Race Fixing v A Losing drive

[Gammalite]

Race Fixing is a Very,Very,very serious charge. Match fixing is a CRIMINAL offence. YOU ARE ARRESTED these days.

You can't just watch a video of a race and accuse people of this very serious charge just because they lost.

Most competitors lose in every race as you know ? It's a question of whether the driver/rider gives their mount / drive every chance to win.

Usually RACE /MATCH fixing involves a financial windfall for the parties involved in the incident. 

Famously the Gleeson brothers at Harold Park SYD in the 90's fixed races with their horse losing for 12-20k gain. (They got 100 years DQ at the time) and wrecked the image of harness racing forever.

In December 2017 in QLD, Vicki Rasmussen, Shane Graham and Leonard Cain (later exonerated) were 'Arrested' for a race FIX incident earlier in Winter that year. Some schmuck has 3k on the winner, Leonard had to give up the lead in the race cheaply to let Shane Lead and win. Gosh they even gave Trainer Vicki a year out for that.... oh dear. very sad. Our best driver in QLD was on the sidelines for more than 2 years. Thankfully Shane is back in action this year. betting and phone records were used as evidence.

People watching AMAZING DREAM getting beaten narrowly in a video and calling that RACE FIXING is kinda funny really. Had every chance to win .

If you still call that race Fixing (and you have some evidence apart from watching a video and not agreeing with the race plan) CALL the POLICE and have them deal with it.

 

[Noodlum]

51 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

If you still call that race Fixing (and you have some evidence apart from watching a video and not agreeing with the race plan) CALL the POLICE and have them deal with it.

Would we then have INCA-2 and another $10m+ thrown down the big for no result?

[Gammalite]

51 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

Would we then have INCA-2 and another $10m+ thrown down the big for no result?

A 'No result' is a 'Good result' Noodlum !  means there is no provable criminal activity happening possibly.? good honest kiwi's .

I was frowning upon the term RACE FIXING being used so frequently , because of the true criminal meaning.

'Bad Losing drive'... a much better term to use lol.....  something we can use most races ?  lol.......

[Rangatira]

6 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

A 'No result' is a 'Good result' Noodlum !  means there is no provable criminal activity happening possibly.? good honest kiwi's .

really really tough on the pockets of the wrongly accused 

[Gammalite]

3 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

really really tough on the pockets of the wrongly accused 

Can they try for Defamation compensation ? if they were named publicly?

[Noodlum]

16 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

A 'No result' is a 'Good result' Noodlum !  means there is no provable criminal activity happening possibly.? good honest kiwi's .

I was frowning upon the term RACE FIXING being used so frequently , because of the true criminal meaning.

'Bad Losing drive'... a much better term to use lol.....  something we can use most races ?  lol.......

Well people are quick to try and bring the successful down by casting unfounded aspersions.  Many don’t have a bloody clue about driving a harness horse!

[Gammalite]

11 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

Well people are quick to try and bring the successful down by casting unfounded aspersions.  Many don’t have a bloody clue about driving a harness horse!

Driving tactics always under scrutiny I guess, especially in the Group racing so all your readers are seeing Mark and Nat right in the mix so often in those G1 races because they are the BEST there is, everyone has an opinion. Fair enough.

Just need to know that Tactics are completely different to Race fixing....

Natalie did nothing to help Amazing Dream in the NZ FFA last month when leading with Spankem (could of drifted out a bit to give it inside room) and wasn't gunna wait for her last Friday either with BEYOND WORDS. Great driving Nat !!!

 

[the galah]

All the above comments are the very reasons we had an operation Inca.

The continued blinkered justification of questionable drives leads to an environment in which what is acceptable and what is not becomes blurred. 

No doubt the very same  people who say there was nothing wrong with the mark purdon drive would be very same ones to criticise the stipes had they held purdon accountable.  They are also the very same ones that would have said there is nothing to see in the operation inca races,then have since criticised the stipes for not seeing at the time what the stipes later alleged.

I don't know why some people don't get it. When the stipes don't take action you create a mindset  and belief amongst some that what they are doing is in fact acceptable,when it clearly should not be.

When will some people wake up and realise that had the stipes dealt with  the operation inca races at the time,then most of those subsequently charged in operation inca would not have come under any scrutiny. 

At least i'm consistent. I made posts at the time in 3 of the operation inca races,calling for stipe action,when they apparently could not see what was obvious.Had the stipes taken the proper action at the time then it would all not have been that big a deal.

When i look at the mark purdon drive on amazing dream i ask myself,why can't everyone see how wrong that drive was? The only conclusion i can come to is they don't want to see it. They may well think i'm a know all,but sobeit as i have strong opinions when it comes to horses being driven on their merits.

