Thomass Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: I won't ask Thomaas this question has I'll get a Dickhead answer preceded by a Dickhead and ending with a Dickhead. Mardigras: How does SW&P discourage punters? For that matter how does Handicap racing encourage punters to bet more? In my opinion there are bigger issues with the handicapping system that would discourage punters e.g. the 2kg female allowance, the limited upper and lower weight limits and the corresponding lack of spread. How about a FFS? Its the Racing Industry's raisin Dee tear.... If every race was WFA we'd be racing for plastic Cups... Stupidly Ellerslie's Committee thought they'd be smart ass's and changed ICONIC races like the Easter Hcp to SFA Weights Now back to Handicap but losing their precious G1 Who gives a f about that? Oh yea the selfish Breeders... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, Thomass said: Oh yea the selfish Breeders... How does it help the Breeders? I understand how the female allowance supposedly does but don't think it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All The Aces Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: How does it help the Breeders? I understand how the female allowance supposedly does but don't think it does. Of course breeders are helped if their mare has black type race form on the pedigree page in the sales ring. Breeders will want the highest black type rating on the page ie G1 so if a race is downgraded to G2 or G3 it does have an effect. So they certainly won't want races being downgraded. Pretty obvious I would have thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 25 minutes ago, All The Aces said: Of course breeders are helped if their mare has black type race form on the pedigree page in the sales ring. Breeders will want the highest black type rating on the page ie G1 so if a race is downgraded to G2 or G3 it does have an effect. So they certainly won't want races being downgraded. Pretty obvious I would have thought. Of course Breeders want Black Type on the page. But how does SW & P facilitate that? That isn't "pretty obvious." I can see the logic behind the 2kg female allowance but I'm not sure that there is evidence to show that it actually improves the chances of mares getting Black Type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All The Aces Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: Of course Breeders want Black Type on the page. But how does SW & P facilitate that? That isn't "pretty obvious." I can see the logic behind the 2kg female allowance but I'm not sure that there is evidence to show that it actually improves the chances of mares getting Black Type. Thomas was referring to the down grade from G1 status when referring to the breeders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 That isn't how I interpreted his post which is as follows: 8 hours ago, Thomass said: THe SW&F All penalty Races were adopted to appease the deniers aka 'Breeders' that we have far too many Black Type races run beyond the appropriate international level... He is stating quite clearly that SW & P were introduced at the behest of the 'Breeders'..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandpiper Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Converting a race from handicap to SW&P is designed to retain its status by encouraging higher rated horses to enter, since they are better off at the weights. Can't remember the exact source for that, some article about the Telegraph a couple of years ago. While it can be seen as helping breeders, clubs and anyone else with an interest in races not being downgraded also benefit. Don't see any conspiracy. The format is ok I dislike how it has changed the history of races though and left gaps in the calendar. How many handicaps are there left worth over $50k now up to a mile? Hardly any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Changing a race from handicap to SW&P to try and attract a better quality field is hit and miss anyway, given the overall level/numbers of quality horses racing in NZ. So I suspect those races (and more will continue to be downgraded). We shouldn't have black type handicaps anyway. That in itself is a joke. Since black type and breeding is supposed to be about the best, not the best relative to handicap. Just run a handicap for whatever stake you want. It doesn't require any black type status. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Fish Posted January 12, 2020 Author Share Posted January 12, 2020 1 hour ago, mardigras said: Changing a race from handicap to SW&P to try and attract a better quality field is hit and miss anyway, given the overall level/numbers of quality horses racing in NZ. So I suspect those races (and more will continue to be downgraded). As a person with a interest in 'racing history' etc that causes pangs of nostalgia, but in my rational brain I know it doesn't actually make much difference with my punting! if anything it should actually help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 18 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: How does it help the Breeders? I understand how the female allowance supposedly does but