Rangatira Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 10 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: As for the selection of 80 how does that work if the book is over priced? it remains unchanged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, Rangatira said: it remains unchanged Doesn't that open up the potential for a rort? You haven't answered my question about REAL bookies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 Just now, Chief Stipe said: Doesn't that open up the potential for a rort? You haven't answered my question about REAL bookies. google would be your friend re REAL bookies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Doesn't that open up the potential for a rort? unsure do you have some examples of this potential rort ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, Rangatira said: unsure do you have some examples of this potential rort ? The 80 (%?) is based on a 20% deduction based on the field being set at 100%. The NZ TAB bookies are notorious for setting a field way higher than that. SO although Brodie might be complaining about not knowing before he collects what the deduction is - he may have a complaint about how much is taken out. Seems to favour the bookie and not the punter. What happens when there are TWO late scratchings? -40%? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: What happens when there are TWO late scratchings? -40%? my understanding is that each late scratching is calculated individually and then added together naturally the timing of your final field bet affects what outcome applies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 Help me out here Rangitara. If the FF was set at 130% on closing. There is a late scratching. The calculation is based on 80%. Does the bookie get a windfall profit from the late scratching? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globederby12 Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Help me out here Rangitara. If the FF was set at 130% on closing. There is a late scratching. The calculation is based on 80%. Does the bookie get a windfall profit from the late scratching? Correct. 80% of an overpriced market on late scratchngs give them a license to print money. There should be a graduated scale based on the market value not a one size fits all. Fecking robbers . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 7 minutes ago, globederby12 said: Correct. 80% of an overpriced market on late scratchngs give them a license to print money. There should be a graduated scale based on the market value not a one size fits all. Fecking robbers . So basically the NZ bookie has a double indemnity on the risk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted May 27, 2019 Author Share Posted May 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Harewood said: The % cannot be shown untill after the race closes and the weight of money on each horse is known. That must be obvious surely. In Aus you are told the % of your reduction so I would think it would be available in NZ . But as the % is not known until after the race does it really matter. You know you are going to get less so just be pissed off there was a late s go collect and find the next winner How do the odds drop unbeknown to you. Everyone knows if there is a late s the odds will drop some degree If its an early scratching the tab will reset their odds so just put more on at the new odds if you're worried about getting less. If its a very late late s then too bad Thats just the way it is according to the regulations Harewood, think you are wrong. Fixed odds bets, they should be able to calculate the deduction at the time of the scratching! The Thing is that if you have an investment at 6.0 pm on the Thursday night for a Friday night meeting you get a certain fixed return on your ticket. After that time if anything is scratched apart from the emergencies the dividend gets reduced. If anything apart from the emergencies are scratched even before the late scratching time occurs the collect is normally reduced!!!! Half the time I wouldn’t be aware that there has been a scratching that has affected the return as zi am not sitting there looking at the fields and odds sorry. All I am asking is that they should be disclosing the % being deducted after fixed odds betting being opened?? Is this not possible? It may not be of any concern to the $2 e,w. Punters but to punters who invest at larger levels, it should be displayed. To turn up and not receive what is shown on your ticket, and just get given a far reduced amount, is not reasonable in this day and age. The TAB workers just pay out what the machine says and have no idea what the deduction is unless they look up on records, which is time consuming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harewood Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 8 hours ago, Brodie said: Is this not possible? No its not for the earlier reasons given The % is tagged to money on each horse to the overall amount bet AT CLOSING TIME If a horse is outsider right up to before the race and suddenly becomes fav and is late scratched then the % of loss would also change to a much higher amount. Also how do you work out a % of a horse scratched earlier(aday or whatever ) when you dont know the number you are dividing into untill closing time. Just a case of logical mathmatics 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flagship uberalles Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 17 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: So basically the NZ bookie has a double indemnity on the risk! It seems standard for all bookies on FF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted May 27, 2019 Author Share Posted May 27, 2019 9 hours ago, Harewood said: No its not for the earlier reasons given The % is tagged to money on each horse to the overall amount bet AT CLOSING TIME If a horse is outsider right up to before the race and suddenly becomes fav and is late scratched then the % of loss would also change to a much higher amount. Also how do you work out a % of a horse scratched earlier(aday or whatever ) when you dont know the number you are dividing into untill closing time. Just a case of logical mathmatics Harewood, I believe you are incorrect. With Fixed Odds, the deduction will be the % deduction as to what the scratched horse was paying when it was scratched and nothing at all to do with closing prices. Anyway, it should be declared prior to the race by the commentator and also be noted on the TAB results! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Brodie said: Anyway, it should be declared prior to the race by the commentator and also be noted on the TAB results! it should be on the website as the late scratching is announced the previous excuse that the old website can't do that surely doesn't wash anymore Edited May 28, 2019 by Rangatira 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterthepunter Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 34 minutes ago, Rangatira said: it should be on the website as the late scratching is announced the previous excuse that the old website can't do that surely doesn't wash anymore rangatira this is first time you have posted not taking the piss out of Brodie 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) 32 minutes ago, hunterthepunter said: rangatira this is first time you have posted not taking the piss out of Brodie hopefully a heavy shiny yellow medal is on its way ps: for once his point is semi valid Edited May 28, 2019 by Rangatira 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted May 28, 2019 Author Share Posted May 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Rangatira said: hopefully a heavy shiny yellow medal is on its way ps: for once his point is semi valid Ranga, you well know that Brodie is always on the money! I realise that it will be very hard for you to admit that, but thinking it to yourself is ok! