Thomass Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 One word WFA! So the ICONIC NZ Handicaps like the Telegraph and Railway were legendary in providing sensational even racing with large fields...usually 18 across the straight legish 6 on the Champagne turf... Then the Breeders got hold of the Pattern Committee, when the International rating dropped, and the Set Weights and F All Penalties were introduced as a sop.... ..but that didn't help at all So WFA it was and the best usually wins...and what a bore fest it was... They might as well told everyone to stay home and well just put the money straight into Avantage's Bank Account WTF cares if it's a G 1, apart from the Breeders? We have wayyy too many G 1's anyway Listen Bernie...just knock some heads together and reintroduce our ICONIC Handicaps...like the Donny and the Epsom in Oz ...can you imagine the Aussies getting rid of those? There'd be riots in the Capitol if they did... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 I know I tend to disagree with you often Thomass but I have to do so again. I agree that the Breeders have stuffed up our pattern of racing especially with the 2kg female allowance. The fact is the problem is deeper than just the conditions for a particular race. It is our handicapping system in general. Even if you switched those WFA's back to Handicaps you will find that Avantage would still have an advantage (nice pun eh?). The system drives the good hardened handicappers out of the game. Who wants to see Rating 80 horses carrying 50kg's winning our Premier Races? As for Avantage's win yesterday? Would have taken a bloody good horse to beat her! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumbles Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 Field size made the race virtually unable for a jock to say they were unlucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 Agree re. handicapping system. But, the purist in me, regardless, doesn't think that Grp 1 or 2 should be attached to a handicap. Grp 3, listed, perhaps. The piss up would still happen on Melbourne Cup day irrespective of what rating it had. The money is huge and the best that can be obtained, turn up for the race. It certainly isn't about stud value, many competitors are geldings anyway and it has been long thought that staying handicaps won by an entire will see that horse relegated to National Hunt status. Even Vadamos has joined that queue. To quote : handicaps are for betting , WFA is to determine best of breed/crop. Different aims all the way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumbles Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 4 minutes ago, Freda said: Agree re. handicapping system. But, the purist in me, regardless, doesn't think that Grp 1 or 2 should be attached to a handicap. Grp 3, listed, perhaps. The piss up would still happen on Melbourne Cup day irrespective of what rating it had. The money is huge and the best that can be obtained, turn up for the race. It certainly isn't about stud value, many competitors are geldings anyway and it has been long thought that staying handicaps won by an entire will see that horse relegated to National Hunt status. Even Vadamos has joined that queue. To quote : handicaps are for betting , WFA is to determine best of breed/crop. Different aims all the way. Would it work with WFA races only being for fillies,mares,colts and entires given WFA is for best of breed and crop.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 7 minutes ago, mumbles said: Would it work with WFA races only being for fillies,mares,colts and entires given WFA is for best of breed and crop.? Not here, I wouldn't think...but it is the way it is done in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 16, 2021 Author Share Posted January 16, 2021 47 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: I know I tend to disagree with you often Thomass but I have to do so again. I agree that the Breeders have stuffed up our pattern of racing especially with the 2kg female allowance. The fact is the problem is deeper than just the conditions for a particular race. It is our handicapping system in general. Even if you switched those WFA's back to Handicaps you will find that Avantage would still have an advantage (nice pun eh?). The system drives the good hardened handicappers out of the game. Who wants to see Rating 80 horses carrying 50kg's winning our Premier Races? As for Avantage's win yesterday? Would have taken a bloody good horse to beat her! Oh...utter CRAP Havent you seen the "hardened handicappers" winning holus f in bolus these days? GENEROUSLY and I mean GENEROUSLY treated from the top of the 'handicap'...not mares either Avantage would have been giving at least 8 kgs away to the bottom of a Handicap... WFA racing produces the best agin the best with the very best almost always winning given all things being equal When it comes to generating income...HANDICAP racing is where it's at Everyone knows that.....and getting rid of ICONIC Handicaps to maintain a fake Group of very few superior horses such as MELODY BELLE and AVANTAGE simply turning up to win, almost every time, is a borefest.... ...with massive turnover drops...just to satisfy the Breeders lust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 Just now, Thomass said: Avantage would have been giving at least 8 kgs away to the bottom of a Handicap... She still would have won and could have carried half the field on her back given she could win an equine body builder title! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 The problem with making these races handicaps is that we have a large gap between our very best and the rest , plus our pool of the very best is not that big . So Avantage , with her record , would be weighted out of it and the G1 would be left to be fought out by a bunch of nice , but not top class horses , then could it still be called a genuine G1 . So we have to have these races at WFA or SW&P's to keep these top horses racing here . I remember when our top sprints and staying races had 10 or more horses of the quality of Avantage running in them . Feeling old . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 7 minutes ago, nomates said: I remember when our top sprints and staying races had 10 or more horses of the quality of Avantage running in them . Let me guess - Copper Belt, Grey Way, Blue Blood....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said: Let me guess - Copper Belt, Grey Way, Blue Blood....... Mop , Soliloquy , Balmerino , Ajasco , Good Lord . Crickey i could be hear all day . Mustn't forget my boy hood crush , Kings Romance , ah i'm getting all tingly . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 One things for sure , you never seen $1.65 favs in G1 races , or very very rarely . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 You must say that Avantage is class though. 1:06 and change over 1200m. 2:02 for 2000m at Ellerslie of all places! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 I agree its a rock and hard place really as to how racing in this country is developing. What confuses me is how a 4 times G1 winning mare can be effectively rated the same as a G2 winning gelding on the rating system. i.e. Avantage 109 , TM 105 , mares allowance in Open handicap carry the same weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Centaur Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 2 hours ago, nomates said: Mop , Soliloquy , Balmerino , Ajasco , Good Lord . Crickey i could be hear all day . Mustn't forget my boy hood crush , Kings Romance , ah i'm getting all tingly . Interesting Kings Romance never won the Telegraph. Having seen every Telegraph either in person or TV since 1963 I would rate Sharivari as the most notable. Since the race went WFA I get the feeling the quality of the winner has diminished. Always thought Enzo's Lad winning twice was a fluke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 27 minutes ago, The Centaur said: Interesting Kings Romance never won the Telegraph. Having seen every Telegraph either in person or TV since 1963 I would rate Sharivari as the most notable. He won a Thibenzole at Te Rapa and the George Adams at Trentham . Looked after Sharivari in his later years at stud , lovely old gentleman . 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Centaur Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 4 hours ago, nomates said: He won a Thibenzole at Te Rapa and the George Adams at Trentham . Looked after Sharivari in his later years at stud , lovely old gentleman . I used to see Kings Romance doing trackwork. The elderly guy who owned him loved a big punt. Distinctly remember one morning Malcolm Smith crowing how smart he was putting an apprentice up freshup which meant most punters thought he might need a run. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 27, 2021 Author Share Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) And add The Thorndon as well... Completely f'd a previously superb Iconic Handicap....to Set Weight and F All Penalty THE MITIGATOR giving MELODY BELLE a Kg with 8 runners F me....just deliver the Cheque now and don't even bother turning up to waste good people's time... This attempt to compete with the rest of the World trying to prove ALL G 1's are seemless has to STOP NOW We're not competitive and haven't been for years in G 1 strength...end of Edited January 27, 2021 by Thomass 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Thomass said: And add The Thorndon as well... Completely f'd a previously superb Iconic Handicap....to Set Weight and F All Penalty THE MITIGATOR giving MELODY BELLE a Kg with 8 runners F me....just deliver the Cheque now and don't even bother turning up to waste good people's time... This attempt to compete with the rest of the World trying to prove ALL G 1's are seemless has to STOP NOW We're not competitive and haven't been for years in G 1 strength...end of Agree , shows a complete misunderstanding of the fundamentals of placing horses, the race is a joke this year. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 The crowd size is going to be interesting , first two days beyond dismal and i think the first days racing was better than this week . I'm sure the piss up artists will be out but how many others ? Not that long ago you could hardly move on cup day . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 Now i've just read that Super Strike wasn't even considered for the Thorndon , why ? , would have been so badly off under the conditions . How many times has the Anniversary winner gone on and done the double , used to be one of the highlights of the carnival . On top of that why do they still call one race the Duoro cup , it used to hold a special place for promising young horses on the up , no more just another rating race with a similar stake to the others , pointless . 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 6 minutes ago, nomates said: The crowd size is going to be interesting , first two days beyond dismal and i think the first days racing was better than this week . I'm sure the piss up artists will be out but how many others ? Not that long ago you could hardly move on cup day . You'd have to think this is the day they'd go to , still a few races there of interest but the big 2 this year are a hard look. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 The Excitement on the day was the anticipation of the big double and the rest of the races were just filling in the gaps for most , but now although there is some interest of the clash of MB and RoW , what else is there , the fillies race probably holds the most interest for me as there a couple of fillies i think are better than average , but the rest of the card is , YAWN . We're going to Wgtn for the weekend and the intention was to stop off for a few races before heading into town , but now not so sure now , we have to pay now that we don't hold any licences , i don't begrudge paying but gees not great value for money for mine . Might just put my bets on before leaving home and recording them to watch on Sunday . At least i have great memories of times gone . I still have a picture in my head of , Blue Blood , Mop and Panagor flashing across the line and the crowd buzzing because no one knew who had got it . AAAHHH memories . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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