don't think it does. Oh pleeeease... Its VIRTUALLY WFA...but stupider... A horse beaten a nose in a G1 gets ZILCH...the winner 3kg's... ..exactly the same ridiculous 18 month scenario of 1 day So OBVIOUSLY it assists Breeders in providing more opportunities for the best horse to win... ...not a smart Shilling for Jillings type trainer beating the Handicapper ...which is what creates BETTING A Group 1 performing horse on level weights with a duffer Breeders love it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All The Aces Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 6 hours ago, Sandpiper said: Converting a race from handicap to SW&P is designed to retain its status by encouraging higher rated horses to enter, since they are better off at the weights. Can't remember the exact source for that, some article about the Telegraph a couple of years ago. While it can be seen as helping breeders, clubs and anyone else with an interest in races not being downgraded also benefit. Don't see any conspiracy. The format is ok I dislike how it has changed the history of races though and left gaps in the calendar. How many handicaps are there left worth over $50k now up to a mile? Hardly any. That is it in a nutshell Piper. The clubs want to retain the race status at group level which of course means extra funding the higher the status and the breeders want to retain the highest status to support and enhance black type on the pedigree page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 6 hours ago, Sandpiper said: Converting a race from handicap to SW&P is designed to retain its status by encouraging higher rated horses to enter, since they are better off at the weights. Can't remember the exact source for that, some article about the Telegraph a couple of years ago. While it can be seen as helping breeders, clubs and anyone else with an interest in races not being downgraded also benefit. Don't see any conspiracy. The format is ok I dislike how it has changed the history of races though and left gaps in the calendar. How many handicaps are there left worth over $50k now up to a mile? Hardly any. Hilarious stuff sandy How on earth does it "help anyone else with an interest in races"?? Who gives a shit if the previous ICONIC Easter and Telegraph HANDICAPS get a warning from the Breeders for a downgrade? Imagine the ICONIC Doncaster/Epsom Handicaps getting the push for some jumped up breeder in Oz? Na...wouldn't happen...only in NZ would it...and it did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 1 hour ago, mardigras said: Changing a race from handicap to SW&P to try and attract a better quality field is hit and miss anyway, given the overall level/numbers of quality horses racing in NZ. So I suspect those races (and more will continue to be downgraded). We shouldn't have black type handicaps anyway. That in itself is a joke. Since black type and breeding is supposed to be about the best, not the best relative to handicap. Just run a handicap for whatever stake you want. It doesn't require any black type status. It's accepted Australasian practice.... International yearling buyers know the difference... Imagine the iconic Melbourne Cup recieving NO Black Type? Na...almost nobody can...except you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 27 minutes ago, Thomass said: It's accepted Australasian practice.... International yearling buyers know the difference... Imagine the iconic Melbourne Cup recieving NO Black Type? Na...almost nobody can...except you What difference would it make to the majority of racegoers? The party would still go on, the fashions, the drunks, would still be a big part of the day. I don't really think ( stand to be corrected of course ) that the international runners come because it's a Grp 1, but because it's a shitload of money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 ...and I agree, handicaps should NOT be Grp 1, pattern races are for determining the best of the crop, handicaps are for betting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 39 minutes ago, Thomass said: It's accepted Australasian practice.... International yearling buyers know the difference... Imagine the iconic Melbourne Cup recieving NO Black Type? Na...almost nobody can...except you List the number and the name of Handicap Black Type races that influence yearling buyer decisions? The iconic Melbourne Cup would still be the iconic Melbourne Cup even if it wasn't a Grp1. Owners and trainers don't race their horses in it to get Black Type. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 9 minutes ago, Freda said: What difference would it make to the majority of racegoers? The party would still go on, the fashions, the drunks, would still be a big part of the day. I don't really think ( stand to be corrected of course ) that the international runners come because it's a Grp 1, but because it's a shitload of money. You're right...Nothing Im talking about the Catologue.... Some of the best Handicappers and WFA performers come from around the World... ...and there's no Black Type? Imagine a Mare winning from the top of the Handicap... ..it's comparable to an extraordinary performance in a SW race... ...where buyers usually know the 'Form' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, Thomass said: Some of the best Handicappers and WFA performers come from around the World... Why include WFA performers in your justification for Black Type Handicaps? 