Stakes

[curious]

4 hours ago, Freda said:

Which is why a dedicated jumping 'season'  or circuit for jumping days would be grand...but will never happen now.

In fact I'd be very surprised if the National is ever run down here again.

The principal club has sat on its hands and happily hosted the Nationals,  year on year,  but done nothing to foster or support the sport.

Remember riding at a point to point at Waimate back in the day. Crowd would have been bigger than most CJC ones these days and no betting.

[Freda]

1 hour ago, curious said:

Remember riding at a point to point at Waimate back in the day. Crowd would have been bigger than most CJC ones these days and no betting.

What about the amateur 'chase down there?   Busloads used to go down,  some stayed overnight at the local hostelry.  Great entertainment.

[curious]

Open Entry Races and R74 Races

Notwithstanding NZTR’s intention to introduce a R74 grade from 19 September it is important to clarify some of the misconceptions around the ‘Open Entry races’ that have been programmed since the resumption of racing post the COVID-19 Lockdown earlier this year.

·         Since the return to racing, significantly more horses have been given the opportunity to run than would have been the case if the orthodox rating bands had been applied. In the 16 meetings to the end of the 4th weekend in August 2019 there were 1388 total starters while in the 14 meetings to the end of the 4th weekend this year there have been 1837 starters (obviously a lot more races run this season so far).
 

·         Turnovers have been particularly strong due to the races being attractive to betting. This is a critical necessity as racing relaunched itself post Lockdown. Regardless of where they have been placed in the race-day order they have clearly out-performed other races with similar field sizes in terms of turnover.  Turnover is imperative to maintaining stakes at the levels we currently have. For example the last four races from Matamata on 22 August were: R88 (Opn Entry) = $247k, R90 (Opn Entry) = $281k, R65 = $197k, R86 (Opn Entry) = $277k. Turnover per starter is $6,114 higher for these races, which is 51% superior than Maiden and Rating 65 races at Feature meetings.
 

Horses have won from all places in handicap including from “out of the handicap.” The most recent examples were last weekend where a R68 horse (Times Ticking) won a R95 race at Awapuni while at Matamata a R71 (New York Jazz) horse won a R90 race and a R73 horse (Pursued) won a R86 race. These winners were re-rated 8pts, 6pts and 5pts

[Huey]

18 hours ago, curious said:

Open Entry Races and R74 Races

 

Notwithstanding NZTR’s intention to introduce a R74 grade from 19 September it is important to clarify some of the misconceptions around the ‘Open Entry races’ that have been programmed since the resumption of racing post the COVID-19 Lockdown earlier this year.

 

·         Since the return to racing, significantly more horses have been given the opportunity to run than would have been the case if the orthodox rating bands had been applied. In the 16 meetings to the end of the 4th weekend in August 2019 there were 1388 total starters while in the 14 meetings to the end of the 4th weekend this year there have been 1837 starters (obviously a lot more races run this season so far).
 

 

·         Turnovers have been particularly strong due to the races being attractive to betting. This is a critical necessity as racing relaunched itself post Lockdown. Regardless of where they have been placed in the race-day order they have clearly out-performed other races with similar field sizes in terms of turnover.  Turnover is imperative to maintaining stakes at the levels we currently have. For example the last four races from Matamata on 22 August were: R88 (Opn Entry) = $247k, R90 (Opn Entry) = $281k, R65 = $197k, R86 (Opn Entry) = $277k. Turnover per starter is $6,114 higher for these races, which is 51% superior than Maiden and Rating 65 races at Feature meetings.
 

 

Horses have won from all places in handicap including from “out of the handicap.” The most recent examples were last weekend where a R68 horse (Times Ticking) won a R95 race at Awapuni while at Matamata a R71 (New York Jazz) horse won a R90 race and a R73 horse (Pursued) won a R86 race. These winners were re-rated 8pts, 6pts and 5pts

Here is the thing these guys don't get. Most trainers want to place their horses themselves and take them through the grades. They also seem to have little understanding of the wastage these races cause or will cause if persisted with over a prolonged period of time. The betting on them is obviously better than maidens because form generates the turnover, that would be no different than if the were R72 races with decent sized fields or not. 

[Freda]

I actually don't have a problem with open entry....but, once entries are in and collated,  there needs to be a rational dividing-up of runners so that ratings are more on a par.

Throwing all in together isn't helpful going forward,  but neither is the situation that existed before, with 6 or 8 higher rated horses running for 30k and a glut of 65 and similar raters all squashed into one pile and many not getting a go at all.

[Huey]

9 minutes ago, Freda said:

I actually don't have a problem with open entry....but, once entries are in and collated,  there needs to be a rational dividing-up of runners so that ratings are more on a par.

