Chief Stipe Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Just now, holy ravioli said: On that evidence you are either making assumptions or making shit up...both it looks. Well it appears we have to make concessions for your ability to comprehend something as simple as: WHAT POLITICAL IDEOLOGY DO YOU ESPOUSE? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Just now, Chief Stipe said: So are you suggesting we cut off one of our biggest trading partners? I cannot see where I have even suggested that! Brodie who you seem to think needs backing up,(he has gone for a drive)...has the intense hatred for Communists.China is a communist country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: And that proves??? That Sweden hasn't been affected as badly as we have. Also it would appear they are taking the hit early. Ardern (note I say Ardern and not the Labour Government) has used her biggest weapon - Level-4 too early and has wasted the opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Well it appears we have to make concessions for your ability to comprehend something as simple as: WHAT POLITICAL IDEOLOGY DO YOU ESPOUSE? Shouting is very rude Chief. Now accepting I am one of those people you used to love meeting at parties can we resume our original discussion about...'luck'. Trying to insert yourself into the discussion I'm having with this good sort Brodie is another example of...rudeness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said: That Sweden hasn't been affected as badly as we have. Also it would appear they are taking the hit early. Ardern (note I say Ardern and not the Labour Government) has used her biggest weapon - Level-4 too early and has wasted the opportunity. Pure unadulterated ,subjective assumption and opinion.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankiwi Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 31 minutes ago, Brodie said: Far more people are going to die in NZ because of the actions rather than the virus itself. As far as I'm aware, death is inevitable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: Pure unadulterated ,subjective assumption and opinion.? Not at all it is based on solid research and sound reasoning. The fact is Covid-19 cannot be eliminated - no matter how Arden tries to define the meaning of elimination. I see she has dropped that term now and is back to using suppression. So if you cannot eliminate Covid-19 therefor the best you can do is manage its rate of spread and impact. A vaccine if developed will not stop it but only serve to allow us to manage it. We can't expect any vaccine to be better than the flu vaccine which has an effectiveness of between 50 and 60%. This current Government imported 1.2m flu vaccines last year. Only 600,000 were administered. 1.7m were imported this year and so far 700,000 have been vaccinated. If Adern had any clue she would have widened the eligibility for free flu vaccinations. At the very least she would have reduced wastage but more importantly she would have reduce pressure on our hospital system which she told us was one of the main reasons for Level-4 lockdown. Have they used that time to eliminate the bottle necks in our hospital system? NO by deferring surgery they have created another bottle neck which without Covid-19 will take a 18 months to get back to the same numbers in the wait list. They haven't increased the number of ICU beds which is 334 for the country. Now the implementation of Level-4 was pointless and only served to defer the inevitable. When the inevitable happens the money tree will have been stripped and the general public wont be so eager to comply with Adern's directive to go back to Level-4. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 'The fact is Covid-19 cannot be eliminated '-too early to say. ' We can't expect any vaccine to be better than the flu vaccine which has an effectiveness of between 50 and 60%. '..course we can. 'Now the implementation of Level-4 was pointless and only served to defer the inevitable'...you're a cross between Capt Hindsight and Capt Foresight. What do you think Ruth would have ..done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 1 minute ago, holy ravioli said: 'The fact is Covid-19 cannot be eliminated '-too early to say. Scientific opinion is universal on this. It can't. 5 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: ' We can't expect any vaccine to be better than the flu vaccine which has an effectiveness of between 50 and 60%. '..course we can. That isn't what the scientists and epidemiologists are saying. Given the amount of time and money invested in developing flu vaccines over decades it is very unlikely. We still don't have a Universal Vaccine for influenza! 8 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: 'Now the implementation of Level-4 was pointless and only served to defer the inevitable'...you're a cross between Capt Hindsight and Capt Foresight. No I'm very conscious of getting that criticism. I have been saying this from the beginning along with my opinion that the Government was lax in not buying time sooner by closing our borders sooner. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 6 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Scientific opinion is universal on this. It can't. That isn't what the scientists and epidemiologists are saying. Given the amount of time and money invested in developing flu vaccines over decades it is very unlikely. We still don't have a Universal Vaccine for influenza! No I'm very conscious of getting that criticism. I have been saying this from the beginning along with my opinion that the Government was lax in not buying time sooner by closing our borders sooner. Is the Spanish Flu that killed millions in 1918 still a problem? If not...why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 9 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: Is the Spanish Flu that killed millions in 1918 still a problem? If not...why not? Yes it is still a problem. It is a Type A Influenza virus a variant of the subtype H1N1. It is also know as Swine Flu. There have been outbreaks since 1918. There was a pandemic in 2009 - John Key activated NZ's Pandemic Management Plan. There have been outbreaks ever year since. It is only recently that H1N1 protection has been included in Flu vaccinations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 The other reason I think Level-4 was used too early is that our seasonal peak flu months are normally June, July and August. