Vision for thoroughbred racing

[barryb]

Yeah they do want it, they just don’t want all afternoon. That’s where my 3 hrs of Racing 20 comes from,1 November till 28 Feb 5pm till 8pm.

Imagine finishing work at 4pm Friday, grabbing the kids for a nights entertainment every 20 mins, then home at 8pm. Makes bloody good sense to me.

[curious]

5 hours ago, barryb said:

Yeah they do want it, they just don’t want all afternoon. That’s where my 3 hrs of Racing 20 comes from,1 November till 28 Feb 5pm till 8pm.

Imagine finishing work at 4pm Friday, grabbing the kids for a nights entertainment every 20 mins, then home at 8pm. Makes bloody good sense to me.

Tried to get the Trainers' Association to push for that in the late 90s. Wouldn't hear of it. Too hard. Requires extra staff and organisation, not enough lead time for betting, etc. etc.

[curious]

8 hours ago, Freda said:

You're right of course....but I guess I'm taking the view that without some forward thinking the hole just gets dug more quickly.

What would you suggest, taking into account the reality of the revenue / costs situation?

Not sure at this point. It may be too late to turn around. 5 or 6 years ago there seemed to be a glimmer of a hope if things were sorted quickly but it really needed to happen a decade or two ago. The focus needs to be on the product, both the TR product and the wagering product. On the first, it's the same old things. Integrity, handicapping system, track surfaces, stakes structure etc. as well as ideas like Barryb's Racing 20. Such a thing could be piloted at virtually no cost and I think would not only appeal to track goers but also those who might gather for a couple of hours in pubs, clubs and homes  to have a drink, a bite to eat, watch a few races and have a few bets. Potential there to expose the young ones too.

The wagering product is pretty obvious I think. Hard to believe that NZ has gone from being a world leader with the introduction of off course betting in the 50s to the parlous state it is in today and that mainly by way of delayed reaction to, rather than anticipation of, social change. We now have more of the same with the introduction of the PoC tax further increasing costs to punters and encouraging the TAB to price even less competitively.

It's a sad day to have to say this, but I'm not sure if all the necessary fixes were put in place tomorrow that the ship won't still go down. I'm also not convinced that moving the deck chairs by way of closing/building tracks are likely to provide any more than additional costs, put more pressure on already failing tracks, and ultimately worsen rather than improve the product.

[Freda]

Agree here too.

I like Barryb's ideas,   can't see why a  Racing20 trial couldn't take place without ado in the coming summer.

Major Cup days would need a longer exposure as well as those country days that are left, I guess.

Track improvements will have to wait until there is funding to do the work, a catch-22 for sure....but the other refinements you suggest can be implemented .

Is there the will?  That is the concern, the handicapping/programming/stakes structure highlighted by you and R.H. a few years ago was largely ignored - and when I brought it up with B Saundry more recently ( and forwarded him the work that he claimed to have not seen ) there was no acknowledgement or action whatsoever. All that can be worked upon at no cost at all.

[Chief Stipe]

The Racing 20 is novel.  Given most of the punting is off-course this might attract more revenue as it will detract from the flood of Ozzie races that we get between NZ ones.

You might find some of the jockey's complaining though!  

My understanding is that NZ is not totally in control of it's raceday scheduling as there are TV tradeoff's with the Aussie jurisdictions.

[Newmarket]

20 minute interval, meetings over in 3 hours??? Hardly going to work, inquiries in nz take far longer than 20mins, dodgy tab down plenty. 

But racing clubs make their money off eating & drinking packages? Will want punters to stay far longer than 3 hrs, want them drinking and betting off course longer. 

[Chief Stipe]

29 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

20 minute interval, meetings over in 3 hours??? Hardly going to work, inquiries in nz take far longer than 20mins, dodgy tab down plenty. 

But racing clubs make their money off eating & drinking packages? Will want punters to stay far longer than 3 hrs, want them drinking and betting off course longer. 

As far as I know on-course punters betting off-course don't benefit the club in any way.

Retaining people on course to eat and drink more is as simple as providing amenities and prices commensurate with the local pub!

[All The Aces]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

The Racing 20 is novel.  Given most of the punting is off-course this might attract more revenue as it will detract from the flood of Ozzie races that we get between NZ ones.

