How thick are some drivers?

[Basil]

Apologies if somebody else has already mentioned this, but I was reminded of it after seeing Gammalite's thread on Wolfie and decided it's just too unbelievable not to have a thread of its own.

In R1 on Auckland Cup night, B Mangos was "spoken to advisedly for using his whip free of the rein". Ignoring that warning, he proceeded to do exactly the same thing in R2 and was given 3 days holiday. And if that weren't enough, he then got a further 6 days (until 12 Feb) for "using whip with more than a wrist flicking motion" in R7. Breaking the same rule (866-3) three times in one meeting must surely be some kind of record!

Is it possible he had a pre-booked holiday to Fiji and needed a convenient excuse for the extra 2 weeks in quarantine? Otherwise, it's (very) concerning to have a Premier meeting driver who's apparently incapable of learning. 

[Noodlum]

He's not the only top driver that has been caught.  Tim Williams got done too.

The new whip rules are dumb and certainly weren't developed by any decent horseman.

[Gammalite]

33 minutes ago, Basil said:

Apologies if somebody else has already mentioned this, but I was reminded of it after seeing Gammalite's thread on Wolfie and decided it's just too unbelievable not to have a thread of its own.

In R1 on Auckland Cup night, B Mangos was "spoken to advisedly for using his whip free of the rein". Ignoring that warning, he proceeded to do exactly the same thing in R2 and was given 3 days holiday. And if that weren't enough, he then got a further 6 days (until 12 Feb) for "using whip with more than a wrist flicking motion" in R7. Breaking the same rule (866-3) three times in one meeting must surely be some kind of record!

Is it possible he had a pre-booked holiday to Fiji and needed a convenient excuse for the extra 2 weeks in quarantine? Otherwise, it's (very) concerning to have a Premier meeting driver who's apparently incapable of learning. 

Whip driving is such an Interesting topic. !!! All punters want to see some 'effort' to get their 'Bets" home first.

Mangos has been around for Donkey years , sometimes it is hard not to be tempted to 'Chase' harder ?? with whip.

The horse Gammalite had 90 wins (15 Group1's) a record. without Hard Whip driving , might of won 10 races (no group1's) and been battling with Spitfire on the Nelson circuit. ........lol.

In the 90's as the whip rules changed in QLD , Many , many drivers retired (including myself) as just couldn't change to a 'wrist flicking motion" if that is the requirement. DixonSnr,  Thomas , McMullenSnr, Belford, Dickson, Nieman winnners of thousands of races ALL GONE in the 90's. The Stewards LITERALLY came down the stable area after races , Looking for welts on the Horses Bums !!!!!!!!!!!   I swear that's true !!! many fines and suspensions then. So NOT JUST NOWADAYS has the whip been a Problem?.

NOWADAYS , no BIG men left, just fine jockey size Boys and girls , that just let them run. NO pulling horses these days......

[Roman]

1 hour ago, Basil said:

Apologies if somebody else has already mentioned this, but I was reminded of it after seeing Gammalite's thread on Wolfie and decided it's just too unbelievable not to have a thread of its own.

In R1 on Auckland Cup night, B Mangos was "spoken to advisedly for using his whip free of the rein". Ignoring that warning, he proceeded to do exactly the same thing in R2 and was given 3 days holiday. And if that weren't enough, he then got a further 6 days (until 12 Feb) for "using whip with more than a wrist flicking motion" in R7. Breaking the same rule (866-3) three times in one meeting must surely be some kind of record!

Is it possible he had a pre-booked holiday to Fiji and needed a convenient excuse for the extra 2 weeks in quarantine? Otherwise, it's (very) concerning to have a Premier meeting driver who's apparently incapable of learning. 

How many times do drivers get warned before fine and/or a holiday? Noticed on the coast circuit there was 1 or 2 people to be warned on separate days

[Rangatira]

44 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

He's not the only top driver that has been caught.  Tim Williams got done too.

The new whip rules are dumb and certainly weren't developed by any decent horseman.

i seem to recall the brodster on more than one occasion was calling for the end to the previous rule

was he involved in writing the current rule

[Noodlum]

2 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

i seem to recall the brodster on more than one occasion was calling for the end to the previous rule

was he involved in writing the current rule

Isn't the rule just a copy of the Ozzie rule? 