Throwing all in together isn't helpful going forward,  but neither is the situation that existed before, with 6 or 8 higher rated horses running for 30k and a glut of 65 and similar raters all squashed into one pile and many not getting a go at all.

No but then you're just getting the rating bands in effect. I think the 72&82 grades should probably be combined and some thought given to better programming for the Open races. I think the ability of higher rated horses may become more prevalent as the tracks improve. 

Maybe a think tank amongst trainers as to how this can be achieved. 6 to 8 horse fields don't seem to be a problem in Australia & if realistic stake levels are set I don't see why they should be a problem here.

[nomates]

It's all well and good putting up 3 winners as the poster boys for lower rating horses winning these open races , but what about the hundreds that have run in them since racing re started that haven't .

Every dog has his day , not always .

As HUEY intimates , the heavy tracks are a great leveller .

[Freda]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

It's all well and good putting up 3 winners as the poster boys for lower rating horses winning these open races , but what about the hundreds that have run in them since racing re started that haven't .

Every dog has his day , not always .

As HUEY intimates , the heavy tracks are a great leveller .

Yes, they certainly are.    I was under the impression that the open-entry races were only to be persisted with during June/July...not going forward, in any case.

[nomates]

19 minutes ago, Freda said:

Yes, they certainly are.    I was under the impression that the open-entry races were only to be persisted with during June/July...not going forward, in any case.

They were always intended to be a short term solve to get racing underway after covid , because they weren't sure exactly sure how many horses were going to be up and running when racing resumed . The fact that they put out the above notice shows they know there are concerns amongst owners and trainers , but they are dismissing them by trying to show that their way works . As ever disrespectful to participants .

[Freda]

22 hours ago, nomates said:

They were always intended to be a short term solve to get racing underway after covid , because they weren't sure exactly sure how many horses were going to be up and running when racing resumed . The fact that they put out the above notice shows they know there are concerns amongst owners and trainers , but they are dismissing them by trying to show that their way works . As ever disrespectful to participants .

If there was a decent handicapping system, the disparity in ratings would, to a degree, be nullified by the weight differential.

But they're not, and therein lies the frustration among trainers.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Freda

[Pitman]

So what’s your suggestion re a handicapping system?

You must have one, you wouldn’t be criticising just for the sake of doing so 

[Freda]

You know perfectly well my thoughts on handicapping,  we have discussed it often.

The lack of a reasonable spread of weights has long been a problem IMO.

I remember racing when there was a decent spread - good horses carried a good horse's weight, and the lightweights got a significant chance at the bottom.  Not so now.

[Freda]

In the three higher-rated races at Riccarton on Saturday, there are rating spreads of 19, 22, and 27 points respectively...and all on 54 kgs.

How is that a 'handicap'  in the spirit of the designation ?      While racing was being re-introduced, there was a cap on ratings penalties to reflect this anomaly to a degree,  but it can't be carried on, or the whole point of ratings is nullified.    

[curious]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

You know perfectly well my thoughts on handicapping,  we have discussed it often.

The lack of a reasonable spread of weights has long been a problem IMO.

I remember racing when there was a decent spread - good horses carried a good horse's weight, and the lightweights got a significant chance at the bottom.  Not so now.

Something like this? Or similar to the UK system?

[Joe Bloggs]

3 hours ago, Freda said:

You know perfectly well my thoughts on handicapping,  we have discussed it often.

The lack of a reasonable spread of weights has long been a problem IMO.

I remember racing when there was a decent spread - good horses carried a good horse's weight, and the lightweights got a significant chance at the bottom.  Not so now.

When you have a small, boutique stable you are far more aware of weight spread, placing etc etc......IMO.........there are some attrition trainers who send em round regardless........

[Huey]

32 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

When you have a small, boutique stable you are far more aware of weight spread, placing etc etc......IMO.........there are some attrition trainers who send em round regardless........

Exactly it doesn't worry the likes of Uneasy because he has a big enough team to be advantaged by the system somewhere in the handicap.

Whats happens when you have something wins a couple of races then boom its in the Open races , how do you place it?

Can't be that hard to just run R72+R82 together, before the Covis meltdown the fields were that way inspired any way. 

[Pitman]

More rubbish, I think Freda knows me a lot better than you do!!

I live hour by hour and put probably more thinking than most as to where and when we race/place horses. Freda will back me up.

Besides answer this how many horses do you think we have in work at any time, not on our books but in training.

[Freda]

7 hours ago, curious said:

Something like this? Or similar to the UK system?

I can't actually remember back that far, C....but yeah, exactly like that.