You might find some of the jockey's complaining though!  

My understanding is that NZ is not totally in control of it's raceday scheduling as there are TV tradeoff's with the Aussie jurisdictions.

No it's not. Ellerslie already do this with twilight racing six race cards.

Best example Karaka Millions evening. Six quality races. This year the first was at 4:41 and the last run at 7:48.  

[Dazza not Bazza]

I think the clubs should take matters into their own hands,as much as possible and be more proactive in the way that meetings are scheduled.If the smaller clubs banded together in the regions to form 'circuits'racing on the midweek days leading up towards major carnivals.This would have many benefits such as more consistent form for punters(nz AND overseas) reduced travelling costs if horses can be stabled in one spot for up to two months al la ruakaka,the possibility of a grand final day for all grades with incentives for owners AND punters.This would /should be led by the clubs as it will possibly be contrary to the messara plan for closures but it would give ANY club the chance to survive by teaming up with other clubs .

More money is spent on nz racing by overseas punters than kiwis so we MUST give those punters a more consistent product if you want more turnover(every wed northern ,thu cd,fri sth island)with the same horses, same jockeys,racing on the same surface week after week it must be better for all and at the very least would be more cost effective for the same crap

[Freda]

36 minutes ago, Dazza not Bazza said:

I think the clubs should take matters into their own hands,as much as possible and be more proactive in the way that meetings are scheduled.If the smaller clubs banded together in the regions to form 'circuits'racing on the midweek days leading up towards major carnivals.This would have many benefits such as more consistent form for punters(nz AND overseas) reduced travelling costs if horses can be stabled in one spot for up to two months al la ruakaka,the possibility of a grand final day for all grades with incentives for owners AND punters.This would /should be led by the clubs as it will possibly be contrary to the messara plan for closures but it would give ANY club the chance to survive by teaming up with other clubs .

More money is spent on nz racing by overseas punters than kiwis so we MUST give those punters a more consistent product if you want more turnover(every wed northern ,thu cd,fri sth island)with the same horses, same jockeys,racing on the same surface week after week it must be better for all and at the very least would be more cost effective for the same crap

I like the way you think,  but NZTR have say over when/how a club races, and would be likely to refuse a raceday licence if the proposals didn't sit well with them.

It is the 'chopping up ' of existing circuits that has buggered some of the traditional days.  The West Coast of the south island is on the way out with the elimination of the Hokitika track for racing purposes, and can only be followed by the others at some stage as stakeholders see the writing on the wall.

Similarly, the separation of Nelson/Westport/Blenheim has led to two of the three venues no longer used for galloping,  with the third - Blenheim - hanging on by the skin of its teeth.

[All The Aces]

NZTR don't have the say Freda.

The NZRB are in charge of the date allocations and race times  and if any meeting get rescheduled etc it has to have approval from them also. 

[curious]

2 hours ago, All The Aces said:

No it's not. Ellerslie already do this with twilight racing six race cards.

Best example Karaka Millions evening. Six quality races. This year the first was at 4:41 and the last run at 7:48.  

Think you'll find those are the same boring old 35/40 minutes apart. An hour for the million. Not what barryb is proposing at all.

[curious]

5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

You might find some of the jockey's complaining though! 

They manage at trials 10-12 minutes apart and a lot more of them. Of course they have to weigh in and out that would take a bit more organisation but they'd have much shorter days for their efforts.

[Freda]

4 hours ago, All The Aces said:

NZTR don't have the say Freda.

The NZRB are in charge of the date allocations and race times  and if any meeting get rescheduled etc it has to have approval from them also. 

They do indeed..but it is NZTR who grants - or otherwise - a clubs permit to race.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Freda

[Huey]

5 hours ago, Dazza not Bazza said:

I think the clubs should take matters into their own hands,as much as possible and be more proactive in the way that meetings are scheduled.If the smaller clubs banded together in the regions to form 'circuits'racing on the midweek days leading up towards major carnivals.This would have many benefits such as more consistent form for punters(nz AND overseas) reduced travelling costs if horses can be stabled in one spot for up to two months al la ruakaka,the possibility of a grand final day for all grades with incentives for owners AND punters.This would /should be led by the clubs as it will possibly be contrary to the messara plan for closures but it would give ANY club the chance to survive by teaming up with other clubs .