[Noodlum]

3 minutes ago, the galah said:

When i look at the mark purdon drive on amazing dream i ask myself,why can't everyone see how wrong that drive was? The only conclusion i can come to is they don't want to see it. They may well think i'm a know all,but sobeit as i have strong opinions when it comes to horses being driven on their merits.

Perhaps because others don't see the drive as wrong.  What was wrong with it?  What were the options?  Did the horse have every chance?  If the drive was "wrong" who benefited?

Geez would have been a mug not to hand up at that stage.  The fact is if it was someone other than an All Star the questioning would be different.

[Karrots]

Peeps - why are we still debating this, it was like yesterdays news, no wait last Fridays hot topic. 16 days to go and it is the New Year. New year bringing new beginnings.

I liked the drives on Henry Hubert - T Williams and Classie Brigade, J Dunn in Green Mile, oh wait I have already said that. Oh well seemings we are just repeating ourselves.

Is this the new norm? Park that stablemate 🤠

[Karrots]

Oh yeah and Nats hot 🔥

And Brodie is a restricted punter. Come on Brodie - you have gone MIA. Come back. I miss your posts.

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

When i look at the mark purdon drive on amazing dream i ask myself,why can't everyone see how wrong that drive was? The only conclusion i can come to is they don't want to see it. They may well think i'm a know all,but sobeit as i have strong opinions when it comes to horses being driven on their merits.

I think everyone knows you are trying to say he should win the race as was on a 10-1 on shot. Wish it was that easy.

The problem for you is though Galah , not being a race driver I take it?  is that 1000 or more drivers (including myself) in the past, have taken a sit on the leader when drawn the one alley (NOT always behind such a good horse either like Beyond Words) and won the race or run a head second like Mark did ......

We CANNOT haul them all down to the local Police station on a race fixing charge , explaining to the local constable what went wrong if they were the head second. Mark is probably just as surprised as you he didn't win the race after the perfect trip in the trail .??  Bloody B WORDS charged up the home run too quick Bloody thing !!!

[Rangatira]

1 hour ago, Karrots said:

And Brodie is a restricted punter. Come on Brodie - you have gone MIA. Come back. I miss your posts.

convalescing after his identity crisis ?

[Karrots]

Hey Rangi
Yeah, I even heard your name. I think its mean. All of it. And I also think the name calling even directed at you is mean, no matter who it is from.

I especially don’t like mean direction at drivers or trainers etc that come on here to contribute. It would just put them off posting again on here. I like their input. I mean why would they if they will just be attacked. I personally, don’t hold grudges even if I disagree with someone on 1 subject. I challenged Chief on something recently. I hope he doesn't have the s..ts with me. I still respect him and like his posts. 

That is just my take. Each to their own.

I hope you are having a nice evening.

Logging off for the nite.

[Rangatira]

21 minutes ago, Karrots said:

Yeah, I even heard your name. I think its mean. All of it. And I also think the name calling even directed at you is mean, no matter who it is from.

 

[Taku Umanga]

7 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Usually RACE /MATCH fixing involves a financial windfall for the parties involved in the incident. 

 

[Taku Umanga]

Not necessarily - it's all about causing a loss to another ..... if a driver states to another driver, "I'll remember that" when he doesn't get his own way in a race and then intentionally does something in a later race that causes that other driver's horse to be disadvantaged, that is technically race or match fixing.

[Gammalite]

35 minutes ago, Taku Umanga said:

Not necessarily - it's all about causing a loss to another ..... if a driver states to another driver, "I'll remember that" when he doesn't get his own way in a race and then intentionally does something in a later race that causes that other driver's horse to be disadvantaged, that is technically race or match fixing.

Sort of Taku, .....You could come out of the gate with great determination and cross the front of the field squeezing some up , making some badly disadvantaged but it's not race fixing. just bad driving.

Your example is fine , BUT virtually every race, You as a driver, are trying to do something that makes the others Lose >>> whether you tell them or not. And you want them to be at a disadvantage. 

Match fixing is more Pre-determined and well planned Foul Play. Betting sheets are a giveaway and phone messages for that sort of thing

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Gammalite said:

I think everyone knows you are trying to say he should win the race as was on a 10-1 on shot. Wish it was that easy.

The problem for you is though Galah , not being a race driver I take it?  is that 1000 or more drivers (including myself) in the past, have taken a sit on the leader when drawn the one alley (NOT always behind such a good horse either like Beyond Words) and won the race or run a head second like Mark did ......

We CANNOT haul them all down to the local Police station on a race fixing charge , explaining to the local constable what went wrong if they were the head second. Mark is probably just as surprised as you he didn't win the race after the perfect trip in the trail .??  Bloody B WORDS charged up the home run too quick Bloody thing !!!

