jess Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) The amateur rider race today. The winning rider - said by the Trackside man to have "carried" his mount over the line (thrashed it over the line more like it...). Then went on to say what good riders coming through etc .. Good rider he well might be. But while our governing bodies allow horses whipped excessively to hold on to their wins- and do little or nothing to penalise this sort of riding (actually - we are rewarding it, in effect ...) - we can expect more of the same; more riders who thrash their horses & more people in the community who form the opinion racing is cruel. And when you have a fan (who breeds & rears & races horses) starting to believe they have a point - I think we have a problem, Houston. J. Edited June 3, 2019 by jess 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimbu Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 I support the call for change that seems to be emerging. The whip is just a tool, one that racing can do without, IMO. Removing whip use won't harm racing, nor will it damage the image of it held by many not directly involved in the industry. A good jockey will get the best out of their mount using all the skills they possess - hands, heels, voice, kidding to the horse etc.. Some of our lesser skilled & less experienced jockeys may even ride in a more balanced fashion without the whip. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 I counted 30...and hard ones at that..25 for the Irishman Nick Downs when 2nd in the Steeples as well...fined midweek for a whip violation... ..and what's more the Woman amatuer, abiding by the rules, can't protest! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 I find it somewhat ironic that Irishman Downs and expat Pom Higgins seem very adept at the bash....wouldn't get away with it at home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Centaur Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 33 minutes ago, Freda said: I find it somewhat ironic that Irishman Downs and expat Pom Higgins seem very adept at the bash....wouldn't get away with it at home I don't know about that. The UK whip style looks awful plus seems much more forceful. Anyway as an aside if you were a horse would you prefer the whip or a grumpy jockey yanking your mouth. Never hear that mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jess Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, The Centaur said: I don't know about that. The UK whip style looks awful plus seems much more forceful. Anyway as an aside if you were a horse would you prefer the whip or a grumpy jockey yanking your mouth. Never hear that mentioned. I hear ya on that Centaur - I hate that too - yanking and sawing away on horses' mouths sometimes ... I read about the other rider with interest - I wasn't picking on the amateur - it just happened to be about the only race I watched today. And it gave me no pleasure or desire to watch more if I'm honest ... Sorry to repeat what I've said in other threads - but until they start taking races off these riders - they will keep bashing the horses. Stipes - you can do this - you need to man up (they're mostly male) & lead this! It's never too late to say you've not been adjudicating as well as you could have - and change has come. Send a message to all yr riders telling them that they will be looking at forfeiting their place & getting DQ for behavior of this kind - a fair warning if you will. Then start responding as you should. You will have it 90% cleaned up in a week. J Edited June 3, 2019 by jess 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jess Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 And the Trackside people seemingly endorsing/admiring (going by their comments on TV) this style of riding is not helpful either IMO ... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryb Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, jess said: we can expect more of the same; more riders who thrash their horses & more people in the community who form the opinion racing is cruel. I doubt it Jess somehow, hardly any racing people are watching and certainly NO one in the community is. Doesnt feature on the nightly News & certainly gets scant mention in the papers, no one even has a clue racing is going on in NZ, except in late Dec and early Jan. Edited June 3, 2019 by barryb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryb Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) L Myers (MIZZENA) - Admitted a charge in that he used his whip excessively prior to the 100 metres being fined $400 by the Judicial Committee. N Downs - Admitted a charge in that he used the whip excessively on STORMING THE TOWER prior to the 100 metres being fined the sum of $600 by the Judicial Committee. E Farr - Admitted a charge in that she used the whip excessively on THE ARABIAN DUKE prior to the 100 metres being fined the sum of $300 by the Judicial Committee. Edited June 3, 2019 by barryb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jess Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 I don't entirely agree Barry. If the lobbyists just picked a few races out from today alone & spliced the footage together - it would prove their point nicely, I believe. And thanks for posting the excerpts from the Steward Report - makes my point nicely. It's a weak response and no less than 3 jockeys censured for it. This approach