How does the Ozzie harness rating system work??

[Brodie]

Does anyone know how the Australian harness rating system works?

I take it  that NR means No Rating!

When these races are raced, it seems a crazy way of programming a meeting.

When you look through the horses records, there are non winners racing against horses that have won plenty of races and plenty of stake money!!!!!

Why would well tried maidens even contemplate lining up against horses that nave won multiple races??
There are heaps of these NR races over there for some reason!

[Karrots]

4 hours ago, Brodie said:

Does anyone know how the Australian harness rating system works?

I take it  that NR means No Rating!

When these races are raced, it seems a crazy way of programming a meeting.

When you look through the horses records, there are non winners racing against horses that have won plenty of races and plenty of stake money!!!!!

Why would well tried maidens even contemplate lining up against horses that nave won multiple races??
There are heaps of these NR races over there for some reason!

Rusty, Grammalite, Davis or Dougie? (1 of the later 2 is based in Oz, I remember reading a comment), maybe 1 of those named here might be able to answer? I do recall seeing that fillies or mares and 3 year olds and juniors get concessions eg minus a certain amount of points, when they start off their rating I think ... but don't quote me on it. other than that Im of no help sorry B. 

[Dougie]

9 hours ago, Karrots said:

Rusty, Grammalite, Davis or Dougie? (1 of the later 2 is based in Oz, I remember reading a comment), maybe 1 of those named here might be able to answer? I do recall seeing that fillies or mares and 3 year olds and juniors get concessions eg minus a certain amount of points, when they start off their rating I think ... but don't quote me on it. other than that Im of no help sorry B. 

Nah no idea, will bet on trotters in Victoria but that's about, QLD is known for dodgy drivers and maybe the term "cheats on seats" came from there - some TAB meetings have races with only $3500 prize money and I'd be surprised if winning one of those would be the same points wise as winning a $10,000 maiden but who the hell knows.

Not long ago I recall Alexy racing and another horse was having its's 8th start and as we know Alexy is close to the 300 mark with 10 wins.

[Davis]

14 hours ago, Brodie said:

Does anyone know how the Australian harness rating system works?

I take it  that NR means No Rating!

When these races are raced, it seems a crazy way of programming a meeting.

When you look through the horses records, there are non winners racing against horses that have won plenty of races and plenty of stake money!!!!!

Why would well tried maidens even contemplate lining up against horses that nave won multiple races??
There are heaps of these NR races over there for some reason!

http://www.harnesslink.com/News/Update-on-national-ratings-based-handicapping-system

Google has the answer...

[Gammalite]

5 hours ago, Dougie said:

Nah no idea, will bet on trotters in Victoria but that's about, QLD is known for dodgy drivers and maybe the term "cheats on seats" came from there - some TAB meetings have races with only $3500 prize money and I'd be surprised if winning one of those would be the same points wise as winning a $10,000 maiden but who the hell knows.

QLD has some excellent drivers here Dougie!!, Grant Dixon , Shane Graham and Pete McMullen could mix it with Blair O and Dunn quite easily. Nat Ras did all her 'Learning to Drive" here in QLD and with Blacks A Fake (4 x Interdominions and a close second) and then went to Allstars and is near World's Best??

Pete McMullen ,has three sisters who drive with great Aplomb as well (Danielle, Narissa, and Taleah)and would go around in 20-30 races each, each week. 

Redcliffe race twice a week for about 5k per race and Albion 3 times per week for much higher prizemoney of 6k + weekdays and 12k+ Saturday nights.

ALL horse in training can get a start somewhere , and the ratings done on current form , so horses that won races last year and all the years before that,  don't have to take on Free-for-allers each week. Brilliant !!! everyone gets a chance. and a race !!

One thing I DON'T like is that many Trainers in OZ put the training Licence in their wifes/Partners? associates name so they can get FREE-LANCE drives when they Feel like it .