[Brodie]

1 hour ago, Rangatira said:

i seem to recall the brodster on more than one occasion was calling for the end to the previous rule

was he involved in writing the current rule

Brodster, has no problem with the original rule and SAFE has no problem with it either.

The Dickheads that are protesting about a few greyhounds being put down and Rodeo’s need to pull their heads in!

They would be better spending their time protesting about human issues!!

 

[Basil]

21 hours ago, Roman said:

How many times do drivers get warned before fine and/or a holiday? Noticed on the coast circuit there was 1 or 2 people to be warned on separate days

A very good question, which I've spent a couple of hours trying to answer.  Here are the facts. For Canterbury meetings (and only Canterbury) held between 1 October and 31 December, I count a total of 261 breaches of the new whip rules committed by 90 drivers. Only six of these resulted in any kind of sanction (fine or suspension), i.e., just a 2.3% penalty rate, or to answer the original question — about 45 warnings for every penalty!

 

Of course, half of the offenses are committed by drivers with just 1-2 breaches, which is what you'd expect from a group with ingrained habits trying to adapt to new rules. 

However, the other half is due to a much smaller group of serial offenders who, like B Mangos in the North, appear to have learning difficulties, but (unlike B Mangos) have largely escaped unscathed.  This Hall of Shame is:  

J Curtin (12 breaches, 1 penalty)   

R Holmes (10, 1)

C De Filippi (9, 1)

K Newman (9, 0 — from a maximum of just 81 drives!) 

R May (8, 0)

T Chmiel (7, 0)

R Close (7, 0)

S Ottley (7, 0)

G Smith (7, 0)

K Butt (6, 0)

J Dunn (6, 0)

B Butt (6, 1)

B Hope (6, 0)

K Barron (5, 0)

S McNally (5, 0)

A Fitzgerald (5, 0)

S Tomlinson (5, 0)

P Davis (5, 0)

K Cameron (5, 0)

 

All up, a total of 130 offenses and just four sanctions — a penalty rate of only 3.2% for a group of 19 persistent offenders. Even more strikingly, with the exception of the suspension handed out to B Butt on Show Day, the penalties have all been $200 fines, which are unlikely to be much of a deterrent.

 

19 hours ago, Brodie said:

Brodster, has no problem with the original rule and SAFE has no problem with it either.

 

An intriguing comment, insofar as it's totally at odds with the SAFE response that I posted some time ago, following earlier Brodie denials. 'The Brodster's' capacity to ignore facts he doesn't like is unparalleled anywhere outside the Green Party.

[Brodie]

5 minutes ago, Basil said:

A very good question, which I've spent a couple of hours trying to answer.  Here are the facts. For Canterbury meetings (and only Canterbury) held between 1 October and 31 December, I count a total of 261 breaches of the new whip rules committed by 90 drivers. Only six of these resulted in any kind of sanction (fine or suspension), i.e., just a 2.3% penalty rate, or to answer the original question — about 45 warnings for every penalty!

 

Of course, half of the offenses are committed by drivers with just 1-2 breaches, which is what you'd expect from a group with ingrained habits trying to adapt to new rules. 

 

 

However, the other half is due to a much smaller group of serial offenders who, like B Mangos in the North, appear to have learning difficulties, but (unlike B Mangos) have largely escaped unscathed.  This Hall of Shame is:  

 

J Curtin (12 breaches, 1 penalty)   

 

R Holmes (10, 1)

 

C De Filippi (9, 1)

 

K Newman (9, 0 — from a maximum of just 81 drives!) 

 

R May (8, 0)

 

T Chmiel (7, 0)

 

R Close (7, 0)

 

S Ottley (7, 0)

 

G Smith (7, 0)

 

K Butt (6, 0)

 

J Dunn (6, 0)

 

B Butt (6, 1)

 

B Hope (6, 0)

 

K Barron (5, 0)

 

S McNally (5, 0)

 

A Fitzgerald (5, 0)

 

S Tomlinson (5, 0)

 

P Davis (5, 0)

 

K Cameron (5, 0)

 

 

 

All up, a total of 130 offenses and just four sanctions — a penalty rate of only 3.2% for a group of 19 persistent offenders. Even more strikingly, with the exception of the suspension handed out to B Butt on Show Day, the penalties have all been $200 fines, which are unlikely to be much of a deterrent.