is hardly stamping out the behavior is it? More likely it's tacitly condoning it ... and without looking at all the races - I wouldn't be surprised if there were others who exceeded their "allowance" too but who skated under the radar, with the stipes just picking out the worst of the worst ... Start taking races off them! Then the pressure really comes on - from trainers - & from owners. It's the only way (short of a whips ban). J 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryb Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Watch what happens in Vic Jess, my understanding is that only a week ago they surveyed patrons at some race tracks on whip use, pointed to a change coming very soon. NZ will follow suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimbu Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Why follow suit? Why doesn't the industry act now? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryb Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 7 hours ago, Chimbu said: Why follow suit? Why doesn't the industry act now? I would imagine there’s a few more pressing issues going on right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Isn't this one of the things contributing to the "more pressing issues"? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Don't forget the 'warnings' yesterday as well...including the very lenient allowances in the Amatuer race... J Fillmore MEANT TO BEExcessive use of whip [Rule 638(3)(b)(ii)]S Karnicnik KINGS KITE Excessive use of whip [Rule 638(3)(b)(ii)] W Gordon LACUSTRE Excessive use of whip [Rule 638(3)(b)(ii)] D Mansour RIPPIN Excessive use of whip [Rule 638(3)(b)(ii)]A Goindasamy GRAND RIO Excessive use of whip [Rule 638(3)(b)(ii)] This is very timely to get rid of these horrendous Amatuer riders races though... Their abusive whip record was nothing short of APPALLING last season... Either that or a good series to trial the NO WHIP concept...or possible down the shoulder use only...while retaining the reins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jess Posted June 4, 2019 Author Share Posted June 4, 2019 Agree Curious - not saying it's the be-all and end-all - but besides the image (which they pay a whole lot of PR people handsomely to protect!) it's a matter of animal welfare. So yes -I think it is worth getting right. Thanks Thomass for that- I hadn't checked out the stipe report myself. So doesn't that just illustrate the point perfectly?! A whole bunch that transgressed but got the wet bus ticket treatment .. and amateurs in particular - barely stung by fines (which owners probably paid) - a suspension would have limited impact - but guess what would have worked? (you got it and I've labored the point - take the bloody race off them!) We are modelling to the amateurs - the apprentices - and demonstrating to the public - that our industry is ok with horses getting whipped 20+ times in the straight. Wake up people. I care because I am invested (to the limits of my meagre resources) in this industry - and because I have loved horses for my lifetime. Sorry to be so blunt. J. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 On 3/06/2019 at 2:40 PM, Chimbu said: I support the call for change that seems to be emerging. The whip is just a tool, one that racing can do without, IMO. Removing whip use won't harm racing, nor will it damage the image of it held by many not directly involved in the industry. A good jockey will get the best out of their mount using all the skills they possess - hands, heels, voice, kidding to the horse etc.. Some of our lesser skilled & less experienced jockeys may even ride in a more balanced fashion without the whip. Couldn't agree more. And to Jess - dont apologize, I agree with you too....but I couldn't quote your post because my phone is agreeing and doing the weirdest things. Look at the races Tina Comignaghi wins, she does flap with her whip but really, what a waste of time, she can't use it but her mounts just keep giving for her. The English model might look a bit ugly to our eye, but the strong upper body is the key there....and how many bashers do you see in HK? As Thommo says, it wont take long to positively select those free going and genuine sorts....and - as for punters - who wants to drop a heap of money on a horse who doesn't want to be there? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 ....and the autocorrect decided ageing was agreeing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 16 hours ago, jess said: Agree Curious - not saying it's the be-all and end-all - but besides the image (which they pay a whole lot of PR people handsomely to protect!) it's a matter of animal welfare. So yes -I think it is worth getting right. Thanks Thomass for that- I hadn't checked out the stipe report myself. So doesn't that just illustrate the point perfectly?! A whole bunch that transgressed but got the wet bus ticket treatment .. and amateurs in particular - barely stung by fines (which owners probably paid) - a suspension would have limited impact - but guess what would have worked? (you got it and I've labored the point - take the bloody race off them!) We are modelling to the amateurs - the apprentices - and demonstrating to the public - that our industry is ok with horses getting whipped 20+ times in the straight. Wake up people. I care because I am invested (to the limits of my meagre resources) in this industry - and because I have loved horses for my lifetime. Sorry to be so blunt. J. Taking races off them is a continuing debate...happened once in Australia...and probably never again...Stipes here are totally gun shy over the situation... The other thing is what the hell are we doing allowing 15yo school kids like Luke Myers loose on the race course where they have no means to pay a fine if this happens? They should have suspended him but the whip rules don't allow that...apart from serious breaches...and you could argue winning a race by breaking the rules is serious I guess ...he got his fine reduced due to the fact he's not earning then... 8 career rides now for 2 illegal whip breaches... 