Pete McMullen has a great team of horses , BUT they all are in his wife Chantel Turpins Name as Trainer!!!. lol....... so is often driving against horses he trains with his wife effectively. ????   that is sort of cheating I have to agree. happens in Sydney too Luke Mc using the Cross kiwi blokes name, and Robbie Morris too. And Shane Graham uses his partner Vicki Rasmussen's name as trainer, so he can drive others. So I agree that does make them a 'cheat on seat' to a degree. He actually has just came back from 2 years disqualification so at least the stewards are acting. (Grant Dixon's wife did one year recently DQ)

[Brodie]

Gammalite, you have to be kidding if you think any of your Ozzie drivers are anywhere near as good as Blair or Dexter!

None of the 3 you mentioned are in the same class as our better drivers in NZ!

Yes they may be good in Oz but wouldnt be as successful in NZ.

You only have to see what Dexter is doing in the USA and Blair would be doing the same if he was over there.

McMullen and Co. are just not in the same league 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Brodie

[Gammalite]

13 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Gammalite, you have to be kidding if you think any of your Ozzie drivers are anywhere near as good as Blair or Dexter!

None of the 3 you mentioned are in the same class as our better drivers in NZ!

Yes they may be good in Oz but wouldnt be as successful in NZ.

You only have to see what Dexter is doing in the USA and Blair would be doing the same if he was over there.

McMullen and Co. are just not in the same league 

 

Love your Patriotism there !! that is excellent you are supporting your home product , and Dexter is doing amazing.

I'm more open minded than you in seeing what horseman are capable of.

(Herlihy and Owen Purdon were my favs in younger days ! outstanding young drivers)

SURE!  Blair and Dexter can jump on horses "unfamiliar to themselves' and get it to perform well.  (main criteria for top driver)

But what makes you say Pete McMullen with 260 wins last season and Grant Dixon  with 230 wins can't do that ?? 

They drive A LOT of races mate, so I'm not kidding when I say they could mix it with your blokes fine ?

What do they do so different, that makes them another League ?. Natalie Rasmussen was here in Queensland many years and performed admirably (she drove many many horses, not just Black's A Fake) , when married to Grant. Now she is near best in the world . seemed to cope with Blair and Dexter ok ???

[theshu]

Cris Alford,Greg Sugars would hold their own in any country in the world.Actually Greg Sugars was a leading driver in the USA  before he came back to Australia. Peter McMullen.definately up there as a top driver.,Not too sure about G Dixon, I personally think he is a better horse trainer then a driver.  Just my personal opinion.

[Gammalite]

14 minutes ago, theshu said:

Cris Alford,Greg Sugars would hold their own in any country in the world.Actually Greg Sugars was a leading driver in the USA  before he came back to Australia. Peter McMullen.definately up there as a top driver.,Not too sure about G Dixon, I personally think he is a better horse trainer then a driver.  Just my personal opinion.

Yes , we are spoilt rotten with some fantastic drivers over the years. Chris Alford did win the Interdominion at Christchurch one year so seem to handle the NZ conditions ok. Grant doesn't do many 'catch' drives at all , as has a runner in most races , so you are probably right and that might take him out of the equation. (Don't tell Brodie heheh) He did win the National Driver's title in Tasmania one year recently, on Poxy slow ones!, so he can jump on 'unknowns' and do ok as well though. lol

Pete Mcmullen, Chris Alford, and Greg Sugars can all get 'Slow" ones to lift the last bit, and get the money still in low class races. something that has made Blair Orange and Dexter D part of the  elite as well.

Mark P and Nat and AGH there , and with McCarthy (NSW) and Hall Jnr (WA) and your old ex-pat mate A Butt over in Oz, they all seem to read races very well , but have the Stock Drives To Do It ?  Plenty of wins between both these lots ! amazing results.

 

[Karrots]

Great info, link and convo, those who have kindly come in and joined. Rusty has gone MIA. But thats all good. I'm keeping my eye out now for Ladies in Red after the Rusty tip. 