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Fair enough ,you have based your opinion on some facts. My view is the Govt is damned whatever they do and when the wage subsidy runs out mid June there will be a backlash that could even catapult a meathead like Bridges into power....dread to imagine NZ with him at the helm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: Fair enough ,you have based your opinion on some facts. My view is the Govt is damned whatever they do and when the wage subsidy runs out mid June there will be a backlash that could even catapult a meathead like Bridges into power....dread to imagine NZ with him at the helm. Reality is Holy, the National Party has so many more that have business success than the coalition, although that would not be hard as The current government has NONE!! Lets see the brilliance of the budget that Robertson is due to Produce. Not sure whether it would be better for Ardern to get back in at the next election as the sheep that follow her will then realise what an absolute balls up they have caused, but then there is going to be such a mess for National to clean up in 3.5 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 1 hour ago, holy ravioli said: found it...The really dumb thing here is that the Government had already implemented a Pandemic Response plan on the 23rd of January, making Woodhouse’s comments null and void. Clearly Winston Peters’ metaphor concerning Bridges barking at every passing car also applies to the ignorant Michael Woodhouse.' and this...?' 'There's already considerable controversy about National’s existing Chinese MP, Jian Yang, who was outed in 2017 as an officer in the Chinese military who had taught at Chinese military intelligence schools. Yang, who has largely gone to ground, also lied about his previous positions in his application to become a New Zealand citizen, an offence that would normally result in extradition. But if all that wasn't bad enough, in September last year Simon Bridges also went to meet the head of China's secret Police, a meeting that we found out was secretly arranged by Jian Yang, which clearly indicates that the current leader of the National Party is in the pocket of the Chinese. No wonder people now call him Beijing Bridges.! So the Ardern led government set up this pandemic response plan in January 2020. So you are now saying that they have done such a great job that it took them nearly 2 months to close the borders????? So Ardern is going on about going hard and going urgently, so she is talking absolute Bull Shit, isn’t she Holy Crap? Look forward to your wisdom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 10 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: My view is the Govt is damned whatever they do and when the wage subsidy runs out mid June there will be a backlash that could even catapult a meathead like Bridges into power....dread to imagine NZ with him at the helm. I believe it is inevitable. I don't view Bridges as a meathead but I also don't view him as having a great intellect. However I do believe he knows his limitations and subsequently he would utilise those around him effectively. He wouldn't do as Adern has done and sideline his Cabinet and dissolve Parliament. This crisis isn't like the UK during WW2. Churchill used every resource available to him and kept the WHOLE Parliament informed AND involved. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Brodie said: Reality is Holy, the National Party has so many more that have business success than the coalition, although that would not be hard as The current government has NONE!! Lets see the brilliance of the budget that Robertson is due to Produce. Not sure whether it would be better for Ardern to get back in at the next election as the sheep that follow her will then realise what an absolute balls up they have caused, but then there is going to be such a mess for National to clean up in 3.5 years. National maintain the status quo...kick the can down the road for someone else to deal with.Never tackle the big issues..couldn't be arsed even amending the RMA,too busy changing pastoral lease clauses to enrich a handful at taxpayers expense. I thought you migh have run out of gas! Have you pumped up your...tyres?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Brodie said: So the Ardern led government set up this pandemic response plan in January 2020. Adern didn't create the plan there already was one that began development in 2006 and was actually activated in 2009. There were even Code for Levels of action. https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/research-papers/document/00PLSoc09041/human-influenza-a-h1n1-swine-flu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, Brodie said: So the Ardern led government set up this pandemic response plan in January 2020. So you are now saying that they have done such a great job that it took them nearly 2 months to close the borders????? So Ardern is going on about going hard and going urgently, so she is talking absolute Bull Shit, isn’t she Holy Crap? Look forward to your wisdom! My wisdom is that you have just been proven ..wrong..again. Funny you say she was too late...and CS says she was too early!! Got to love the blue army. Maybe you two should have a debate!