More money is spent on nz racing by overseas punters than kiwis so we MUST give those punters a more consistent product if you want more turnover(every wed northern ,thu cd,fri sth island)with the same horses, same jockeys,racing on the same surface week after week it must be better for all and at the very least would be more cost effective for the same crap

Have you ever been on a committee and dealt with NZTR?

Take resources away from the larger well supported racing clubs with all the race day licences and favourable funding, love to know how you think the smaller clubs could get together and do this? 

[Huey]

7 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

As far as I know on-course punters betting off-course don't benefit the club in any way.

Retaining people on course to eat and drink more is as simple as providing amenities and prices commensurate with the local pub!

Any punting on course benefits the racing club , dependent of course on what type of day the club is holding i.e. an industry day doesn't get any % of on course turnover unless its and Event day and so on.

[Chief Stipe]

12 minutes ago, Huey said:

Any punting on course benefits the racing club , dependent of course on what type of day the club is holding i.e. an industry day doesn't get any % of on course turnover unless its and Event day and so on.

All well and good but any punter keen to bet off course off shore will be using other options than pitching up to the dear old folk manning the on course terminal!

[Huey]

38 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

All well and good but any punter keen to bet off course off shore will be using other options than pitching up to the dear old folk manning the on course terminal!

Clearly if you aren't betting with the NZ TAB then that doesn't count, sorry I thought that would go without saying.

[Chief Stipe]

12 minutes ago, Huey said:

Clearly if you aren't betting with the NZ TAB then that doesn't count, sorry I thought that would go without saying.

Yes but if you are betting with the NZ TAB on off course races while on course using anything but the dear old folk on the on course terminals how do the TAB know?

[Huey]

8 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yes but if you are betting with the NZ TAB on off course races while on course using anything but the dear old folk on the on course terminals how do the TAB know?

They don't , perhaps I misunderstood you . I didnt realise you were referring to punting on devices.

[Dazza not Bazza]

12 hours ago, Huey said:

Have you ever been on a committee and dealt with NZTR?

Take resources away from the larger well supported racing clubs with all the race day licences and favourable funding, love to know how you think the smaller clubs could get together and do this? 

Certainly it would be a difficult if not impossible task ,but most if not all club committees are composed of capable people with a vast knowledge of business inside and outside racing so if ANYONE could do it ,they could.

IMO what they should do is something like this....Timaru and ashburton ,maybe rangiora team up and request a block of consecutive wednesdays in sept oct leading up to nz cup week,they would program lead up / qualifying races for the cup and other stakes races AND they could create a stand alone series of their own with grand finals at one of those tracks OR riccarton (it could strengthen the middle day considerably)

I chose timaru because it fits perfectly but as we all know it is closing, but any club should be able to make a compelling case with a little help from other clubs.However some clubs must go !! and the ones that deserve to stay will have to fight to the bitter end but just moaning wont help,they need a plan and I think those business leaders who man the club committees can formulate one or two (or iron out the wrinkles in my idea)

 

[Freda]

Rangiora ( unfortunately) will never have galloping races again.....political stupidity.

As I said, I like your ideas but dealing with head-in-the-sand administration is a soul destroying business.

 

[Dazza not Bazza]

29 minutes ago, Freda said:

Rangiora ( unfortunately) will never have galloping races again.....political stupidity.

As I said, I like your ideas but dealing with head-in-the-sand administration is a soul destroying business.

 

It could be any course or group of courses but what I am saying would be beneficial for punters anywhere and everywhere and here is another idea ,what would/could happen if the clubs got control of the jackpots that they generate?What if they made them easier(concessions)terminate on the final race on the day ,or terminate on the season finale,I am sure there are other ways of injecting a bit of interest in jackpots that the clubs could do a better job of in a small way that might have a bigger payoff nationwide.I must say that I am against the current system of partial payouts (who wants to win LESS MONEY?)

 

[Freda]

You should debate your points with Reefton...as a small club official and very conversant with figures he could give you better reasons why/why not than I could.