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Brodie said: I realise that it will be very hard for you to admit that, but thinking it to yourself is ok! very much our secret 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flagship uberalles Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 1 hour ago, hunterthepunter said: rangatira this is first time you have posted not taking the piss out of Brodie A picture of the brodster and ranga in 20 years from now at the same rest home. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted May 28, 2019 Author Share Posted May 28, 2019 I gave up cross dressing years ago!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harewood Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 11 hours ago, Brodie said: With Fixed Odds, the deduction will be the % deduction as to what the scratched horse was paying when it was scratched and nothing at all to do with closing prices. My apologies Brodie After looking up the rules you are correct . The % is known at the time of scratching and can be worked out by the following rule. Yes maybe the % should be put up beside the scratched horse however it gets a bit more complicated when their are other late scratchings Perhaps this is why . FINAL FIELD DEDUCTION FORMULA The nearest whole number percentage, using Swiss Rounding, obtained by dividing 80 by the product of the number of RBPs multiplied by the Odds for the Race Entrant at the time it was Scratched from a Race, provided the Odds are less than or equal to Maximum Deduction Odds = 80/(RBPs x Odds) (Rounded to nearest whole number). Maximum Deduction Odds shall be $35.00 Example: Where a Race Entrant paying $5.00 to Win and $1.33 for a place (3 RBPs)is Scratched, the Return on successful Final Field Win Bets placed prior to that Scratching will be subject to a deduction of 16% (80/(1x5)). Successful Final Field Place Bets will be subject to a deduction of 20% (80/(3x1.33)). In the event that there are two or more Scratchings, Final Field Deductions on bets placed before those Scratchings shall be calculated by applying all Final Field Deductions. Bets placed after any Scratching shall be calculated by applying the Final Field Deduction for subsequent Scratchings only. We all learn so hope this helps next time so the shock is not so great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted May 28, 2019 Author Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) Harewood, no apologies needed! Still think that the TAB should be quite easily be able to state what % reductions are taken off! Have very occasionally heard the commentators state what the % deduction is when a horse is late scratched oncourse. Hopefully someone from the TAB picks up on their shortcomings, and have the intuition to be able to provide this to the punters. Don’t believe it is fair for the punter to turn up to collect what is on their fixed odds ticket, and then given a much reduced figure which has happened to me many times! If I invested the day before a racemeeting , I am not aware that a horse has been taken out of the field, whether it being a late scratching or a scratching after my investment! How on earth are we to check that the deduction % is correct if it is not publicised anywhere???? Edited May 28, 2019 by Brodie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent54 Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 On 5/26/2019 at 1:02 PM, Brodie said: When a horse is a late scratching, why doesn’t the TAB show what the % deduction is for fixed odds Bettors? They must know what the deduction is when the horse is taken out, so why isn’t it shown somewhere? I have often gone to collect and receive a helluva lot less than what I was expecting, due to a late scratching! Can not be that hard can it? Yes it is harder than you think. Here is why. Races at Addington Friday night. You back a horse Thursday evening paying $10. Straight after you backing it the bookies react and move it into $9. Friday morning a horse is scratched paying $8. (Equates to a 10% deduction as per rules). The bookies move the horse you have backed into $8 now. I back the same horse as you at Friday lunchtime at 8s. The $2 favourite for race injures himself on way to races and is late scratched. (Equates to a 40% deduction). The horse we both backed wins. Your $100 FFW bet returns $1000 according to your ticket but after the deductions of 50% (10% + 40%) you receive $500. My $100 FFW bet was supposed to return $800. But I cop a 40% deduction so only get $480. Hence you can see how confusion would reign trying to notify every punter of every deduction in every race. Your deduction was different to mine yet we both backed the same horse! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted May 28, 2019 Author Share Posted May 28, 2019 6 hours ago, Agent54 said: Yes it is harder than you think. Here is why. Races at Addington Friday night. You back a horse Thursday evening paying $10. Straight after you backing it the bookies react and move it into $9. Friday morning a horse is scratched paying $8. (Equates to a 10% deduction as per rules). The bookies move the horse you have backed into $8 now. I back the same horse as you at Friday lunchtime at 8s. The $2 favourite for race injures himself on way to races and is late scratched. (Equates to a 40% deduction). The horse we both backed wins. Your $100 FFW bet returns $1000 according to your ticket but after the deductions of 50% (10% + 40%) you receive $500. My $100 FFW bet was supposed to return $800. But I cop a 40% deduction so only get $480. Hence you can see how confusion would reign trying to notify every punter of every deduction in every race. Your deduction was different to mine yet we both backed the same horse! Agent54, Thanks for your response. I appreciate under those circumstances, there will be variances! However, there is never any % deduction published even when there is a late deduction when a late scratching after the race start time! The TAB knows what the scratched horse was paying and therefore % should be notified alongside the late scratched horse. How is the punter to know what the scratched horse was paying at the time of scratching? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent54 Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Brodie said: Agent54, Thanks for your response. I appreciate under those circumstances, there will be variances! However, there is never any % deduction published even when there is a late deduction when a late scratching after the race start time! The TAB knows what the scratched horse was paying and therefore % should be notified alongside the late scratched horse. How is the punter to know what the scratched horse was paying at the time of scratching? Are you suggesting the TAB aren't being honest in applying the deduction formula? Otherwise, surely you can work it out for yourself. Using my bet above, (Expected collect minus actual collect) =800-480 equals 320. Then you divide 320 (the difference) by 800 (the expected collect) which equals 40, so you know the price must have been 80 (as per the formula) divided by 40 = $2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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