if we can. Do you think that there is a lack of resources behind the gates prior to the red button being pushed? (Assuming the button is red of course. It might be green for go.) Have you come to the "inadequate" part where it says... ..."the Starter MUST check with the Assistant FIRST before releasing the field" Or the other bit where it talks about 'False Start' procedures... ...which he also broke... And your obvious hero in this Mick I'm a back patting Industry hugger Guerin who said... ..."these minor mistakes" ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 9, 2020 Author Share Posted January 9, 2020 And don't anybody ever forget... The reason the HOPELESS Northern Racing Services gave for leaving off the runner up's Barrier Blanket in last year's Derby....where IN A TWINKLING was slow out...first time in 6 starts since having the BB ...was the Club left the Field too long in the Birdcage.... ...but not a mention of Harrison ignoring the Manual's requirement that gear be listed on the Race Starters list... WHICH THEY DIDNT...just using the old memory eh? So if ANYONE at the HOPELESS Northern Race Day Services outfit blames the Club in any way over this... Its HOGWASH...ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 48 minutes ago, Thomass said: ...but not a mention of Harrison ignoring the Manual's requirement that gear be listed on the Race Starters list... The Starter isn't responsible for the "Starters Card" - all he has to do is pick it up at the beginning of the day. Like a lot of things in the "Manual" it is ambiguous who is actually responsible for collating that information. I would suggest it is the Stewards/RIU who seem to have the right to approve or not approve behind the gates gear. Given that they are then maybe it is one of them who should be responsible for giving the All Clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: The Starter isn't responsible for the "Starters Card" - all he has to do is pick it up at the beginning of the day. Like a lot of things in the "Manual" it is ambiguous who is actually responsible for collating that information. I would suggest it is the Stewards/RIU who seem to have the right to approve or not approve behind the gates gear. Given that they are then maybe it is one of them who should be responsible for giving the All I had an issue a couple of years ago with Saint Kitt at Dunedin, he'd been last in/man up for his entire career up north ( before I got him ) and such info was passed on by me to the Riccarton lot. I sent him to Dunedin, the horse was ridden by CWJ ( regular rider) and one local barrier staff member was down to help the southern crew. Horse went in in his turn, misbehaved badly and stripped a hindleg. Scratched. Training, transport and time costs all for nothing. Poor old Russell ( starter ) had nothing on his sheet . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, Freda said: Poor old Russell ( starter ) had nothing on his sheet . Precisely. Can't blame the Starter for something that is beyond his/her control. The Manual as it stands currently is flawed. If the Manual spent as much time on the procedures as it does on who can and can't have a bet then it would be a damn sight better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: The Starter isn't responsible for the "Starters Card" - all he has to do is pick it up at the beginning of the day. Like a lot of things in the "Manual" it is ambiguous who is actually responsible for collating that information. I would suggest it is the Stewards/RIU who seem to have the right to approve or not approve behind the gates gear. Given that they are then maybe it is one of them who should be responsible for giving the All Clear. Why was the Starter officially reprimanded then? And you still refuse to acknowledge how easy it would have been to follow the Manual by simply looking at his Assistant and waiting to hear him say CLEAR Wtf is so hard about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, Thomass said: Why was the Starter officially reprimanded then? Good question. Ask the RIU who is responsible for the Starters Card. Freda just gave us another example of where the information on it was lacking. 7 minutes ago, Thomass said: And you still refuse to acknowledge how easy it would have been to follow the Manual by simply looking at his Assistant and waiting to hear him say CLEAR Wtf is so hard about that? I've done no such thing. I know it is beyond your comprehension because of the logical rationale behind what I wrote however at no point have I disagreed that the button shouldn't have been pushed. HOWEVER I believe that the process as described is FLAWED and is open to error. For a start a visual signal would be far better than a voice signal in an environment which is noisy and extremely busy. Don't the Japs use flags? For example: "The Assistant Starter is holding up the Yellow Flag which indicates that all starters are in the gates. The Starter has now raised the Green Flag which indicates he has Power and they are about to start"... What is so hard for you to comprehend that the Manual is FLAWED!!!! I doubt you have even read it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) The Starter had clearly been having hearing issues... ..as evidenced with the example I gave previously when ex Jock now Stipe Robinson clearly heard the Jock saying " ...NO I'm not ready" Wherupon Harrison released them and the Jock promptly fell off...luckily not injured EVERY Starter should be Auditored and Hearing and Eye exams carried out... New tech is easily available with hands free Comms... ...but Gripper had become used to doing it his way and against the Manual ...if he'd have even bothered to look for Scooter...without being able to hear... ..he would have seen him just releasing the Red Hooded Mare standing out like a flashing light... But he chose the lying root again and told Guerin the hood was off... ...which Guerin swollowed whole BTW "Japs" is extremely racist Edited January 10, 2020 by Thomass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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