Tuning now into Gavel House 👀

Adios Amigos/Amigas for now 😃

K

[hunterthepunter]

2 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Yes , we are spoilt rotten with some fantastic drivers over the years. Chris Alford did win the Interdominion at Christchurch one year so seem to handle the NZ conditions ok. Grant doesn't do many 'catch' drives at all , as has a runner in most races , so you are probably right and that might take him out of the equation. (Don't tell Brodie heheh) He did win the National Driver's title in Tasmania one year recently, on Poxy slow ones!, so he can jump on 'unknowns' and do ok as well though. lol

Pete Mcmullen, Chris Alford, and Greg Sugars can all get 'Slow" ones to lift the last bit, and get the money still in low class races. something that has made Blair Orange and Dexter D part of the  elite as well.

Mark P and Nat and AGH there , and with McCarthy (NSW) and Hall Jnr (WA) and your old ex-pat mate A Butt over in Oz, they all seem to read races very well , but have the Stock Drives To Do It ?  Plenty of wins between both these lots ! amazing results.

 

gammalite how is ex kiwi trainer Frank Bennet going over there?

[Gammalite]

15 minutes ago, hunterthepunter said:

gammalite how is ex kiwi trainer Frank Bennet going over there?

Frank and wife Karen have small team of trotting gait horses still, and go around in the midweeks mainly. still drives them himself.

Another kiwi trainer of trotters Richard Brosnan (won the Interdominion with NO RESPONSE 79) still going around with trotters in country Victoria. His son Emmett drives them but only average results these days.

 

 

[Brodie]

Gammalite, yes you are correct you have some very good drivers and some shockers just like NZ does!

Pete McMullen may well win a lot of races but he also drives a lot of horses and to be fair most are far inferior to NZ horses!
If NZ didnt send so many over your racing would not  be as good as it is!

What I do remember is Pete McMullans fathers horses that he drove used to pull very nard and be as weak as piss!

He would be swinging on them at the 400m and then just run out of energy!

As for Natalie Rasmussen, she is a very skilled horsewoman, bjut you also have to take into account the quality of the horses she has been driving!

Interesting debate but Dex and Blair are out of the box!
 

 

[Mehe]

I think both countries have good drivers 

And how good would the Ozzies be if they were driving the same horses as the kiwis do 

I dont think the quality of horse makes the driver 

And also nat was driving good horses before she step foot here

[Brodie]

10 hours ago, Mehe said:

I think both countries have good drivers 

And how good would the Ozzies be if they were driving the same horses as the kiwis do 

I dont think the quality of horse makes the driver 

And also nat was driving good horses before she step foot here

If you are driver a better class of horse, it is going to make your UDR so much better.

Even if you are a good driver but driving duds, then you arent driving many winners.

[hunterthepunter]

11 hours ago, Mehe said:

I think both countries have good drivers 

And how good would the Ozzies be if they were driving the same horses as the kiwis do 

I dont think the quality of horse makes the driver 

And also nat was driving good horses before she step foot here

Perth trainer trev Warwick had saying your got to learn how to drive the bad horses before you drive the good ones 

[Rangatira]

3 hours ago, hunterthepunter said:

Perth trainer trev Warwick had saying your got to learn how to drive the bad horses before you drive the good ones 

trained and drove starships older half bro to win a wa pacing cup

[Mehe]

8 hours ago, Brodie said:

If you are driver a better class of horse, it is going to make your UDR so much better.

Even if you are a good driver but driving duds, then you arent driving many winners.

Yes maybe so but you sort of implied all the Ozzie horses are not much chop 

So that would mean the Ozzie drivers would have the same sort of UDR wouldn't it

 

[hunterthepunter]

7 hours ago, Rangatira said:

trained and drove starships older half bro to win a wa pacing cup

our Ian Mac

[Brodie]

14 hours ago, Mehe said:

Yes maybe so but you sort of implied all the Ozzie horses are not much chop 

So that would mean the Ozzie drivers would have the same sort of UDR wouldn't it

 

Most of the Ozzie horses are not much chop!

