Chief Stipe Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 I know it is easy to get overly critical particularly during times of stress but..... WHY is the TAB still running these cash back promo's during this crisis? I thought they weren't very profitable. Also unless they are advertising on mainstream TV what point are they? Surely it is only the captive racing follower that is betting online now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent54 Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: I know it is easy to get overly critical particularly during times of stress but..... WHY is the TAB still running these cash back promo's during this crisis? I thought they weren't very profitable. Also unless they are advertising on mainstream TV what point are they? Surely it is only the captive racing follower that is betting online now. where did you read they weren't very profitable? You are getting confused with the accounting mistake regarding them - hence why the CFO Shaun Brooks was fired. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 28, 2020 Author Share Posted March 28, 2020 17 minutes ago, Agent54 said: where did you read they weren't very profitable? You are getting confused with the accounting mistake regarding them - hence why the CFO Shaun Brooks was fired. Do you know if they are? When the "accounting mistake" was rectified what was the result? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent54 Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 Yes they are profitable. The result was Brooks got fired! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Fish Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 15 hours ago, Agent54 said: Yes they are profitable. The result was Brooks got fired! good work Agent 54 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 29, 2020 Author Share Posted March 29, 2020 20 hours ago, Agent54 said: Yes they are profitable. The result was Brooks got fired! How do you know? Do you have inside "sources"? Since the new regime (old regime with different names) took over we have got less information on profitability and turnover so it is hard for the rest of us to know. Oh and maybe Brooks got "fired" because he challenged some of the decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Fish Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Oh and maybe Brooks got "fired" because he challenged some of the decisions How do you know? Do you have inside "sources"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 29, 2020 Author Share Posted March 29, 2020 1 minute ago, Murray Fish said: How do you know? Do you have inside "sources"? I don't know and haven't said I did know. However what I do know is the bonus bets promotions can't be profitable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 30, 2020 Author Share Posted March 30, 2020 Why can't bonus bets promo's in racing be profitable? For a start let's look at the "free" bonus bets that target existing customers. They target existing captured customers who have an account. That is they are not marketed to potentially new customers; They vary in amount - some people get different amounts presumably based on the total amount they normally wager; The TAB is printing money i.e. they are generating a virtual voucher. I seriously doubt they would be allowed to use their bank credit line to inject real cash into their pools; So let's look at a specific example. Bob - bets regularly, mostly every day. Doesn't need much encouragement to do so ( Bob is a real person but his name has been changed for privacy reasons). He gets a $20 bonus free bet from the TAB which has to be used anytime between Friday afternoon and Sunday night. Suits him as he always turns up at the pub TAB with his mates for a Saturday afternoon of racing; Bob lines up a horse early in the day for a Win bet on fixed odds paying $5.50. First outcome he loses: $0 return. No harm done it was their money anyway. However that $20 went into the win pool and less about $3.00 (takeout rate 15%) and $17.00 paid out to those who backed the winner. Turnover went up $20 but did revenue go up $3? NO it didn't. You see that virtual $20 was worth zero as it wasn't real money. But the other punters in the pool who backed the winner have picked up an extra $17 spread amongst them. By my calculation on Bob's losing bet of $20 the TAB is down $17 in revenue. How could it be otherwise? It could be otherwise if the TAB don't actually put the value of Bob's virtual money bet into the pool when he bets. If that occurred Turnover wouldn't change and revenue would be the same. End result - if it is 1. then a loss of $17; if it is 2. Then no change in turnover or profit. On the TAB accounts this is probably recorded as a marketing cost. But knowing most Marketing Managers they've probably managed to push the total cost into Operational Cost. Bob Wins - Fixed Odds bet $20 on the nozzer. Pays $5.50: $110 return less $20 of the virtual money (which isn't virtual anymore). Yahoo. Bob is set up for the day $90 (real money). He could withdraw it - sometimes he does withdraw a bit. Why not let the TAB pay for his booze! What did the TAB make out of this transaction? Nothing from Bob. He spent the TAB virtual money. Turnover was up $20 however the all important revenue had zero change (I think - as it gets complicated). Bob took his winnings off the other punters in the pool; End result - for the TAB it is like kissing your sister - nothing in