 

An intriguing comment, insofar as it's totally at odds with the SAFE response that I posted some time ago, following earlier Brodie denials. 'The Brodster's' capacity to ignore facts he doesn't like is unparalleled anywhere outside the Green Party.

Basil, Happy New Year to you and your Greeny mates.

The fact that there have been so many infringements is clearly showing that the rules being brought in are not being accepted by our best horse people.

Can you kindly show us what you have from SAFE that shows that they have an issue with the harness whip!!!!

Why should harness have to answer to a group called SAFE who are generally a bunch of under achievers who are on welfare in NZ?

[Rangatira]

4 minutes ago, Brodie said:

a group called SAFE who are generally a bunch of under achievers who are on welfare in NZ?

can you kindly show us what you have to support this assertion 

[Gammalite]

12 minutes ago, Basil said:

All up, a total of 130 offenses and just four sanctions — a penalty rate of only 3.2% for a group of 19 persistent offenders

Well Basil, the Northern stewards did 'React" for you and suspended Tim Williams AND Sam Ottley in the GROUP 1 Cadueus Club 3 year old classic on December 11 at Alex park. 

Horse shit decision as 2 'senior'drivers fighting out a GROUP 1 , and they are Penalised ??? A chance for the miracle of someone staving off the ALLstars in a GROUP 1. and the dumbass stewards step in with crap rules. .....

Should of thrown the Kitchen Sink at it Sam !!  (La Rosa) as might of got the 60k first prize, and got suspended anyway.

[Brodie]

46 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

can you kindly show us what you have to support this assertion 

Have a look at them Ranga!

Many could do with a jolly good shower and haircut and a pair of shoes rather than sandels and socks!

[Brodie]

43 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Well Basil, the Northern stewards did 'React" for you and suspended Tim Williams AND Sam Ottley in the GROUP 1 Cadueus Club 3 year old classic on December 11 at Alex park. 

Horse shit decision as 2 'senior'drivers fighting out a GROUP 1 , and they are Penalised ??? A chance for the miracle of someone staving off the ALLstars in a GROUP 1. and the dumbass stewards step in with crap rules. .....

Should of thrown the Kitchen Sink at it Sam !!  (La Rosa) as might of got the 60k first prize, and got suspended anyway.

Gammalite, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the rule of Stipes looking into it if they thought that a driver was too vigorous with the whip!

Then Rennell expressed his own opinion that he didnt like the whip and brought in without thought, the stupid 10 hit whip rule, which was a shocking rule.

Then they realised that they had been dumb in rushing that in, and changed it to what it currently is, which is better but still stupid!

HRNZ panicked when there was no need to as SAFE have no agenda on harness whip use, they are more worried about Greyhounds, pigs, chickens, rodeos etc.

They would be far better off put their energies into human issues like babies being mistreated by their parents who should have a license to have kids!!!!!

[Karrots]

1 hour ago, Basil said:

This Hall of Shame is:  

J Curtin (12 breaches, 1 penalty)   R Holmes (10, 1)C De Filippi (9, 1)

K Newman (9, 0 — from a maximum of just 81 drives!) 

R May (8, 0)

T Chmiel (7, 0)

R Close (7, 0)

S Ottley (7, 0)

G Smith (7, 0)

K Butt (6, 0)

J Dunn (6, 0)

B Butt (6, 1)

B Hope (6, 0)

K Barron (5, 0)

S McNally (5, 0)

A Fitzgerald (5, 0)

S Tomlinson (5, 0)

P Davis (5, 0)

K Cameron (5, 0)

 

Wow, Basil, nice research, the naughty naughty hey, be like on the game of thrones, in shame shame scene.

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by Karrots

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Brodie said:

Gammalite, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the rule of Stipes looking into it if they thought that a driver was too vigorous with the whip!