30 strikes up the straight....14 before the 100M... Just ban amatuer races... They have no place in this day and age...not only are they a shocking sight But they're taking rides off struggling professionals Mr Oatham produced Mr Myers' record which showed one previous breach under this Rule in the last 12 months. This occurred on 15 August 2018 and resulted in a $250 fine. He said that a fine would be an appropriate penalty for this breach and he reminded the Committee that Amateur Jockeys ride infrequently for no monetary gain. He said Mr Myers' riding style was untidy and there was a pause for 4 strides, albeit not the required 5. He added that although he incurred a $250 fine for his first breach of the rule, a similar ($250) monetary fine would suffice on this occasion due to Mr Myers' status. Mr Myers said that he accepted the Stewards' submission as to quantum of fine. In response to questions from the Committee Mr Myers said that he was still attending school and had no financial means to pay a fine, but if given the choice between a suspension or fine he would prefer a fine. The Committee was advised that Mr Myers has had 8 career rides to date. Reasons For Penalty: The Committee considered all the evidence and submissions presented. Given that this was a whip breach, animal welfare was at the forefront of our decision making. We reviewed the race film and confirmed that Mr Myers struck his mount 14 times with no more than 4 strides respite. It is also noteworthy that MIZZENA won the race by a short margin (a head). The JCA Guide establishes the starting point for a 2nd admitted breach is a $500 fine. Ordinarily for whip breaches we are reluctant to impose a fine less than the starting point unless there are exceptional or extenuating circumstances, in which case we may do so in the exercise of our discretion. We assessed the breach as mid-range after taking into account the number of strikes and the force used by Mr Myers. In mitigation we had due regard for Mr Myers' Amateur status; his limited number of career rides and the fact that he is a student with no earning capacity. We did consider a suspension as an option but given the limited number of available meetings providing races for Amateur riders, we opted for a fine; and therefore after taking into account all the above factors the Committee considers a fine of $400 appropriate. This reflects the fact that professional riders are able to off-set any fine, in part, with their riding fee, whereas Amateur riders do not receive a riding fee. Further as a 15 year old college student, we recognised that Mr Myers has limited means to pay a fine. The $100 reduction from the starting point reflects these two factors. Mr Myers was reminded by the Committee of his future obligations. Specifically he was advised that a 3rd breach of this Rule within 12 months would result in a suspension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 (edited) So get this....and Parkes is the highlight Jock for knowing the whip rules backwards...which makes him go forwards...very fast... ...whips winner Victor Vegas fully 33 times...could have been 34/35 even....from the 600M wins by a nose...and NEVER BROKE THE RULE ...that's how lax our International obligations to the Whip rule stand... ...we stand alone in first world jurisdictions.... NZTR are totally out of touch on many things...and this is THE major one Edited June 19, 2019 by Thomass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 What you are assuming is that the "protesters" were actually watching. The punters were. But let's envicerate ourselves without cause. The jockey gets fined but does the horse EVER get relegated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 Wake up... Generation Zee are the future...and caring for Animals is one of their things... Nothing turns them off more than watching Parkes wackaroo 33 times in a race... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Thomass said: Wake up... Generation Zee are the future...and caring for Animals is one of their things... Nothing turns them off more than watching Parkes wackaroo 33 times in a race... The point is Thomaas is they are not WATCHING! So why should we care? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasel Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: The point is Thomaas is they are not WATCHING! So why should we care? because horses respond to kindness better than cruelty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: The point is Thomaas is they are not WATCHING! So why should we care? Because we are (supposed to be) horse lovers....and it is the right way to move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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