Chief Stipe Please

[Pitman]

Humour me.

What is your investment in this industry

Do you own or rent a training property

Do you own transporters

Do you employ staff, how many

Do you own any racing stock

Do you put syndicates together

Do you own any stallions/mares

Do you sit on any committees

Do you educate young people

Do you do anything but criticize those that have skin in this game

[Chief Stipe]

Ring Tim.

[Chief Stipe]

47 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Humour me.

What is your investment in this industry

Do you own or rent a training property

Do you own transporters

Do you employ staff, how many

Do you own any racing stock

Do you put syndicates together

Do you own any stallions/mares

Do you sit on any committees

Do you educate young people

Do you do anything but criticize those that have skin in this game

Congratulations Pitty.  Presumably you do ALL of those things and dare I say are rewarded accordingly.

Don't confuse criticism with valid questions.  I've been around this industry long enough to have been suckered in more than once or twice by the glib sugar coated promises of those in charge.

Asking for some transparency and some information on the economic drivers of the AWT's is NOT criticism.  However the lack of transparency on a huge strategic decision that spends taxpayers money and will adversely affect a number of profitable racing clubs only serves to increase my level of cynicism.

If your own position on this "investment" can't stand up to scrutiny then if I were you I would seriously question my support for this "strategic decision"!  Because eventually you will have:

No investment left in the industry of any value.
No training property.
No transporters (you won't need them anyway as in your words YOU won't need to travel);
No staff.
No racing stock.
No syndicates.
No stallions/mares.
No committees to sit on except those selling off the confiscated assets.
No young people to educate.

By the way don't for a moment consider the people that helped YOU get to where you are today - the owners and the punters.  The owners who paid for the use of your transporter, training facilities and training expertise.  The owners that paid for all the slow horses as well as the small percentage of fast ones you trained.  Or the punters who paid for your % of the stakes that your decent horses won and who directly contributed to the acquisition of the assets that are now up for confiscation.  The same punters that would rather punt on a decent turf track rather than a sand based one from South Korea or North America or Riccarton.

The fact is Pitty we are getting NO ANSWERS to the questions being posed by not just myself but by a number of people who have significant skin in the game.

[nomates]

23 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Do you do anything but criticize those that have skin in this game

What has skin in the game got to do with asking legitimate questions around a lack of transparency , the lack of a feasibility study , a lack of costings for installation but also ongoing maintenance and the upgrades . Questions around where is the projections for how these tracks will increase revenue for the betterment of NZ racing , because why else would you put in 3 A/W tracks around NZ if they are not going to be a significant revenue gatherer for racing . 

I am going to assume you wont respond to any of this , because it appears that you have no concern around whether this is a fiscally prudent investment for NZ racing , short or long term , for you this is all about what works for you , you have made statements to effect . 

For your information i have had skin in the game for nearly 40 years , 30 odd horses raced plus much more , so i am allowed to ask the hard questions , and have , still waiting for answers to most . And i am allowed to criticize as well .

Never try to balance skin in the game against passion for the game , passion wins every time .

[Pitman]

I agree with most of what you say that is why I have attended the various meetings roadshows etc when others are either too busy, not interested or can’t be bothered

I believe we as a family are and have shown how truly passionate we are. 

In regard to costings I understand these are not yet finalised and the green light has not been activated 

I believe an AWT is a must for winter racing in this area We need some consistency of presentation of our racing Riccarton is the logical place

I don’t agree that Timaru should be the big loser, their track is very popular, fair and consistent The problem there is they have never encouraged trainers to set up base in recent years - Ashburton probably has.
 

I would prefer an AWT that will be available for racing training and trials than a Strathayr which would only be a racing surface

 

[Freda]

27 minutes ago, Pitman said:

I agree with most of what you say that is why I have attended the various meetings roadshows etc when others are either too busy, not interested or can’t be bothered

I believe we as a family are and have shown how truly passionate we are. 

In regard to costings I understand these are not yet finalised and the green light has not been activated 

I believe an AWT is a must for winter racing in this area We need some consistency of presentation of our racing Riccarton is the logical place

I don’t agree that Timaru should be the big loser, their track is very popular, fair and consistent The problem there is they have never encouraged trainers to set up base in recent years - Ashburton probably has.
 

