Who decides what's best for Racing? Punters, Owners, Trainers, NZTR or the IT Dept at RITA?

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

You'll find that many of the smaller tracks have community activities and other clubs hosted there.  For example pony clubs.  Reefton had a rugby ground in the centre of the track in the winter and an Athletic track in the summer when I went to school on the Coast.  I won the West Coast Secondary Schools 800m and 1500m races in the centre of track.  I remember it especially not just for that but the reason that the home bend curve abruptly turned into a straight.  If you had followed where the curve should have been you would have ended up 4 lanes wide in the straight.  Actually come to think about it that's how many of the horses raced around that bend on the course proper!!

Sure some will be sold off for housing but many will continue their other community activities and yes the cost will be borne by those clubs or the ratepayer instead of the racing club.  Which I assure you won't leave a favourable impression with the locals.

If you use the Westland Racing Club as an example.  They gifted the land, buildings and their cash back to the community.  Why would they gift it to other West Coast clubs?  Never in a thousand years would they gift it to Riccarton and they have too many brains to gift it the dead end that is Kumara.  Did you know Kumara has a permanent population of 300 and Hokitika's is 3,000?

Unfortunately Galah you have chosen the worst example with the Greymouth Trotting Club.  Now Maori Lease Land on the West Coast is another issue in itself.  I remember asking my dad as a young fella "why are the shops in Greymouth so old compared to ours in Hokitika?"  I knew it wasn't because one town was older than the other because Hokitika held that title. Probably still today Greymouth looks like it is stuck in a 1950's time warp. He said "Son you know my mate Ronny Messenger the suit maker and seller in Greymouth that we pop in and see when we are up there?"  "Yeah - the President of the NZ Rugby Union who you get our Test tickets off" says I.  "Well son here is a lesson for you in business.  Ronny owns his business but doesn't own his shop or the land it is on." 

"Eh? How does that work?"

"Well the land on the south side of the West Coast rivers were given to the Maori.  The Maori lease the land and the buildings back to the business owners.  Bloody Mawhera Incorporation!  More like Mafia Corporation.  So there is no incentive for Ronnie or any of the other businesses to spend money on their buildings because they don't own them.  He also has to pay rent for the privilege.  As you know Hokitika's town is on the north side and the only thing on the south side is farm land.  That's why I built my business in Hokitika."

Getting back to the Greymouth Trotting Club.  You'll find that they didn't GIVE the land back they just walked AWAY from the lease.  I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure it was Maori Lease land as many of the residential properties surrounding the track were.  I also understand as Freda eludes that the Mawhera Corporation was gouging the club for market rents based on god knows what basis because Greymouth back then wasn't the growth centre of New Zealand. 

So Galah not a good example however I'm sure you find that there are similar situations throughout the country.  LOL I would have loved to have seen Winston, Jones and RITA try to grab the assets of the Mawhera Corporation!!!  That really would have been fun!

The point i was trying to make is gifting land/or the lease of land back to the community does not mean the community always benefits. 

I used greymouth trotting club as  an example of that. Obviously you know a bit more about it than i,but a relation who lives in greymouth has told me about what it looks like today.Not just the trotting club, House owners with houses on the leased land had their rents substantially increased,some left,some no longer do any improvements. Pretty much the same happened not far from where i live about 5 years ago.

The Hokitika example you give is an interesting one. I wonder what that looks like now and if of any benefit to the locals?

I guess what your pointing out is for most racing clubs,their priorities are with the local community,over and above the racing industry .  Thus if they were to gift all assets/ or give up leases to local communities then racing will not benefit. 

So if the racing clubs in question don't want to help the racing industry then why the heck should the taxpayer or anyone else bother.

And if the viability of racing's future depends on an injection of funds that they won't get,then why would anyone currently involved expect to make any sort of living out of it.

So the answer is the racing industry doesn't have the desire to take the medicine that may save it.Everyone is interested in whats best for them,not the industry as a whole.

Edited May 11, 2020 by the galah

[Freda]

12 minutes ago, the galah said:

The point i was trying to make is gifting land/or the lease of land back to the community does not mean the community always benefits. 