I don't think you need to have driven in races to have an appreciation of tactical nous. However I did some driving ,and was happy enough with my success rate,even though it was  on a small scale. I believe you drive to the horses strengths. The only time you would ever take a trail on what clearly was the best horse was if it raced best with cover. And we know form amazing dreams previous races that it is a great stayer and leader. I think everyone knows purdon gave his advantage away because it was a stablemate. And that seem pre planned as the  stablemate seemed fully aware it could get the lead as purdon was pulling back as soon as he saw it coming.

[hunterthepunter]

3 hours ago, Karrots said:

Oh yeah and Nats hot 🔥

 

lol. is that why big trev named a horse hot pants and gave her half share lol

[Gammalite]

3 minutes ago, the galah said:

I don't think you need to have driven in races to have an appreciation of tactical nous. However I did some driving ,and was happy enough with my success rate,even though it was  on a small scale. I believe you drive to the horses strengths. The only time you would ever take a trail on what clearly was the best horse was if it raced best with cover. And we know form amazing dreams previous races that it is a great stayer and leader. I think everyone knows purdon gave his advantage away because it was a stablemate. And that seem pre planned as the  stablemate seemed fully aware it could get the lead as purdon was pulling back as soon as he saw it coming.

Honestly mate, I'm with you in as the race panned out Mark didn't win and Therefore was probably better if he led as maybe would of won then? BUT his decision to take a trail is fine as well. If he won from there would you be grizzling ? probably not , you would say a good winning drive (I hope) 

EVERY race , a lot of drivers will say what they COULD OF DONE  but only one winner. 

There was a Group 1 in Brisbane last Sat. TURN IT UP (a triple Group 1 winner in NZ , that everyone here knows?) burned out of the barrier to lead easily .....

half way through he gave up the lead to KING OF SWING and race over!!!!  my goodness ,I was horrified as you were/are by Amazing Dream giving up  the lead) as my thoughts were A Triple G1 winner in the lead ! wow keep going mate !! leave that sucker parked but Noooooooo Shane Graham took a trail , and ran third. If he held lead might of Won?  or run last ? but the driver made his decision  I think he gave away the chance of winning , just like you think that with Mark and Amazing Dream. BUT it's not match/ race fixing. Just a tactic and/or raceplan

[hunterthepunter]

52 minutes ago, Taku Umanga said:

Not necessarily - it's all about causing a loss to another ..... 

like the horse that won four races out of 5 starts and got knobbled 

[the galah]

22 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Honestly mate, I'm with you in as the race panned out Mark didn't win and Therefore was probably better if he led as maybe would of won then? BUT his decision to take a trail is fine as well. If he won from there would you be grizzling ? probably not , you would say a good winning drive (I hope) 

EVERY race , a lot of drivers will say what they COULD OF DONE  but only one winner. 

There was a Group 1 in Brisbane last Sat. TURN IT UP (a triple Group 1 winner in NZ , that everyone here knows?) burned out of the barrier to lead easily .....

half way through he gave up the lead to KING OF SWING and race over!!!!  my goodness ,I was horrified as you were/are by Amazing Dream giving up  the lead) as my thoughts were A Triple G1 winner in the lead ! wow keep going mate !! leave that sucker parked but Noooooooo Shane Graham took a trail , and ran third. If he held lead might of Won?  or run last ? but the driver made his decision  I think he gave away the chance of winning , just like you think that with Mark and Amazing Dream. BUT it's not match/ race fixing. Just a tactic and/or raceplan

The difference of course is that he trailed  to help his other stable runners chances.

[Gammalite]

4 minutes ago, the galah said:

The difference of course is that he trailed  to help his other stable runners chances.

Definitely helped Nat more than leaving her parked out !!   heheheh unless you are Gammalite. (the legend)

Shane Graham was driving a Vicki Rasmussen / Allstars horse , surely in Cahoots with Luke to a degree??

They knew what they were doing heheh just like Mark and Nat. You don't expect them NOT to Know do you? 

[Gammalite]

8 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Definitely helped Nat more than leaving her parked out !!   heheheh unless you are Gammalite. (the legend)

Shane Graham was driving a Vicki Rasmussen / Allstars horse , surely in Cahoots with Luke to a degree??

They knew what they were doing heheh just like Mark and Nat. You don't expect them NOT to Know do you? 

and having said that Galah , in both these Group 1 races the plans and tactics resulted in the best possible outcome for the runners we are talking about, That is the name of the game !! Best possible outcome ????

Not quite the finishing order you or I wanted , but ALL right up there !!! and where were the rest ?  ?? nowhere