I would prefer an AWT that will be available for racing training and trials than a Strathayr which would only be a racing surface

 

The trouble is, Pitty, that despite the stakeholders' support to retain Timaru, it does seem that it will be 'for the chop' once the AWT gets going.

Ashburton is the preferred option.

[Chief Stipe]

30 minutes ago, Pitman said:

I agree with most of what you say that is why I have attended the various meetings roadshows etc when others are either too busy, not interested or can’t be bothered

When ever I have had the opportunity to attend NZTR/NZRB "roadshows" I have.  Getting to Riccarton or Awapuni at the moment just isn't feasible at the moment for a number of reasons.  However what I will say that all information events that I have attended have been very disappointing.  The level of analysis and sound tactical/strategic planning was substandard to say the least.  Sadly and frustratingly I haven't seen any changes following the Messara report nor the Working Group nor from McKenzie's RITA.

30 minutes ago, Pitman said:

In regard to costings I understand these are not yet finalised and the green light has not been activated 

Isn't that a warning sign Pitty?  Cambridge's is nearly finished!  Bit late now to do some rigorous analysis.

30 minutes ago, Pitman said:

I would prefer an AWT that will be available for racing training and trials than a Strathayr which would only be a racing surface

Does training on an AWT fit a horse for racing on Turf?  

If a training surface is a big issue why has this not been addressed by CJC before now?

Why not put in a smaller AWT like they have at major tracks in Victoria?  E.g. Flemington. 

Those centres with a Strathayr track still run trials and even jumpouts on them.

In my opinion I don’t think an AWT will suit your style of training Pitty.  I also think you are being misled when you think that the surface will be consistent.  The consistency is heavily reliant on day to day maintenance.

That is one of the benefits of a well maintained turf track - it offers a natural buffer to the what the elements throw at it.

The irony is Pitty that will end up with an expensive high maintenance AWT and STILL HAVE your main race track requiring attention and investment.  I doubt the AWT will generate sufficient extra revenue to facilitate that.  It may actually suck up more resources than it generates.

So where the hell is the financial plan?  If it is so damn good then why hasn't it been published?  You can't argue commercial sensitivity!  

PS: I admire the Pitman passion and commitment to the industry.  I love it whenever you cross the Strait and serve it up at Trentham.  BUT if anyone can get the answers that the rest of us want then it is you.  You have that respect and weight.  

"The financials haven't been finalised" just does not cut it.

[Joe Bloggs]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

What has skin in the game got to do with asking legitimate questions around a lack of transparency , the lack of a feasibility study , a lack of costings for installation but also ongoing maintenance and the upgrades . Questions around where is the projections for how these tracks will increase revenue for the betterment of NZ racing , because why else would you put in 3 A/W tracks around NZ if they are not going to be a significant revenue gatherer for racing . 

I am going to assume you wont respond to any of this , because it appears that you have no concern around whether this is a fiscally prudent investment for NZ racing , short or long term , for you this is all about what works for you , you have made statements to effect . 

For your information i have had skin in the game for nearly 40 years , 30 odd horses raced plus much more , so i am allowed to ask the hard questions , and have , still waiting for answers to most . And i am allowed to criticize as well .

Never try to balance skin in the game against passion for the game , passion wins every time .

You absolute champion, where were you when we were looking for a semblance of normality and foresight when we lived our 3 year stint in NZ.....all we encountered was apathy, stupidity and self interest......if the majority had the intelligence and passion you have, then Petone and Parnell wouldn't have got away with what they have......good luck to you, keep on keeping on and I hope you do well with whatever.......Best.....Joe.

[Pitman]

As I have said before I had a good talk with Jon Gosden when at Royal Ascot. He supports polytrack racing and training and he is one of the best

When we had Enzo’s Lad at Hong Kong and Newmarket I saw first hand the use of various tracks. Something most who comment on AWT’s here have not been able to do.
 