I used greymouth trotting club as  an example of that. Obviously you know a bit more about it than i,but a relation who lives in greymouth has told me about what it looks like today.Not just the trotting club, House owners with houses on the leased land had their rents substantially increased,some left,some no longer do any improvements. Pretty much the same happened not far from where i live about 5 years ago.

The Hokitika example you give is an interesting one. I wonder what that looks like now and if of any benefit to the locals?

I guess what your pointing out is for most racing clubs,their priorities are with the local community,over and above the racing industry .  Thus if they were to gift all assets/ or give up leases to local communities then racing will not benefit. 

So if the racing clubs in question don't want to help the racing industry then why the heck should the taxpayer or anyone else bother.

And if the viability of racing's future depends on an injection of funds that they won't get,then why would anyone currently involved expect to make any sort of living out of it.

So the answer is the racing industry doesn't have the desire to take the medicine that may save it.Everyone is interested in whats best for them,not the industry as a whole.

Hokitika looks fine, wide clean streets and [generally ] attractive homes.   Interesting little stores, glass-blowing and greenstone/gold operations.   Very different to the dilapidated Greymouth.

If the track area is what you are referring to,  the club gave the council cash as well to help with the costs of removing old buildings, etc.  However,  the West Coast Riding for the Disabled has a good complex down the hill, the barn used to be borrowed from them for racetime stabling.  The arena is well set up and the place also holds riding lessons, dressage days, etc. with some keen local participation.

Boys' Brigade has an excellent building up the hill, overlooking the track.

So a valued and still valuable community asset.

[Chief Stipe]

7 minutes ago, the galah said:

So if the racing clubs in question don't want to help the racing industry then why the heck should the taxpayer or anyone else bother.

 

But the clubs in question are being penalised or more aptly described as SHAFTED!  The same clubs that have been helping the racing industry for years.  The same clubs that have given much more than they have taken.

Using the Westland Racing Club as an example - they were not asking for a handout just a fair cut of the whip!  They owned their own land and buildings and they had a significant amount of cash in the bank all on one or two race meetings a year!  I remember as kid being part of the working bees cleaning the stands and painting fences leading up to race days.  My father had a large panel beating business with 14 staff and on occasion lent his staff for some of the "big jobs" and if there was ever a problem with something that needed welding or fixing it was done in his workshop.  

I thought I would do some research on some other clubs.  Can some one tell me but is the Waverly Racing Club no more?  If so what has happened to their assets?

I see on the Incorporated Societies website that they are listed as being dissolved in February this year?  Is that correct or just a mistake on the website?  Sad if it is true.  They were only 7 months out from celebrating their 100 years as an incorporated club.  Although they started racing in 1871.  I wonder if they will interr Kiwi from his grave on the course.

 

[Chief Stipe]

Further to Waverley I've attached a copy of their last filed financial statement.  Note the income from cattle sales and cropping.  Very solvent and not costing the industry anything.

  

215477-accts_2019.pdf

[Chief Stipe]

 Now compare that to Taranaki - one of the favoured clubs.

Firstly their Covid-19 subsidy which they claimed for 35 employees:

[Chief Stipe]

Now Taranaki's Financial Statement to compare with Waverley.  Years of losses.  Note Taranaki doesn't own the land they are racing on.  Their 38 hectares is leased from the New Plymouth City Council for $365 a year.  No I haven't left any zeros off.  I guess there is some irony in that the land was gifted to the council in 1959.  Again their assets although valued at $5m are not worth much at all on the market.

 

 

BIZNET-DOCAMENCON-56270913.PDF

[Chief Stipe]

3 hours ago, Freda said:

The Hokitika Museum is a fascinating window on  history of the place.  I go in for a wander whenever I'm over there....sadly, won't be often now.

Do they still have the Cobb and Co. Stage coach?  My father stored that for years in the front of his Panel Beating workshop before handing it to the museum.  I used to play in it as a kid.

[Freda]

Can't recall seeing that.

The old photos of the sailing ships lined up down Gibson Quay are amazing,  the sailors of those times must have been pretty damned good to get the old girls across the bar.

[All The Aces]

23 minutes ago, Freda said:

Can't recall seeing that.