Yeah I know, you need 'some' rules. I just see the 'Conflict of interest' by Stipes too much unfortunately.

i.e want you to achieve best possible finishing position, BUT penalise you If you TRY TOO HARD.

What I am saying is IMO Tim Williams and Sam Ottley in the race where they got suspended WERE NOT particularly vigourous at all , and being a GROUP 1 ,, well ,,,,aren't you doing everything you can to win it . Rare Chance indeed

At Rangiora this Sunday , some drivers will be coming up the home straight ,looking like they are Nursing a BABY !!and putting it down to sleep.     ............... Fine by me. (I won't be backing them)

But a Group 1 , wow, I reckon you just go for it !!!!   (ask Michael Walker)

Basil called Mangos Thick to lead this thread. A little unfair assertion I felt.

I Think ,Mangos must of been trying too hard . (conflict of interest ?)  

[Brodie]

Basil is a believer that there doesnt need to be a whip!

He is one of the very few in harness racing that doesnt think there should be whips!

Oz hasnt banished wips quite the opposite, they are even more aggressive and vigorous than NZ!

Basil clearly doesnt eat meat as he feels for all animals!

[Karrots]

20 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Yeah I know, you need 'some' rules. I just see the 'Conflict of interest' by Stipes too much unfortunately.

i.e want you to achieve best possible finishing position, BUT penalise you If you TRY TOO HARD.

What I am saying is IMO Tim Williams and Sam Ottley in the race where they got suspended WERE NOT particularly vigourous at all , and being a GROUP 1 ,, well ,,,,aren't you doing everything you can to win it . Rare Chance indeed

At Rangiora this Sunday , some drivers will be coming up the home straight ,looking like they are Nursing a BABY !!and putting it down to sleep.     ............... Fine by me. (I won't be backing them)

But a Group 1 , wow, I reckon you just go for it !!!!   (ask Michael Walker)

Basil called Mangos Thick to lead this thread. A little unfair assertion I felt.

I Think ,Mangos must of been trying too hard . (conflict of interest ?)  

I tried to stay out of this debate, mostly, without expressing an opinion as know it is a hot subject. Its summer holidays, so Karrots time on hands thinking horsey horseys. So, now entering in, both sides have put forward good debates.

On the fence eg, rules are made and they must be followed - break that rule and you disrespect the rule and those that abide by it and those that made it. (shame - shame)

On the other hand - I try to put myself as a driver and I want to win, I shake the reins a bit too much, for a bit too long because maybe the excitement, lost in the moment, the adrenaline, the crowd at Group 1 level, my competitor is doing the same. And shoot a duck, I have broken the rule. 

In saying that I remember M Purdon, lost his whip early down the straight in a race with Self Assured, and SA just strolled past them anyway, that made me think, ok, no whip was needed here, and he went past some nice OC horses in that race I might add. 

Also didn't the winner of the Mel Cup jockey make a point to say they particularly made a count of the whip rule and was talking in the ear & encouraging the horse in other ways, oppose striking again, as would of broke that rule.  Either this recent cup or last years cup. Didnt the lass in Ride Like a Girl doesn't she try to get them to run for her, in other ways other than just the whip? 

It is def a tricky one. I personally do not like to see horses being beaten/savaged. Iv said that before. Encouraged yes - beaten no. In saying that if I have a bet & there is little encouragement I get RAGE - but still don't want to see the horse beaten - encouraged yes. But to what limit is that exactly ... ? What is ok and what isn't ...

I can see both sides. Its tricky.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Karrots

[Gammalite]

2 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Basil is a believer that there doesnt need to be a whip!

He is one of the very few in harness racing that doesnt think there should be whips!

Oz hasnt banished wips quite the opposite, they are even more aggressive and vigorous than NZ!

Basil clearly doesnt eat meat as he feels for all animals!

Oh Ok I see ...  yeah that whip thing been around a long time. Some people pay for it (a good whipping).....lol.

I break horses in with a long whip , very useful tool. Horses are sort of used to it from the get-go. 

I think abuse is almost zero as far as I have seen, in Harness racing. and even thoroughbred racing. People love these horses  !!  Basil should be assured of that. They are treated and groomed better than the stable people mostly. ...