Chief can you put up Gosden’s record on AWT and Turf again then we can see his support for both

[Joe Bloggs]

Ive seen a lot more AWT than you as I owned and operated a global travel marketing company, lucky enough to spend many weeks in the UK and ASIA........many of the trainers I got to know hate the bloody things, just because John Gosden likes them doesn't make him the Messiah........

They have saved or prolonged the lives of many average gallopers, but long term they are a waste of owners money [remember trainers pass on costs]  and inevitably respiratory problem arise as the bloody things fall apart.......ask the trainers up at Toowoomba why they uprooted the bloody debacle there........ask, ask, and learn from VICTIMS.

[Chief Stipe]

34 minutes ago, Pitman said:

As I have said before I had a good talk with Jon Gosden when at Royal Ascot. He supports polytrack racing and training and he is one of the best

 

But he doesn't actually walk the walk does he?  Have you actually looked at his stats?  He still races predominantly on Turf.  Also it isn't exactly comparing apples with apples is it?  I doubt there would be any trainer in New Zealand that wouldn't want to train at Newmarket.  As I pointed out in another thread in response to your Godsen comment the turf training facilities available at Newmarket far out weigh the artificial surfaces.

34 minutes ago, Pitman said:

When we had Enzo’s Lad at Hong Kong and Newmarket I saw first hand the use of various tracks. Something most who comment on AWT’s here have not been able to do.

Even Newmarket doesn't have a 16m wide 2000m AWT training track.  Also what are the economics of training at Newmarket?  There are 2,000 horses trained there and over 70 trainers stabled there!

The Newmarket Training Grounds include an array of facilities for training Thoroughbred racehorses, on turf and artificial surfaces, unequalled anywhere in the world. Comprising of 2,500 acres, the Training Grounds include 50 miles of turf gallops and over 14 miles of artificial tracks. They are used on a daily basis by over 3,000 horses in the care of over 70 trainers. The Training Grounds are owned and managed by Jockey Club Estates.

[Chief Stipe]

A third of Godsen's starts over the last 5 years have been on AW tracks - note that includes ALL AWT's not just Polytracks.
Interesting though the AW tracks only contributed 9% of the stakes that he has won i.e. 91% of the stakes won were on Turf tracks!

England has 6 AWT's!  3 are Polytrack.  Newmarket's the Jockey Club has only ONE out of 14 racecourses.  

[Chief Stipe]

 

[Huey]

53 minutes ago, Freda said:

The trouble is, Pitty, that despite the stakeholders' support to retain Timaru, it does seem that it will be 'for the chop' once the AWT gets going.

Ashburton is the preferred option.

Exactly , it'll only take them to rejig the calendar to give it the kick to touch they want to. Many of us have seen this before, this is not just about an AWT its about the future of many venues and interest in the sport also.

The current Administration have shown they don't care a stuff about any of the local country venues etc. this will only be hastened by the setup of this track, racing is dying off in the provinces at an alarming rate, due to poor policy and mismanagement and a CEO hell bent on looking like he is doing something. 

I wouldn't mind the track if it was financially feasible and didn't have a negative impact on any of the other areas that wish to race and prosper , but it will be used as the be all and end all make no bones about that.

[Chief Stipe]

If Trials and Training are the issue why not put in a smaller AWT?  How many trials in the South Island have more than 6 horses in them?  

Put in a smaller AWT for training and jumpouts and spend the money that's left over to fix the turf track!  

[nomates]

26 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

You absolute champion, where were you when we were looking for a semblance of normality and foresight when we lived our 3 year stint in NZ.....all we encountered was apathy, stupidity and self interest......if the majority had the intelligence and passion you have, then Petone and Parnell wouldn't have got away with what they have......good luck to you, keep on keeping on and I hope you do well with whatever.......Best.....Joe.

Unfortunately Joe the question i and others pose aren't just relevant around Riccarton or even The Cambridge and Awapuni tracks , they are bigger questions for NZTR . Why are they jumping into them without due diligence and a full and complete financial study about the track costs , as well as what prosperity or not they can achieve for NZ racing . They are playing with the future of NZ racing so they should have every base covered and have answers to every question , not to reply to questions , but to give themselves a surety that proceeding down this path is the correct decision .