The old photos of the sailing ships lined up down Gibson Quay are amazing,  the sailors of those times must have been pretty damned good to get the old girls across the bar.

Others of us were pretty good at getting the young girls at the bar. 

[Freda]

5 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

Others of us were pretty good at getting the young girls at the bar. 

Oh, yeah....plenty of that on those circuits...plenty of down-to-earth drinking too, in the Railway  Hotel....Jimmy Melton and Garth Jackson after  a few Long Island Iced Teas....but that's telling tales so I'd better stop.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Freda

[the galah]

I guess the obvious reason some of these country clubs have been doing ok is because they only have one or two meetings a year.

Clubs that race many times a year obviously contribute more to the industry/stakeholders and are of greater importance. Had they only had one or two meetings then no doubt  they would be better off financially.

I understand the merit in arguing why dissolve clubs that have demonstrated they are financially sound. But if you are to argue that then surely you should be saying the bigger clubs with the majority of meetings must cut stakes,so as to remain financially sound, if that is the criteria you use..   

I  agree that it is not that wise if industry resources are invested in leased land in preference over industry owned land.

The Hokitika club does seem interesting. From what has been said on here earlier it seems they chose to  not to use their resources to help racing. Apparently it seems the local equestrian groups and the boys brigade have been the benefactors. To some that may seem to have been doing the right thing,to me its obvious they were run by people who put those interests ahead of the racing industry. 

I can tell you that i have seen first hand that those that run racecourses round the country will always put their own personal benefits above that of the industry. Ive come across too many clubs who will not allow horses to stable or train on their tracks,but are more than happy to lease their land to the brother of a committee member,or lease it to a committee man.   Not all clubs are like that,but if you don't think there many that run these clubs that receive personal benefits then you would not be telling the full story.

 

 

[Honestjohn]

Had a few good nights at the railway, burnt toast was a hoot. When keasty had it.

[Huey]

On 10/05/2020 at 11:34 AM, the galah said:

Well doesn't that mean the bulk funding methodoligy is flawed?  Are you saying a club gets funding irrespective of whether it can run a meeting at a profit/loss.?

Well in some situations there is no upside for the club at all, so of course this bulk funding has to exist they set it up that way. i.e A normal Industry take the club makes nothing on oncourse turnover so there is no upside for the club in any risks associated with the meeting.In fact the club would probably be better off holding jumpouts in this instance.

[Huey]

58 minutes ago, the galah said:

I guess the obvious reason some of these country clubs have been doing ok is because they only have one or two meetings a year.

Thats not the clubs fault in all cases, the industry chooses to do that mostly not the clubs.

Clubs that race many times a year obviously contribute more to the industry/stakeholders and are of greater importance. Had they only had one or two meetings then no doubt  they would be better off financially.

If they had only 1 or 2 meetings a year then they couldn't afford the full time staff they have(subsidised by the industry) for starters so they would have to depend on volunteers like the once or twice a year clubs. You're also understating what contribution the smaller clubs make to the industry by providing product(horses trained at no cost to the industry),holding trials etc

I understand the merit in arguing why dissolve clubs that have demonstrated they are financially sound. But if you are to argue that then surely you should be saying the bigger clubs with the majority of meetings must cut stakes,so as to remain financially sound, if that is the criteria you use..   

Its not always the clubs that set the stakes unless they add to them, they are usually set by the governing body i.e. check out July, Stakes like everything else should have been sorted out years ago and distributed in a more balanced manner imo

I  agree that it is not that wise if industry resources are invested in leased land in preference over industry owned land.

I agree its a real risk , mortgaging our future in fact, particularly with current leadership.

The Hokitika club does seem interesting. From what has been said on here earlier it seems they chose to  not to use their resources to help racing. Apparently it seems the local equestrian groups and the boys brigade have been the benefactors. To some that may seem to have been doing the right thing,to me its obvious they were run by people who put those interests ahead of the racing industry. 

I don't know why , but like the other smaller clubs they may have done that cause they have been treated appalling by the industry is my guess.