it. So if I have this right if Bob loses on his bet then the TAB loses significantly assuming they actually put the money in the pool (virtual or real). If Bob wins on his bet then the TAB make zero profit. The only way the TAB could increase profit in Bob's scenario is if he spends ALL of his winnings from his first bet PLUS his budget for the day. But Bob is a canny punter and sets himself a clear budget regardless and only increases his betting by 10% for the day. The pub does alright out of Bob because he buys an extra jug using the TAB's money. That's how I see it. I might have it completely wrong and am happy to have egg on my face if someone can educate me on the truth. Personally (this is probably where my bonus bets stop being put on my account) I don't bet much at all - can't afford it. However on two occasions I have won on a bonus bet and spent it all on bets and beer. Basically had a good afternoon with the old boys watching the racing. Went home with what I went with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 Mind you, the promos are terrible. Look what they are offering on Melody Belle & Shark today? Christ those odds piss poor, compare odds with beteasy??? And they give you 10 x bet returns? TAB are gone, not sure how they can survive in the future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 Where's the General Manager Betting and Product? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ Flash Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 On 28/03/2020 at 5:23 PM, Agent54 said: where did you read they weren't very profitable? You are getting confused with the accounting mistake regarding them - hence why the CFO Shaun Brooks was fired. Your not allowed to get the facts in the way of a good conspiracy thoery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 18 minutes ago, JJ Flash said: Your not allowed to get the facts in the way of a good conspiracy thoery Give us some facts then Greg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ Flash Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Give us some facts then Greg. Your quite good at taking others word for it on here but not mine so lets just leave it at that. In the fullness of time all will be revealed about the NZRB CFO and Agent 54 will be proven correct although i might suggest that it would be better described as redundancy Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 13 minutes ago, JJ Flash said: Your quite good at taking others word for it on here but not mine so lets just leave it at that. In the fullness of time all will be revealed about the NZRB CFO and Agent 54 will be proven correct although i might suggest that it would be better described as redundancy Greg Bollocks. The topic isn't about Brooks it's about whether promos are profitable. Facts please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 You what, i have been totally disappointed with TABs new fixed odds platform. WTF have they been paying for, nothing has changed, apart from a few more options on certain sports. Racing fixed odds are consistently unders, crap compared to rivals. But some of their promos have been crazy, here are a few examples. Promos on tennis after xmas, you placed a $10 sets bet on any game, regardless if you won or not, tab paid you a $1 for each ace your player served? Well hello, those earlier matches were easy to pick, take top seed player bet, sometimes these guys were serving 20,30 or more aces? I was getting heaps of bonus bets, trust me it was money for jam. Compare to aussie sites, they did similar, but only in selected games, mostly even matches??? Tab must have lost shitloads. Also had promo on darts, $50 on player sets betting, but gave you bonus bet on first leg checkout, I think the first few times i took it, checkouts were 76, 98 & 56. Tab stopped it shortly after? Just who is coming up with these offers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, Newmarket said: Just who is coming up with these offers? Exactly has Saville gone missing?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sunrise Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Give us some facts then Greg. Good luck with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLB2.0 Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Every week I get "Deposit $300 for $150 in bonus bets". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sunrise Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 1 hour ago, SLB2.0 said: Every week I get "Deposit $300 for $150 in bonus bets". You are joking?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandpiper Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Hard task to measure profitability of bonus bets promo imo. Some winning bonus bets would be withdrawn, sure. But some of those punters will soon deposit again. And perhaps their turnover will be higher for some time thanks to that win. How many additional bets were taken because punters were engaged by the promo? Or shared the promo with friends who created new accounts? How often did punters stick around instead of betting with overseas providers? Did your average 5k p.a. losing punter still find a way to churn their balance to lose the same amount despite getting a few bonus bumps along the way? TAB may have cocked up the accounting but that doesnt mean its a dumb promo. Especially if what they've done is double pay some winners as has been suggested, that could have happened in many other ways too. And the hint at coding faults could indicate a pending claim to be offset against the horrendous website service fees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLB2.0 Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 12 hours ago, Happy Sunrise said: You are joking?? Sometimes multiple times a week, depending on if I've made a deposit. Yet to win with the bonus bet though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Fish Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 On 11/04/2020 at 9:15 AM, Chief Stipe said: it's about whether promos are profitable. personally! I have u$e them well! but am only talking in a 'nickle and dime' fashion. Fun to play with! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent54 Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 On 3/30/2020 at 7:16 PM, Chief Stipe said: Why can't bonus bets promo's in racing be profitable? For a start let's look at the "free" bonus bets that target existing customers. They target existing captured customers who have an account. That is they are not marketed to potentially new customers; They vary in amount - some people get different amounts presumably based on the total amount they normally wager; The TAB is printing money i.e. they are generating a virtual voucher. I seriously doubt they would be allowed to use their bank credit line to inject real cash into their pools; So let's look at a specific example. Bob - bets regularly, mostly every day. Doesn't need much encouragement to do so ( Bob is a real person but his name has been changed for privacy reasons). He gets a $20 bonus free bet from the TAB which has to be used anytime between Friday afternoon and Sunday night. Suits him as he always turns up at the pub TAB with his mates for a Saturday afternoon of racing; Bob lines up a horse early in the day for a Win bet on fixed odds paying $5.50. First outcome he loses: $0 return. No harm done it was their money anyway. However that $20 went into the win pool and less about $3.00 (takeout rate 15%) and $17.00 paid out to those who backed the winner. Turnover went up $20 but did revenue go up $3? NO it didn't. You see that virtual $20 was worth zero as it wasn't real money. But the other punters in the pool who backed the winner have picked up an extra $17 spread amongst them. By my calculation on Bob's losing bet of $20 the TAB is down $17 in revenue. How could it be otherwise? It could be otherwise if the TAB don't actually put the value of Bob's virtual money bet into the pool when he bets. If that occurred Turnover wouldn't change and revenue would be the same. End result - if it is 1. then a loss of $17; if it is 2. Then no change in turnover or profit. On the TAB accounts this is probably recorded as a marketing cost. But knowing most Marketing Managers they've probably managed to push the total cost into Operational Cost. Bob Wins - Fixed Odds bet $20 on the nozzer. Pays $5.50: $110 return less $20 of the virtual money (which isn't virtual anymore). Yahoo. Bob is set up for the day $90 (real money). He could withdraw it - sometimes he does withdraw a bit. Why not let the TAB pay for his booze! What did the TAB make out of this transaction? Nothing from Bob. He spent the TAB virtual money. Turnover was up $20 however the all important revenue had zero change (I think - as it gets complicated). Bob took his winnings off the other punters in the pool; End result - for the TAB it is like kissing your sister - nothing in it. So if I have this right if Bob loses on his bet then the TAB loses significantly assuming they actually put the money in the pool (virtual or real). If Bob wins on his bet then the TAB make zero profit. The only way the TAB could increase profit in Bob's scenario is if he spends ALL of his winnings from his first bet PLUS his budget for the day. But Bob is a canny punter and sets himself a clear budget regardless and only increases his betting by 10% for the day. The pub does alright out of Bob because he buys an extra jug using the TAB's money. That's how I see it. I might have it completely wrong and am happy to have egg on my face if someone can educate me on the truth. Personally (this is probably where my bonus bets stop being put on my account) I don't bet much at all - can't afford it. However on two occasions I have won on a bonus bet and spent it all on bets and beer. Basically had a good afternoon with the old boys watching the racing. Went home with what I went with. No idea you have. The bonus bets aren't tote bets - they don't go into a pool with a set takeout. Give up while you are only this far behind. The only thing that makes sense is when you say you might have it completely wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 6, 2020 Author Share Posted May 6, 2020 3 minutes ago, Agent54 said: No idea you have. The bonus bets aren't tote bets - they don't go into a pool with a set takeout. Give up while you are only this far behind. The only thing that makes sense is when you say you might have it completely wrong. Thanks for your detailed and well thought out reply. I used an average takeout rate NOT specifically a tote takeout. At the end of the day someone pays. The only way the TAB wins is if those that get the bonus bets are perpetual losers and because of the incentive bet more than they would normally. No one has yet showed how they make a profit out of the promotions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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