 

[Gammalite]

15 minutes ago, Karrots said:

I tried to stay out of this debate, mostly, without expressing an opinion as know it is a hot subject. Its summer holidays, so Karrots time on hands thinking horsey horseys. So, now entering in, both sides have put forward good debates.

On the fence eg, rules are made and they must be followed - break that rule and you disrespect the rule and those that abide by it and those that made it. (shame - shame)

On the other hand - I try to put myself as a driver and I want to win, I shake the reins a bit too much, for a bit too long because maybe the excitement, lost in the moment, the adrenaline, the crowd at Group 1 level, my competitor is doing the same. And shoot a duck, I have broken the rule. 

In saying that I remember M Purdon, lost his whip early down the straight in a race with Self Assured, and SA just strolled past them anyway, that made me think, ok, no whip was needed here, and he went past some nice OC horses in that race I might add. 

Also didn't the winner of the Mel Cup jockey make a point to say they particularly made a count of the whip rule and was talking in the ear to the horse and was encouraging the horse in other ways, oppose striking again, as would of broke that rule?  Either for this recent cup or last years cup? Didnt the lass in Ride Like a Girl doesn't she try to get them to run for her, in other ways other than just the whip? 

It is def a tricky one. I personally do not like to see horses being beaten. Iv said that before. Encouraged yes - beaten no. And if I have a bet & there is little encouragement I get RAGE. I can see both sides. Its tricky.

What an excellent lot of points here Karrots !! each very well explained. 

Yes RULES are definitely there for a reason. and times have changed.

and you (and Basil) are right , They should be followed. 

Maybe TRY a WHIPFREE race and see what happens ???   ASK the drivers?

Horses have responded to vigorous driving/ riding in the past to get good results. No one wants to see any abuse of any animals , so a RAISED ARM and the threat of 'Pain' to the animal is Just NOT acceptable this century.

Hence as I mentioned several drivers retired and some Jockeys (jockey vigour and style) retired to history as well. Dittman, Jim Cassidy and Shane Dye rode lots with vigour, but now the more 'Eloquent" Jamie KAH and Nat Rasmussen are shining the light for their sports , horses,  and results. !!!  (and of course the Ladies !!!)

 

[Karrots]

11 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

What an excellent lot of points here Karrots !! each very well explained. 

Yes RULES are definitely there for a reason. and times have changed.

and you (and Basil) are right , They should be followed. 

Maybe TRY a WHIPFREE race and see what happens ???   ASK the drivers?

Hey Gamms, golly no way, would I want to see a encourager free (my new word for whip) race. Meaning, safety for drivers is paramount. And the encourager would be needed. 

Maybe we could invite a current driver into the convo @AndrewFitzgerald Iv discovered this tag, not sure if it even works.

Yes times change, imagine if woman were still not allowed the right to vote ☹️ Or if we still used the horse as our main means of transport, (I would not be able to reply to your message now, as I would of already have had to have left for my dinner out tonight lol). Its just takes time to accept change, and blend it so that it is a balance of what works and what doesn't within reason of that time period. 

[Roman]

You also get fined for yelling "CHARGE!!!!!" as the mobile pulls away, as you blast the gate. So you cant yell at a horse either...

[Gammalite]

38 minutes ago, Karrots said:

Hey Gamms, golly no way, would I want to see a encourager free (my new word for whip) race. Meaning, safety for drivers is paramount. And the encourager would be needed. 

Maybe we could invite a current driver into the convo @AndrewFitzgerald Iv discovered this tag, not sure if it even works.

Yes times change, imagine if woman were still not allowed the right to vote ☹️ Or if we still used the horse as our main means of transport, (I would not be able to reply to your message now, as I would of already have had to have left for my dinner out tonight lol). Its just takes time to accept change, and blend it so that it is a balance of what works and what doesn't within reason of that time period. 

Well that is a huge Plus for the' less Vigour ' Whip rules is  that the young women behind the scenes are now right on the pace and No predjudice against female jockeys and drivers remains.  How good is that.

Vic and Qld harness races full of young ladies now, and they win more than the blokes on average I reckon.