I can tell you that i have seen first hand that those that run racecourses round the country will always put their own personal benefits above that of the industry. Ive come across too many clubs who will not allow horses to stable or train on their tracks,but are more than happy to lease their land to the brother of a committee member,or lease it to a committee man.   Not all clubs are like that,but if you don't think there many that run these clubs that receive personal benefits then you would not be telling the full story.

Agree happens everywhere in all walks of life.

 

 

 

[Huey]

5 hours ago, the galah said:

The point i was trying to make is gifting land/or the lease of land back to the community does not mean the community always benefits. 

I used greymouth trotting club as  an example of that. Obviously you know a bit more about it than i,but a relation who lives in greymouth has told me about what it looks like today.Not just the trotting club, House owners with houses on the leased land had their rents substantially increased,some left,some no longer do any improvements. Pretty much the same happened not far from where i live about 5 years ago.

The Hokitika example you give is an interesting one. I wonder what that looks like now and if of any benefit to the locals?

I guess what your pointing out is for most racing clubs,their priorities are with the local community,over and above the racing industry .  Thus if they were to gift all assets/ or give up leases to local communities then racing will not benefit. 

So if the racing clubs in question don't want to help the racing industry then why the heck should the taxpayer or anyone else bother.

And if the viability of racing's future depends on an injection of funds that they won't get,then why would anyone currently involved expect to make any sort of living out of it.

So the answer is the racing industry doesn't have the desire to take the medicine that may save it.Everyone is interested in whats best for them,not the industry as a whole.

 

If you owned a house with 5 bedrooms and I rented out all of the rooms (I never contributed to R&M, nothing for the furniture ,nor insurance,electricity,telephone etc,  but in fact I made it as difficult as I possibly could for you to rent the rooms out ) to 5 other people and took the money for those rented rooms for myself and then I got someone else to tell you that you had to sell your house and give all the proceeds to me, how keen would you be in doing that?

[the galah]

7 minutes ago, Huey said:

 

If you owned a house with 5 bedrooms and I rented out all of the rooms (I never contributed to R&M, nothing for the furniture ,nor insurance,electricity,telephone etc,  but in fact I made it as difficult as I possibly could for you to rent the rooms out ) to 5 other people and took the money for those rented rooms for myself and then I got someone else to tell you that you had to sell your house and give all the proceeds to me, how keen would you be in doing that?

Not very happy,but if i knew the proceeds i gave you from the sale were to be used to keep me and my family in employment at a job that would not be there without the proceeds of  the sale,then i would begrudgingly understand why i had too. 

[Huey]

2 minutes ago, the galah said:

Not very happy,but if i knew the proceeds i gave you from the sale were to be used to keep me and my family in employment at a job that would not be there without the proceeds of  the sale,then i would begrudgingly understand why i had too. 

But you wouldn't have a job afterwards(just like those that train at the track wouldn't have a track to train their horse on) btw just to keep it real I'd spend the money on the first thing that came into my mind , like a match stick house I wouldn't be worried about really spending it wisely.

[the galah]

5 minutes ago, Huey said:

But you wouldn't have a job afterwards(just like those that train at the track wouldn't have a track to train their horse on) btw just to keep it real I'd spend the money on the first thing that came into my mind , like a match stick house I wouldn't be worried about really spending it wisely.

But i would have a job,i just have to travel further to work . Am i worried that you would spend the money wisely,you betcha.  Thats why i would want some sort of say in how the money i gave you was to be spent.

Edited May 11, 2020 by the galah

[Huey]

1 minute ago, the galah said:

But i would have a job,i just have to travel further to work . Am i worried that you would spend the money wisely,you betcha.  Thats why i would want some sort of say in how the money i gave you was to be spent.

You'd either have to travel to work (costing you more in time and expenses) or you'd have to relocate , for someone who couldn't give tuppence about you. Still keen?

[the galah]

Just now, Huey said:

You'd either have to travel to work (costing you more in time and expenses) or you'd have to relocate , for someone who couldn't give tuppence about you. Still keen?

I love my work so i will make the sacrifice to keep going,but some of my family won't. 

[Huey]

7 minutes ago, the galah said:

I love my work so i will make the sacrifice to keep going,but some of my family won't. 

Ok where is that house with 5 rooms you're giving me? ;0