Aside from that , 2 of the clubs involved are proposing to take on huge debt to finance their share of the projects , one of these clubs is already up to their necks in debt . When they don't even know actual figures about maintenance costs and whether revenues can cover these costs , why would they place themselves into such a precarious position . Are members involved in these decisions . Do they have a cost for the track fees once these tracks are commissioned , to ensure that owners understand them and that they are prepared to pay them and nor remove their horses . Have the clubs talked to the owners that horses trained at their track .

There is no comeback if these fail financially , we are broke , there will be no more handouts from govt . This is a huge gamble in my opinion , especially when there are other options that give us some surety . We need to be on a much sounder financial position before we start gambling on ideas that give no surety of reward .

I dread if horses start getting injured or worse . This is a slippery slope .

[Huey]

4 minutes ago, nomates said:

Unfortunately Joe the question i and others pose aren't just relevant around Riccarton or even The Cambridge and Awapuni tracks , they are bigger questions for NZTR . Why are they jumping into them without due diligence and a full and complete financial study about the track costs , as well as what prosperity or not they can achieve for NZ racing . They are playing with the future of NZ racing so they should have every base covered and have answers to every question , not to reply to questions , but to give themselves a surety that proceeding down this path is the correct decision .

Aside from that , 2 of the clubs involved are proposing to take on huge debt to finance their share of the projects , one of these clubs is already up to their necks in debt . When they don't even know actual figures about maintenance costs and whether revenues can cover these costs , why would they place themselves into such a precarious position . Are members involved in these decisions . Do they have a cost for the track fees once these tracks are commissioned , to ensure that owners understand them and that they are prepared to pay them and nor remove their horses . Have the clubs talked to the owners that horses trained at their track .

There is no comeback if these fail financially , we are broke , there will be no more handouts from govt . This is a huge gamble in my opinion , especially when there are other options that give us some surety . We need to be on a much sounder financial position before we start gambling on ideas that give no surety of reward .

I dread if horses start getting injured or worse . This is a slippery slope .

Not only that but a number of those proposing the track be installed at all costs have no skin in the game as Pitman puts it. Many can and will just walk away from the industry without a care in the world.

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, nomates said:

The Cambridge

The Cambridge Jockey Club have done really well and outsmarted everyone!  They were financial enough to fund their own AWT yet managed to twist Winnie's arm and get a taxpayer benefit handout!  What's more they suddenly went from being just a training facility to now being a racing venue!!!!!  I thought the goal of the Mesara report was to reduce the number of racecourses NOT increase them!

[The Centaur]

On 18/09/2020 at 10:18 AM, Chief Stipe said:

The Cambridge Jockey Club have done really well and outsmarted everyone!  They were financial enough to fund their own AWT yet managed to twist Winnie's arm and get a taxpayer benefit handout!  What's more they suddenly went from being just a training facility to now being a racing venue!!!!!  I thought the goal of the Mesara report was to reduce the number of racecourses NOT increase them!

One shouldn't forget the valuation increases of racing properties around Cambridge.

As a source of revenue perhaps NZTR could set up a national real estate division for property sales.

[The Centaur]

On 18/09/2020 at 7:28 AM, Pitman said:

Humour me.

What is your investment in this industry

Do you own or rent a training property

Do you own transporters

Do you employ staff, how many

Do you own any racing stock

Do you put syndicates together

Do you own any stallions/mares

Do you sit on any committees

Do you educate young people

Do you do anything but criticize those that have skin in this game

I would say that Chief has put far more into the game than many of the categories you have mentioned. I note you don't mention journalists.

There seems an old school attitude to dismiss online providers yet old school journalists who might just write the odd article per week are revered by the participants. It took years before the "old school" accepted the internet. Firstly they thought of it as an outlet for porn, then a residence for geeks then finally to appease their ego they prided on their kids becoming proficient in its use.

The beauty of racing is that there are so many avenues for involvement. However suddenly having a 1/100th syndicate share in a Group 1 winner doesn't make that person an expert overnight.