NZ horses are far superior Mehe, you only have to see what average horses here can do in Oz!

The better drivers tend to get the better drives and therefore far easier to win races.

Racing in NZ is of a far higher standard!

[Gammalite]

5 hours ago, Brodie said:

Most of the Ozzie horses are not much chop!

NZ horses are far superior Mehe, you only have to see what average horses here can do in Oz!

The better drivers tend to get the better drives and therefore far easier to win races.

Racing in NZ is of a far higher standard!

A very 'general' statement Brodie, just after you finished grizzling about all the stand failures, Allstars winning everything, etc in NZ these days ..... lol

What standard is it you Speak of ? 

Doesn't it mean that the aussies are the better horsemen/women by improving your stock ? esp to race at top level ?

Recent years saw Kerryn Manning knock off Allstars with Arden Rooney and McCarthy with Tiger Tara nearly do the same in NZ CUP with ex-pats nzers that were going average there.  

Tiger Tara, Tornado Valley , I'm the mighty Quinn , all winning Interdominions amongst a host of Aussies . pretty high standard.!!

Lets have a quick look at the decades.

1960's HALWES and FIRST LEE cleaned up in Auckland Interdom. CARDIGAN BAY best in world though .     points to NZ

1970's YOUNG QUINN wins allsorts including miracle mile. PURE STEEL , KOALA KING , PALEFACE A win 50 each  . points shared.

1980's  Lightning BLUE wins Chch Interdom and NZ cup. SAN SIMEON, MOARI"S IDOL , 2 of the best ever . POPULAR ALM(goat)

             STEEL JAW takes NZ cup as well, GAMMALITE takes Auck Cup and Inter x 2  (what a LEGEND !!!!!!)    points to OZ.

1990's Vin Knight wins everything, then dies. GOLDEN REIGN wins Chch , OUR SIR VANCELOT wins three interdom , points to OZ.

2000's I'm the Mighty Quinn , Blacks a FAKE that many Interdom's I have lost count .....LOL   points to Oz.

2010-2020  The era of the ALLSTARS >>> LAZARUS (goat), SMOLDA etc and a thousand others!   points to NZ.

So the last decade NZ has zoomed to the top !! and you didn't stop grizzling about it !  (tongue in cheek) lol. About to end????

so the 6 Decade Brodie  'Far higher Standard' Score is Oz     3  1/2     to      NZ    2  1/2   !   well done to All .

 

 

 

[Brodie]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

A very 'general' statement Brodie, just after you finished grizzling about all the stand failures, Allstars winning everything, etc in NZ these days ..... lol

What standard is it you Speak of ? 

Doesn't it mean that the aussies are the better horsemen/women by improving your stock ? esp to race at top level ?

Recent years saw Kerryn Manning knock off Allstars with Arden Rooney and McCarthy with Tiger Tara nearly do the same in NZ CUP with ex-pats nzers that were going average there.  

Tiger Tara, Tornado Valley , I'm the mighty Quinn , all winning Interdominions amongst a host of Aussies . pretty high standard.!!

Lets have a quick look at the decades.

1960's HALWES and FIRST LEE cleaned up in Auckland Interdom. CARDIGAN BAY best in world though .     points to NZ

1970's YOUNG QUINN wins allsorts including miracle mile. PURE STEEL , KOALA KING , PALEFACE A win 50 each  . points shared.

1980's  Lightning BLUE wins Chch Interdom and NZ cup. SAN SIMEON, MOARI"S IDOL , 2 of the best ever . POPULAR ALM(goat)

             STEEL JAW takes NZ cup as well, GAMMALITE takes Auck Cup and Inter x 2  (what a LEGEND !!!!!!)    points to OZ.