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: National maintain the status quo...kick the can down the road for someone else to deal with.Never tackle the big issues..couldn't be arsed even amending the RMA,too busy changing pastoral lease clauses to enrich a handful at taxpayers expense. I thought you migh have run out of gas! Have you pumped up your...tyres?? FFS, the country was going very well before the last election and this bunch got in! None of the policies have. Even achieved by this lot! Kiwibuild? na Reduce child poverty. Na Pike River? Na Increase cost to business? Yes They are so business negative it is not funny. They have been very successful in having food banks grow and people,in more poverty but they are always good at that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: Funny you say she was too late...and CS says she was too early!! No that's not what I'm saying. I'm on record as saying I would have closed the border really early and not let anyone in until I'd sorted ourselves out. It would have been cheaper to send money to those caught overseas than close down the internal economy. So in that respect I would have gone early. I believe Brodie and I are on the same page on that one. However I wouldn't have implemented Level-4 and a complete lockdown. The data said we didn't have to. I would have got straight onto sorting out our hospitals systems bottle necks. Which still hasn't happened. Our hospital occupancy rate dropped to 50% and they considered that a success. In my opinion it is a disgrace and complete waste of resources. Adern panicked and believed the numbers that were thrown at her from dubious sources. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: My wisdom is that you have just been proven ..wrong..again. Funny you say she was too late...and CS says she was too early!! Got to love the blue army. Maybe you two should have a debate!? What are you talking about? I never effing said that the plan was brought in by Ardern, you did? You were the one clearly telling the lies Holy Crap, not me! So what you are saying now is that they did nothing whatsoever until too late! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Brodie said: FFS, the country was going very well before the last election and this bunch got in! None of the policies have. Even achieved by this lot! Kiwibuild? na Reduce child poverty. Na Pike River? Na Increase cost to business? Yes They are so business negative it is not funny. They have been very successful in having food banks grow and people,in more poverty but they are always good at that 'going very well'....you mean you were. What did the Natz do except borrow billions and ramp up the property market to foreign buyers and bring in migrants to work for low wages?=nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: No that's not what I'm saying. I'm on record as saying I would have closed the border really early and not let anyone in until I'd sorted ourselves out. It would have been cheaper to send money to those caught overseas than close down the internal economy. So in that respect I would have gone early. I believe Brodie and I are on the same page on that one. However I wouldn't have implemented Level-4 and a complete lockdown. The data said we didn't have to. I would have got straight onto sorting out our hospitals systems bottle necks. Which still hasn't happened. Our hospital occupancy rate dropped to 50% and they considered that a success. In my opinion it is a disgrace and complete waste of resources. I see ,so you would have gone earlier at level?...and saved L?evel 4 for later or do you have a completely new plan with the benefit of...hindsight? ' It would have been cheaper to send money to those caught overseas than close down the internal economy.'...did any other countries utilise this 'prudent' option? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Just now, holy ravioli said: I see ,so you would have gone earlier at level?...and saved L?evel 4 for later or do you have a completely new plan with the benefit of...hindsight? Referring to the Levels is a bit of a nonsense given they seem to be being made up as we go along. By Level-4 I mean complete lockdown of everything except essential services. Every action I took before that would be to avoid Level-4. That is Level-4 would be when every measure/action undertaken had failed and our hospital system was showing signs of failure. Did you know that Sweden has the lowest number of hospital beds per population in Europe? They seem to have coped and there aren't bodies stacked up in the streets or in refrigerated trucks. The early border closure wouldn't have been for long. Just long enough to tighten up our border checking and quarantine systems. I would have done that way before Adern did. Being a pragmatist I would have wired money to those who were caught overseas and I would have also talked to corresponding governments in other countries saying we'll look after yours if you look after ours. I don't know if any other country utilised this approach. I don't think that is relevant. As an aside you know those cards you fill out when you come back for overseas that you hand over to customs and MPI to look at? Do you know what happens to them after you hand them over? They go into storage in big boxes. I found that out in 2005 when working for MAF. Just before the lockdown I met a recently retired Customs official and asked him had things changed and was astounded to find out that they hadn't. So the first question I would have asked was about our border tracking systems. So I'd still have a stack of money and Level-4 up my sleeve. I would have also given free flu vaccines to all. I wouldn't be surprised if that is in the budget because it looks like they are on track to waste half of the purchased vaccines again. The reason for doing that is the cost benefit is that I am doing something that lessens the load on the hospital system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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