3 minutes ago, Thomass said: ...and there's no Black Type? Imagine a Mare winning from the top of the Handicap... ..it's comparable to an extraordinary performance in a SW race... ...where buyers usually know the 'Form' You really are talking illogical shit now. Once upon a time in NZ you MAY have given some credence to Black Type handicap form but the system here has been so bastardised and stuffed up that I would say it has no credence in the world of yearling buying. Geez even the punters reckon it is screwed. The difference with WFA is that it is an international standard that enables comparisons of performance across racing jurisdictions. A mare winning at the top of the handicap in New Zealand has been getting a "special" 2kg allowance all through her handicap racing career. So much for a fair comparison amongst her male peers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 54 minutes ago, Thomass said: Imagine the iconic Melbourne Cup recieving NO Black Type? Na...almost nobody can...except you It shouldn't. Most people who fully understand horse racing and things like black type, would agree. Probably why you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Thomass said: Some of the best Handicappers and WFA performers come from around the World... ...and there's no Black Type? Imagine a Mare winning from the top of the Handicap... ..it's comparable to an extraordinary performance in a SW race... ...where buyers usually know the 'Form' They wouldn't care. There isn't any horse where the black type from the Melbourne Cup adds any value as a breeding proposition. It is simply ignored. To get anywhere, they need black type that actually stacks up. It doesn't from the Melbourne Cup. Based on what you just wrote, you must think it has value in the breeding barn. How funny. Edited January 12, 2020 by mardigras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Why include WFA performers in your justification for Black Type Handicaps? You really are talking illogical shit now. Once upon a time in NZ you MAY have given some credence to Black Type handicap form but the system here has been so bastardised and stuffed up that I would say it has no credence in the world of yearling buying. Geez even the punters reckon it is screwed. The difference with WFA is that it is an international standard that enables comparisons of performance across racing jurisdictions. A mare winning at the top of the handicap in New Zealand has been getting a "special" 2kg allowance all through her handicap racing career. So much for a fair comparison amongst her male peers. What nonsense... Of course it has "credence"...Black Type stands out like a beacon..even for Magoos like you Buyers simply peruse the Catologue and take each BP at face value... Knowing Australiasian norms... Im sorry you still can't understand the Mare's 2kgs... It been explained ad nauseam...even sandpiper gets it Edited January 12, 2020 by Thomass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 31 minutes ago, mardigras said: They wouldn't care. There isn't any horse where the black type from the Melbourne Cup adds any value as a breeding proposition. It is simply ignored. To get anywhere, they need black type that actually stacks up. It doesn't from the Melbourne Cup. Based on what you just wrote, you must think it has value in the breeding barn. How funny. How absurd....but you do that well Of course BT in the Melbourne Cup isn't ignored... Almost all horses in the Cup have SW Black Type coming through to their now Everest... And INTERNATIONAL to boot Its yet another clanger you've dreamt up...hilarious though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Thomass said: How absurd....but you do that well Of course BT in the Melbourne Cup isn't ignored... Almost all horses in the Cup have SW Black Type coming through to their now Everest... And INTERNATIONAL to boot Its yet another clanger you've dreamt up...hilarious though Best you tell Freda she has it wrong as well then. "...and I agree, handicaps should NOT be Grp 1, pattern races are for determining the best of the crop, handicaps are for betting." Edited January 12, 2020 by mardigras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Freda's her own woman... ...but she said "Handicaps shouldn't be G1... Shed also think it absurd the Cup shouldn't have BT though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, Thomass said: Freda's her own woman... ...but she said "Handicaps shouldn't be G1... Shed also think it absurd the Cup shouldn't have BT though So according to what is written - Freda thinks handicaps shouldn't be G1, but according to you, she would think it absurd for the Melbourne Cup to not have black type. Does she think G2 or G3 is OK. Perhaps Listed? The notion of handicaps being any form of black type is one best suited to dunces. You fit well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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