1990's Vin Knight wins everything, then dies. GOLDEN REIGN wins Chch , OUR SIR VANCELOT wins three interdom , points to OZ.

2000's I'm the Mighty Quinn , Blacks a FAKE that many Interdom's I have lost count .....LOL   points to Oz.

2010-2020  The era of the ALLSTARS >>> LAZARUS (goat), SMOLDA etc and a thousand others!   points to NZ.

So the last decade NZ has zoomed to the top !! and you didn't stop grizzling about it !  (tongue in cheek) lol. About to end????

so the 6 Decade Brodie  'Far higher Standard' Score is Oz     3  1/2     to      NZ    2  1/2   !   well done to All .

 

 

 

Gammalite, the Ozzies know that NZ horses are better than their home bred ones, that is why they buy them!

We dont buy racing horses from Oz basically because we know on the whole they arent worth the effort to race in NZ.

Week in and week out we see ex NZ horses lining up in OZ in quick time from leaving NZ and bolt in.

Arden Rooney and Tiger Tara were very good horses already made in NZ, and thrived in Oz, where the racing is easier.

Fact is that the AllStars horses and other NZ trainers that send horses over cleanup over there.

Yes you have some good horses but on the whole, most that run around on your saucer tracks wouldnt be competitive in NZ!

It is great that Ozzie has inferior horses as it always gives a market for the Kiwis to sell their horses to.

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Brodie

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Brodie said:

Gammalite, the Ozzies know that NZ horses are better than their home bred ones, that is why they buy them!

We dont buy racing horses from Oz basically because we know on the whole they arent worth the effort to race in NZ.

Week in and week out we see ex NZ horses lining up in OZ in quick time from leaving NZ and bolt in.

Arden Rooney and Tiger Tara were very good horses already made in NZ, and thrived in Oz, where the racing is easier.

Fact is that the AllStars horses and other NZ trainers that send horses over cleanup over there.

Yes you have some good horses but on the whole, most that run around on your saucer tracks wouldnt be competitive in NZ!

It is great that Ozzie has inferior horses as it always gives a market for the Kiwis to sell their horses to.

 

Brodie , You have changed from your original statement . this statement is about the fine quality of horse NZ produces.

 

9 hours ago, Brodie said:

Racing in NZ is of a far higher standard!

Here is the original declaration YOU made. If as many of your home bred champions are racing in Australia , than obviously  this Statement is INCORRECT. The standard of racing and the quality of Horse must be better here. Yes? You see it week in week out as you say?

Tonight a $450 ,000 pace goes around in Perth , 7 of the 12 starters are very nice kiwi bred horses !  good luck .and good racing 

Just now at Albion the 'Poxy" slow ones are racing today. The better ones race Tomorrow night.  there were 5 kiwi breds and they went 1.54.1 race in 5!!!   It is bloody hard to win races mate.   No Easy races as you say . Do they have EASY races in NZ?

Our very best Oz bred is LOCHINVAR ART at the current time. Twice beat your current very best SELF ASSURED into second  in his last 2 Aus starts last summer around the 'saucer' at Melton in 1.48.6 . Fair dinkum hiking ?  and The Chariots of Fire at Menangle in 1.50.1 ....

Maybe Aus has the better standard of racing ?   

[Brodie]

Na!

[Gammalite]

7 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Na!

haha good for you patriotic man!  hehe You do realise the standards will slip without Allstars ?  hehe couple more Quinellas tonight I see, they perform at a very high Standard?.

You'll have to fight VERY HARD to keep them in business to maintain these high standards of racing? , like you guys did to remove the starter in the South Island to improve your 'Standards of Racing" !! good work.

Hey did you know Mr Pyers drove for quite a while in QLD back in the day? sending him home after failing here, may of improved our standards in Oz ? lol  Stewards there have addressed the issue to keep your standards up high.