However the ideas you put forward show an ability to think outside the square that has been needed for ages but not made use of - here, anyway.  Plenty evident in NSW  by the look of it.

 

[Reefton]

Most of you are talking tripe here.

The reality of life is that subsidising a business entity or sector is madness.  And we all know exactly who the subsidised mob in NZ racing are don't we?  (if you don't have a look at Barryb's list of tracks he wants to close and it is all the ones not on the list).

The only option to prolong the life of NZ racing(and like Curious I really worry it is past the point of no return) is to reintroduce proportionate payouts to Clubs for their turnover.  So lets say total turnover is $600m for the year and the payout is $150m(I know the later is about right just not sure of the annual betting figures).  So the average Club on the average day ought to get 25% of its turnover as a return(assuming the industry can afford it of course).

Now we need racing at least six days a week and year round so paying a flat 25% on turnover is impractical at this time of year or on a Tuesday say when people have spent their pay.  So a bit of analysis to work out how to even that up would be needed but say the intent is to get every club $125k per day as a base.  If I am racing in July with a $400k turnover I would get 31% whereas if I race in January with a $750k turnover then I would get 16.67%.  Before you say that is not fair it is to make sure there is an incentive for Clubs to race on the unattractive winter, Mondays or other undesirable dates.  

Clubs racing on Saturdays could maybe get a little more percentage wise so they can afford somewhat higher stakes BUT the idea of Derby day turning over $4m and paying out $2m in stakes is utter madness.  The downtrodden battlers of the game - whether they be trainers, owners or whoever - are merely subsidising the fat cats (we all know who they are) on those days and that is not good enough.   If NZB want to pay a fortune for KM night all well and good but don't expect the NZ industry to pay for it(especially when a lot of NZ trainers cannot even think about buying something from Karaka).

As an incentive to Clubs to provide a quality experience there should be more paid for on course turnover so that they provide attractions to racing newcomers.  Despite what Barryb has to say you only need to think how many Cantabrians who might go one or two days to Riccarton per year religiously turn up to Kumara 150 miles away - the point is the quality of the experience (despite what a dump Kumara actually is).  AND plenty of flashly dressed women turn up to Kumara as well  - the point is people like to be where others are and Kumara is one of those places.  Riccarton on the other hand has very very few days in a year where more than a handful of people turn up and they need incentives to correct that.

Now of course the upshot of a 'receive what you earn' scenario is that the 'big' clubs(essentially all the ones Barryb wants to keep open)would find that they are living beyond their means and would have to either reduce their costs, drastically reduce their stakes or bite the bullet and relocate(which ultimately is the best option for NZ racing).  Places like Te Rapa, Trentham and Riccarton are shit holes for significant parts of the year hence nobody wants to go there.  Sell them up and buy property in better draining areas where you can set up decent tracks and better facilities(hopefully tied in with transport options - Riccarton for instance to West Melton or Darfield beside the railway line.  Te Rapa to God knows where).  And most importantly don't let 'turf experts' within a million miles of the tracks.  I have said it a thousand times - any time an expert touches a track they bugger it up and there is no better example than Te Rapa.

Ellerslie with its property income streams could probably survive but if Ron Brierley was running it it to would be sold off(or at least totally redeveloped in joint ventures for commercial property) and the proceeds used to fund a decent facility somewhere  further out(of maybe even Avondale since it is clearly a superior track surface).  It is basic economics but of course the Messara Mafia would not accept it as they persist in thinking that the small clubs are somehow getting a benefit at the big Clubs expense.  Considering some of those guys are pretty successful businessmen they are surprisingly accepting of blatant subsidising of certain organisations within NZ racing.  How would Sir Patrick for instance have reacted if NZTR had said that Waikato Stud breds got 20% added to their stake money because that was where they were bred?  

In conjunction to encourage top quality training facilities I would have the home track of every runner paid for each runner produced(more if it is stabled in the track as well but someone like Steve McKee or Byerley Park with their own tracks and property would get industry help to maintain it) 

And finally one thing we all agree on - take the machete to the hierarchy of NZ racing and sort out NZRB or RITA (or whatever the eff it is being called this week), the TAB and NZTR.  No more bloody import CEO's for a start.