At the Gallops Jamie Kah leads the prestigious Vic metro premiership, 1/2 the fields in SA metro thoroughbreds are female riders and at the trots Danielle Hill (even with one eye now after a crash) still goes round winning heaps. 

And Sydney (big boys club) has been broken down too, with Kathy O'hara and Rachael King winning regularly on Saturday metro these days. The NZ female jockeys and drivers absolutely doing Great Job too !!!

esp Natalie Rass ! she's from both countries.....lol   AND Winning Interdominions in and for both countries !!!!   

only Gammalite can match that with Interdominions wins in both countries. ........hehehhe

Nat and Gammalite ,,,, a match made in heaven lol .... sigh.

 

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

Maybe TRY a WHIPFREE race and see what happens ???   ASK the drivers?

Racing Victoria (Thoroughbreds) promoted a series of races recently without consuling trainers and Jockey's.  The backlash was so great that they had to backtrack and cancel the idea.

[Gammalite]

4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Racing Victoria (Thoroughbreds) promoted a series of races recently without consuling trainers and Jockey's.  The backlash was so great that they had to backtrack and cancel the idea.

Well when you watch the fantastic camera work of the NZ trots , as the brilliant cameraman zooms in on the runner as the commentator says it's name going through the field , You can notice the whip placing /work of the drivers during Mid-contest to keep horses minds on job and 'Trailing up' well. Exceptional work when you watch it closely.

So would be hopeless to throw it away all togeather , as would lose all that.

Poor Jockeys, HOW ON EARTH are you supposed to count whip strikes in a race, craaaaazyyy. You've got jocks or drivers all around you , trying to mug ya , beat you for a run and to the post .....  one two, three , one two three ....

well it's not a dance , and counting is Not Really on your Mind ...lol...

Gammalite the horse had    3533  whip strikes on the bum across his 180 odd race starts ..... glad we weren't counting at the trots last century hehehe.

[Unhinged]

6 hours ago, Basil said:

A very good question, which I've spent a couple of hours trying to answer.  Here are the facts. For Canterbury meetings (and only Canterbury) held between 1 October and 31 December, I count a total of 261 breaches of the new whip rules committed by 90 drivers. Only six of these resulted in any kind of sanction (fine or suspension), i.e., just a 2.3% penalty rate, or to answer the original question — about 45 warnings for every penalty!

 

Of course, half of the offenses are committed by drivers with just 1-2 breaches, which is what you'd expect from a group with ingrained habits trying to adapt to new rules. 

 

 

However, the other half is due to a much smaller group of serial offenders who, like B Mangos in the North, appear to have learning difficulties, but (unlike B Mangos) have largely escaped unscathed.  This Hall of Shame is:  

 

J Curtin (12 breaches, 1 penalty)   

 

R Holmes (10, 1)

 

C De Filippi (9, 1)

 

K Newman (9, 0 — from a maximum of just 81 drives!) 

 

R May (8, 0)

 

T Chmiel (7, 0)

 

R Close (7, 0)

 

S Ottley (7, 0)

 

G Smith (7, 0)

 

K Butt (6, 0)

 

J Dunn (6, 0)

 

B Butt (6, 1)

 

B Hope (6, 0)

 

K Barron (5, 0)

 

S McNally (5, 0)

 

A Fitzgerald (5, 0)

 

S Tomlinson (5, 0)

 

P Davis (5, 0)

 

K Cameron (5, 0)

 

 

 

All up, a total of 130 offenses and just four sanctions — a penalty rate of only 3.2% for a group of 19 persistent offenders. Even more strikingly, with the exception of the suspension handed out to B Butt on Show Day, the penalties have all been $200 fines, which are unlikely to be much of a deterrent.

 

An intriguing comment, insofar as it's totally at odds with the SAFE response that I posted some time ago, following earlier Brodie denials. 'The Brodster's' capacity to ignore facts he doesn't like is unparalleled anywhere outside the Green Party.

They did make it pretty clear for the first month it would be a big learning curve for the stipes and drivers and there were plenty of warnings. I would be very interested in your report for the next couple of months and maybe put in total drives. Good work Basil.